Is it finally time to switch? (side to drive on)

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

So it's probably time to have a real conversation about this and maybe even with enough support lobby for change.

With the U.K left the E.U, is it finally time that we adapted with the other 95% of Europe and switch to driving on the right hand side of the road ?

many benifits will include,
more avalibiltiy of cars and better selection for Ireland (Most of our cars coming from europe now with the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Peugeot, Citreon etc) and of course you'll still get your toyotas and honda too. don't forget they mass produce for the rest of the world too in Left Hand Drive !

Transport of freight and goods.
Already there are trucks in Ireland that are on Irish plates but in L.H.D, this is because they spent most of their time in Europe. Also the other way around are European trucks on Irish roads in L.H.D. Some argue this is dangerserous and it may be to a degree with massive blind spots etc. so switiching would ease this burdon. I also know of a very big truck operator in Dublin who actually recently inported an american Volvo truck too.

could open up more trade with the E.U and also simplify rules across ireland and europe. with traffic laws, rules of road etc and have a standerd system.

I suppose a lot of this will be based around cars and being able to choose from Europe which car you want to use for yourself without being restricted to the U.K.

Even to switch over rail wouldn't take a lot since we've doors on both sides and signals seem to go both ways for the most part.

the downside, well a lot of people annoyed with their right hand drive cars having to change.

another con would be the entire bus network would need a new fleet to accomdate the other side of the road doors but again current fleet can be sold at not too much of a lose and because we'll be buying common european buses they should be able to got cheaper, especially in bulk.

so thoughts and opinions on this ?

personally I believe it's time this finally happened and with then U.K out of the picture it should make it a lot easier.

colm_mcm

This thread again

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

colm_mcm wrote: »

This thread again

Apologies, I've been asleep for some time :pac:

but I do think with the U.K gone from Europe its a chance for Ireland to better itself and be able to substain itself better without them. A big change like this could be the message

0lddog

Topic should be included in a review to support autonomous vehicles

bazz26

Our cars here are currently some of the cheapest in Europe pre tax. It's our tax that's the killer, switching to LHD won't change that unless the tax situation is overhauled and that's not going to happen. This pandemic has to be paid for yet.

Even if we did what about the cost of switching over the national fleet? Who pays for that? The tax payer? What about private companies who have to convert their fleets and adopt their premises for LHD premises, that cost will be passed on to the consumer. What happens all the RHD cars already here especially those who cannot afford to go out and buy a LHD car? Does everyone get a free first LHD car or do we let people learn to drive on the right in their existing RHD cars? That would be a disaster.

All this to save a few quid on a car that will still end up being heavily taxed to be put on Irish plates.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

bazz26 wrote: »

Our cars here are currently some of the cheapest in Europe pre tax. It's our tax that's the killer, switching to LHD won't change that unless the tax situation is overhauled and that's not going to happen. This pandemic has to be paid for yet.

Even if we did what about the cost of switching over the national fleet? Who pays for that? The tax payer? What about private companies who have to convert their fleets and adopt their premises for LHD premises, that cost will be passed on to the consumer. What happens all the RHD cars already here especially those who cannot afford to go out and buy a LHD car? Does everyone get a free first LHD car or do we let people learn to drive on the right in their existing RHD cars? That would be a disaster.

All this to save a few quid on a car that will still end up being heavily taxed to be put on Irish plates.

Our cars i dont think are the cheapest pre tax ? If BMW are building brand new cars in bulk for the European market then it'll be cheaper than having to produce a R.H.D version for the little island off europe, I'm sure it would be an awful lot cheaper for them and any other manufacturers to just mass produce in bulk one standerd car and ship it everywhere. many pros of that being cheaper to produce and they will also most likely come with more luxury features.

The tax payer has always paid for the fleet regardless. like I say, sell off the current fleet and again very commen and very competitve market from Europe to replace the current fleet and it shouldn't cost a bomb.

I don't think theres much adaption for premises to change. I'm assuming you mean the likes of toll Booths, Drive-thrus etc. they are very easily adaptable. Drive thrus is simply drive in the other side. Toll booths can be set with an addational window, but then again another prime oppertunity there to adapt the M50 system for toll roads, pay by app later or in shop.

People will learn, when they get into the other side of the car the penny will drop what they need to do. if they really do struggle or have a hard time trying to figure it out, then maybe its for the better they dont drive. any person with a full licence shouldnt be afraid to jump into a car while on holiday and go for a drive, common sense etc shoud prevail.

its not just about saving a few quid on a new car, its the bigger picture too. can actually reduce accidents. I dunno how many times i've read of a tourist in ireland causing an accident but its too many. same with our european neighbors coming over in their own cars, theyve caused many an accident too. all preventable.

bazz26

But they are building them for the UK market anyway. The UK might have left the EU but they still buy cars. BMW UK and BMW Ireland are the same distributor so we get the same base specs as the UK from the factory, the only difference being that options are not taxed as much in the UK as they are here.

And as for it costing not much to redesign a drive thru? What about all those multistory car parks out there, what about the motorways, slip roads, road signs etc? It all adds up. And I don't agree that people will learn, many still haven't mastered driving on the current side of the road. Also are you suggesting that we should change to driving on the other side of the road to prevent European tourists from having accidents here? What about the Brits visiting here, what about the North, more of them probably visit here more than our Continental cousins.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

bazz26 wrote: »

But they are building them for the UK market anyway. The UK might have left the EU but they still buy cars. BMW UK and BMW Ireland are the same distributor so we get the same base specs as the UK from the factory, the only difference being that options are not taxed as much in the UK as they are here.

And as for it costing not much to redesign a drive thru? What about all those multistory car parks out there, what about the motorways, slip roads, road signs etc? It all adds up. And I don't agree that people will learn, many still haven't mastered driving on the current side of the road. Also are you suggesting that we should change to driving on the other side of the road to prevent European tourists from having accidents here? What about the Brits visiting here, what about the North, more of them probably visit here more than our Continental cousins.

The UK is still a very small market in comparison to Europe, never minding the rest of the world that drives on the right that BMW supply.

Right hand drive cars are no where near as mass produced as left hand drive. There's definitely a cost saving to be had there.

What's so special the needs to be changed in a multi story ? Move the barriers around, driving in the other side and repaint a few arrows ? Yeah it might all add up but the tax payer won't be paying for a private car park to adjust, they can use profits for that. Mcdonald's I'm sure have plenty of profits for redesigning their restaurants every couple of months.

In terms of motorways etc. You're not changing the roads themselves, shift the signs and paint and you're away. I think in the hand scheme of things out can be done easily and cheaply enough and it would benifit us in the long run

_Kaiser_

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Apologies, I've been asleep for some time :pac:

but I do think with the U.K gone from Europe its a chance for Ireland to better itself and be able to substain itself better without them. A big change like this could be the message

Sounds more like an anti-UK/Brit thing than anything to be honest.

But no, we shouldn't be doing anything of the sort. Leaving aside the MASSIVE investment it would require, the instant severe devaluation of every RHD car in the State it would cause, and the huge amounts of confusion and accidents that would result (no doubt used as an excuse by insurers to hike prices even higher than they are), there's no valid reason for it.

If it's not just another dressed up anti-Brit thing then it belongs in the "tax everyone's fuel so I can buy a luxobarge/V8 sports coupe for the weekend" pile.

bazz26

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

The UK is still a very small market in comparison to Europe, never minding the rest of the world that drives on the right that BMW supply.

Right hand drive cars are no where near as mass produced as left hand drive. There's definitely a cost saving to be had there.

What's so special the needs to be changed in a multi story ? Move the barriers around, driving in the other side and repaint a few arrows ? Yeah it might all add up but the tax payer won't be paying for a private car park to adjust, they can use profits for that. Mcdonald's I'm sure have plenty of profits for redesigning their restaurants every couple of months.

In terms of motorways etc. You're not changing the roads themselves, shift the signs and paint and you're away. I think in the hand scheme of things out can be done easily and cheaply enough and it would benifit us in the long run

The UK bought nearly 3 million new cars each year before Covid, it's hardly a small market. What about countries like Australia? The Irish car market is tiny and not a burden to the majority of car manufacturers.

I also think your under estimating and over simplifying what is involved to convert here just to suit your argument for it. If it were that cheap or simple we would have done it not long after joining the EU. The fact is that as an island nation on the most western point of Europe we are more aligned with the UK than we are with the continent. The UK leaving the EU hasn't changed that.

ianobrien

Geez OP, did you think of the practicalities at all?

First of all, think of all the road furniture that would have to be changed. For example, all the stop signs would have to be moved, a lot of the road signs would have to move along with a lot of traffic lights. I haven't touched on the road marking, direction signs, etc

Some road junctions would have to be redesigned. For example, take some of the one way junctions and the kerbs. There is probably some motorway junctions that would change from exit only to entrance only (Thurles North comes to mind). This could cause problems as the traffic flow is not as intended. Buildings would have to be changed for access control.

It's going to be an insurance nightmare for YEARS! There's going to be loads of accidents from people on the now wrong side after relapsing to the "old way". It's something that I'm conscious of for a while after driving on the continent for a month or so.

The change wouldn't make our cars any cheaper. Plenty of markets use RHD cars, South Africa, Australia, Japan. Sure Cyprus and Malta use RHD and are in the EU.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

In regards to the cars from asia being RHD etc. Isint the case anymore

Taking Honda for example, they build locally for local markets

In North America they use plants in Indiana and other locations and use locally sourced parts and build there for that market. The cars aren't shipped from asia over. And it's the very same with the UK and Ireland, and this is where there'll be a problem in the future.

The Civic for example is built at the moment in the UK in swansea I think it is. And possibly the CR-V too. So built locally , with local supplies and parts and shipped locally. That has been the way since 2004 I think ? But now that will be coming to a stop. Because of brexit etc Honda are closing that plant in the UK. So potentially the cost of a Honda in Ireland will go up and will take longer to get, with having to get them shipped from Asia, go through customs etc and also now rather than driving a Honda from the UK with UK parts , you'll now be driving a Japanese Honda with Japanese parts etc meaning it's going to be more expensive to get to ireland for starts and insurance companies don't like Japanese cars either. So it's a double loss there. That's just one example.
(This isn't the question of "is your car an import" they know it is already based on the VIN and will quote as so)

I'm sure Toyota are very similar, plants around the world etc. Toyota Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd The vehicle manufacturing plant is located at Burnaston in Derbyshire and the engine manufacturing plant is located at Deeside in North Wales.

The toyota corolla is still currently made there and cars in ireland have been coming from there since 1992 including the cars like the corolla, the carina , avensis and the auris. If that plant were to shut due to brexit etc then again the cost of toyota goes up in Ireland if the cars have to come from Japan.

Henry Ford III

Healy Rae's are advocating a gradual change.

dar83

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Healy Rae's are advocating a gradual change.

That's when you know your idea/plan is completely bonkers and off the wall! :P

punisher5112

Nope.... How could you swap over....

It would be carnage out there

Alun

The border with NI would be "interesting".

User1998

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

The Civic for example is built at the moment in the UK in swansea I think it is. And possibly the CR-V too. So built locally , with local supplies and parts and shipped locally. That has been the way since 2004 I think ? But now that will be coming to a stop. Because of brexit etc Honda are closing that plant in the UK. So potentially the cost of a Honda in Ireland will go up and will take longer to get, with having to get them shipped from Asia, go through customs etc and also now rather than driving a Honda from the UK with UK parts , you'll now be driving a Japanese Honda with Japanese parts etc meaning it's going to be more expensive to get to ireland for starts and insurance companies don't like Japanese cars either. So it's a double loss there. That's just one example.
(This isn't the question of "is your car an import" they know it is already based on the VIN and will quote as so)

The bit about insurance is false. Just because a car is built in Japan doesn’t make it a Japanese import. If its registered new in Ireland then its not a Japanese import for insurance purposes

lawred2

bazz26 wrote: »

Our cars here are currently some of the cheapest in Europe pre tax. It's our tax that's the killer, switching to LHD won't change that unless the tax situation is overhauled and that's not going to happen. This pandemic has to be paid for yet.

Even if we did what about the cost of switching over the national fleet? Who pays for that? The tax payer? What about private companies who have to convert their fleets and adopt their premises for LHD premises, that cost will be passed on to the consumer. What happens all the RHD cars already here especially those who cannot afford to go out and buy a LHD car? Does everyone get a free first LHD car or do we let people learn to drive on the right in their existing RHD cars? That would be a disaster.

All this to save a few quid on a car that will still end up being heavily taxed to be put on Irish plates.

Would also result in one hell of a lot of unnecessarily scrapped vehicles

markpb

punisher5112 wrote: »

Nope.... How could you swap over....

The Swedes did this years ago. It's expensive but not impossible.

Alun wrote: »

The border with NI would be "interesting".

This too has been solved in various countries

punisher5112

markpb wrote: »

The Swedes did this years ago. It's expensive but not impossible.



This too has been solved in various countries

This is Eìre though...... Could you imagine the amount would be driving at you on roundabout, motorway, blind bends etc.... It will never happen.

Having a driver seat on the wrong side as all are right hand drive would be huge issues for safety such as over taking, seeing pedestrian and cyclists on bends etc etc....
Lethal

Alun

markpb wrote: »

The Swedes did this years ago. It's expensive but not impossible.

The key here being "years ago". No motorways, far fewer cars, lower traffic volumes etc.

This too has been solved in various countries

Those are international borders where there would normally be customs and or passport controls anyway. Not the M1/N1 with otherwise free flowing traffic.

reubenreuben

Not sure what roads you drive on but on most I do,you drive in the middle.

ec18

can't switch really until there isn't two different jurisdictions on the island...

ELM327

punisher5112 wrote: »

Nope.... How could you swap over....

It would be carnage out there

Do it gradually. Trucks first, then buses, wait a couple weeks see how that goes, then do cars.

Alun wrote: »

The border with NI would be "interesting".

Not much different than other land borders where LHD and RHD cars intersect

Wishbone Ash

ELM327 wrote: »

...Not much different than other land borders where LHD and RHD cars intersect

It's pretty rare for countries who drive on different sides to share land borders and the few that exist tend to be 3rd world countries - e.g. Afghanistan/Pakistan.

The vast majority of countries who drive on the left are islands.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Do it gradually. Trucks first, then buses, wait a couple weeks see how that goes, then do cars........

I'm struggling to see how that would work
I must be missing something.

Miscreant

Augeo wrote: »

I must be missing something.

Should have been a #sarcasm tag on the original post...

biko

This is to me is completely unnecessary.
The only country we border will remain on the left so instead of making things better it would make things worse at the border.

The cost of changing layout on intersections, roundabouts, on/off ramps is unjustified. Just switching signs is alone a fortune.

FileNotFound

While I have no personal interest in switching driving sides.

Given the push to upgrade vehicles to electric this might actually be a good time to consider it.

Would be very difficult. Is there an example in recent years of a modern nation switching?

FileNotFound

FileNotFound wrote: »

While I have no personal interest in switching driving sides.

Would be very difficult. Is there an example in recent years of a modern nation switching?

Sweden in the 60s I think and Myanmar in the 70s of the top of my head

FileNotFound

aaronc182 wrote: »

Sweden in the 60s I think and Myanmar in the 70s of the top of my head

Might be a lot tougher now so, average cars per house must be way higher.

Cost of the changover would be big for people. Wonder how they (and insurance etc) managed the interim periods - time limits to change car etc.

mikhail

I would look forward to the hand-wringing over the changeovers at the border. This is not something to consider prior to a united Ireland.

FileNotFound

FileNotFound wrote: »

Cost of the changover would be big for people. Wonder how they (and insurance etc) managed the interim periods - time limits to change car etc.

The cost would be astronomical..
Burma was a dictatorship at the time and still had buses with doors on wrong side up to the 90s.. Hard to use Swedish example either because that was 60 years ago

Gaspode

Yes it's time. A decent solid border with the North would sort out any issues with the issue of going into that part of the island

Isambard

Gaspode wrote: »

Yes it's time. A decent solid border with the North would sort out any issues with the issue of going into that part of the island

that you Donald?

salmocab

I was only thinking the other day that I hadn’t seen this pop up for a while.
It’s too far gone to change, roads engineering is way beyond simple junctions, it would be an enormous expensive task with little pay off. The good news is though there is zero chance of it happening.

CiniO

punisher5112 wrote: »

Having a driver seat on the wrong side as all are right hand drive would be huge issues for safety such as over taking, seeing pedestrian and cyclists on bends etc etc....
Lethal

Sweden example of switch in the 60's prove that's actually not the case.

I personally drive a car with steering wheel on the wrong side (in relation to traffic) everyday for over 2 years now, and don't see too much problems with that.

By saying that - don't get me wrong - I don't encourage a switch in Ireland. It wouldn't make any possible sense at all, neither economically, nor practically.

Charles Babbage

Gaspode wrote: »

Yes it's time. A decent solid border with the North would sort out any issues with the issue of going into that part of the island

I think that nationalists in the North and anyone with an Irish passport should be entitled to drive on the right. That should move the problem away from the border.

zilog_jones

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

...So potentially the cost of a Honda in Ireland will go up and will take longer to get, with having to get them shipped from Asia, go through customs etc and also now rather than driving a Honda from the UK with UK parts , you'll now be driving a Japanese Honda with Japanese parts etc meaning it's going to be more expensive to get to ireland for starts and insurance companies don't like Japanese cars either. So it's a double loss there. That's just one example.
(This isn't the question of "is your car an import" they know it is already based on the VIN and will quote as so)

Irish insurers are concerned with *used* imports from Japan and the risks/costs associated with them, not all cars manufactured in Japan. I have a car manufactured in Japan, insurance and parts supply is a non-issue.

The EU have a trade agreement with Japan, so tariffs on cars produced in Japan will be reduced to zero over the next few years (I forget when exactly). So this will be no different than a UK-produced car (assuming that meets UK content requirements, would also be tariff-free coming into the EU).

markpb wrote: »

The Swedes did this years ago. It's expensive but not impossible.

Did you read that article?

90% of vehicles in Sweden were already LHD before the change (as LHD passenger cars were already the norm there), there were less cars in Sweden in 1967 than there are in Ireland now, and many tram lines were abandoned and replaced with buses due to the costs of reconfiguration. Also Sweden were surrounded by LHD countries - we are not.

celtic_oz

Probably have to be after unification with the North I guess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6RWrzRF8Fc

The J Stands for Jay

There's already a few people driving on the right here

Vestiapx

There is no reason to put ourselves through such a crazy process. Steering wheels on the wrong side for 15 years increases accidents increased insurance premiums. What would be the advantages as you see it?

joujoujou

Wishbone Ash

Mods - can we add 'driving on the right' threads to the banned list.

bazz26

I don't think a month goes by on this forum without this topic being discussed to death.

endacl

I think it’s worth a try. We could start with buses and trucks for a month, and if that goes well, follow on with the rest.

Buddy Bubs

Ship has sailed, never going to happen.

Could we do It? Yes, of course we could.
Should we do it? No, what would be the point?
Will we do it? No, it's a waste of time money and will be carnage.

Sweden did it in the 60s and I think Samoa did it so they could import from Australia but they were both in the halfpenny place with regards to traffic volumes that we have in Ireland now.

Arturo Delgado

Daft. Most of the civilized world drives on the left. Brits, Aussies, Japanese, err, ...Cypriots. why bother otherwise?

Tzardine

celtic_oz wrote: »

Probably have to be after unification with the North I guess

So never gonna happen so.

Vestiapx

Arturo Delgado wrote: »

Daft. Most of the civilized world drives on the left. Brits, Aussies, Japanese, err, ...Cypriots. why bother otherwise?

India drive on the left.

Buddy Bubs

Arturo Delgado wrote: »

Daft. Most of the civilized world drives on the left. Brits, Aussies, Japanese, err, ...Cypriots. why bother otherwise?

More drive on right than the left to be fair. Still bad idea