What to do here?

fran38

I have two tenants. One of which has texted me telling me that her soup bowl has gone missing from the kitchen and that this isnt the first time stuff belonging to her has disappeared from the kitchen and had told me to 'sort it'. She is right in that this has happened before but on the last occasion I told her that she needs to keep her belongings in her bedroom as I won't be held liable for missing items. I've asked the other lodger does he know anything about a missing soup bowl, he said he doesn't. Its a small item but if not handled properly it can escalate. Opinions please.

Are you living in the property?

If not, tell them they are adults who have rented your property, not your time, sort it out themselves.

fran38

Dav010 wrote: »

Are you living in the property?

If not, tell them they are adults who have rented your property, not your time, sort it out themselves.

Yeah, im a live in LL

Baby01032012

First off. If you live with them your not their landlord and they are not their tenants but your licensees. You have right to kick them out at any stage, they have no tenant rights.

Other than that tell them to grow up, sort out themselves or get out.

fran38

Mods can ye lock this thread? The eponymous soup/breakfast/ container of foods bowl had been found in the fridge covered in tinfoil. I personally can't wait to bring this to her attention when she returns.

Caranica

fran38 wrote: »

Mods can ye lock this thread? The eponymous soup/breakfast/ container of foods bowl had been found in the fridge covered in tinfoil. I personally can't wait to bring this to her attention when she returns.

While this is good news, I'd take the opportunity to sit down with her and remind her that she's an adult and if she has issues with the other lodger she needs to sort it with them.

fran38

Hi. The situation has now escalated to the point where I had to give the female lodger notice to leave my house. When I pointed out to her that her soup bowl was in the fridge she began to insinuate that either the male lodger or myself had taken her belongings and broken or misplaced them. These belongings include kitchen utensils, fruit juices and alcohol. I said that as the owner of the property I find her insinuations insulting and that she has the end of the month to vacate my house.
As a licencee, I could have given her a day or a week to leave but I thought I was doing the right thing to give her some time to look for another place. That was two days ago and it was possibly the wrong thing to do.
For the last two days, she has been playing all stereo devices loudly in the morning, stomping loudly up and down the stairs, shouting into her phone whenever she gets a call. All of this starts at 9am and continues untill she feels fit to leave the house. She is also putting on the heating in the mornings and leaving it on. She turns it off when she feels like it. She's doing all this to elicit a response. I'm not giving it to her.
So my thinking is this. Once she leaves today, I'll change the locks and text her that she's no longer a guest in my house due to her rude behaviour and get her family, who lives nearby to remove her belongings. What do ye think and what else should I be doing?

dublin49

hide your rabbit

whomitconcerns

Tell her your shortening the notice to 5 days and then get rid. If she gets mad about it, shorten it to 24hrs and then take action like you say.

It's this a sudden escalation or is she/he nuts?

Your not their parent. This is a ridiculous situation

fran38

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Tell her your shortening the notice to 5 days and then get rid. If she gets mad about it, shorten it to 24hrs and then take action like you say.

It's this a sudden escalation or is she/he nuts?

Your not their parent. This is a ridiculous situation

Sudden escalation tbh

whomitconcerns

Well if they have been normal otherwise, I would prob give them a little leeway and reduce the notice to a week. And if the kick up make it 24 hours... You don't have to deal with that...

Xterminator

you learn from experience eh? you offered her time to find another place to live and she has thrown that back in your face.

if i was you i would simply sit down again and discuss that he behaviour is disrupting the house, and that you expect her to stop any childish behaviour of the sort or she will have 24 hrs to leave the premises. IE issue a threat, but only if you are prepared to follow through.

killbillvol2

I think you tried to be reasonable and this was her response. If I were you I'd go ahead and change the locks and be done with her.

spaceHopper

I'd tell her that she is not to make excessive noise, to stop running the heating. That if she can't follow those simple rules she move out tonight otherwise be gone as soon as possible, not later than next Sunday. Get some boxes and heavy duty black bags and give them to her.

fran38

I told the lodger that any more disruptive behaviour ie; excessive noise levels, that she will have to leave by this Sunday. She got her mother on the phone and just ranted that she knows the law, that her daughter WILL NOT be leaving before the original date I gave (March 31st), they'll be getting legal advice and that she'll scandalize me around the whole village. In light of this, I now definitely want her out by this Sunday. I've rang the local solicitor to get solid advice but I imagine the lodger and her mam has gone or will go to the same practice.

Pistachio19

Her mother is talking through her a*se. If she's so concerned about her daughter let her move her back home. Pathetic that a grown adult has to resort to having mammy fight her battles. Though she does sound like a petulant child by her actions so not really surprising.

ted1

fran38 wrote: »

I told the lodger that any more disruptive behaviour ie; excessive noise levels, that she will have to leave by this Sunday. She got her mother on the phone and just ranted that she knows the law, that her daughter WILL NOT be leaving before the original date I gave (March 31st), they'll be getting legal advice and that she'll scandalize me around the whole village. In light of this, I now definitely want her out by this Sunday. I've rang the local solicitor to get solid advice but I imagine the lodger and her mam has gone or will go to the same practice.

The solicitor will tell her she is a licencee and has to go

fran38

Pistachio19 wrote: »

Her mother is talking through her a*se. If she's so concerned about her daughter let her move her back home. Pathetic that a grown adult has to resort to having mammy fight her battles. Though she does sound like a petulant child by her actions so not really surprising.

Its typical little miss princess type behaviour. She's a part time model so probably has gushings of praise heaped on her constantly. Still waiting on the solicitor to call me back.

Pistachio19

fran38 wrote: »

Its typical little miss princess type behaviour. She's a part time model so probably has gushings of praise heaped on her constantly. Still waiting on the solicitor to call me back.

Ignore any further calls from her mother. Hopefully you'll have her out by the weekend.

James Bond Junior

Change locks, fire her belonging into black plastic bags and leave them outside the mother's house. Call your local Garda station and inform them of situation beforehand. Don't forget her bowl.

whomitconcerns

Well that's a 100% get her out asap situation now. Do it tonight.

Graces7

fran38 wrote: »

Hi. The situation has now escalated to the point where I had to give the female lodger notice to leave my house. When I pointed out to her that her soup bowl was in the fridge she began to insinuate that either the male lodger or myself had taken her belongings and broken or misplaced them. These belongings include kitchen utensils, fruit juices and alcohol. I said that as the owner of the property I find her insinuations insulting and that she has the end of the month to vacate my house.
As a licencee, I could have given her a day or a week to leave but I thought I was doing the right thing to give her some time to look for another place. That was two days ago and it was possibly the wrong thing to do.
For the last two days, she has been playing all stereo devices loudly in the morning, stomping loudly up and down the stairs, shouting into her phone whenever she gets a call. All of this starts at 9am and continues untill she feels fit to leave the house. She is also putting on the heating in the mornings and leaving it on. She turns it off when she feels like it. She's doing all this to elicit a response. I'm not giving it to her.
So my thinking is this. Once she leaves today, I'll change the locks and text her that she's no longer a guest in my house due to her rude behaviour and get her family, who lives nearby to remove her belongings. What do ye think and what else should I be doing?

How old is this person> Sounds about 2?

fran38

Graces7 wrote: »

How old is this person> Sounds about 2?

26 yrs of age.

fran38

So the two separate solicitor practices in the village contacted me. I relayed events leading up to her mams phone rant and my wish to get her out by Sunday. Both solicitors admitted that they were ignorant in tenancy/licencee law. One solicitor said that the lodger can't keep up the level of disruption until she leaves on the 31st so can I endure it till then while the other one said that because the lodger has resided in my house for the last 1.5/2 years then maybe she's afforded some level of tenancy protection. That solicitor will look into it and get back to me in the morning.

Dear God, as she shares with the LL she has no tenancy protection as she isn’t a tenant. Let’s hope the solicitor the mother contacted is able to relay that to her.

If I were you, I would email that solicitor with links to the RTB site relating to renting under license.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html#

https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements

the_pen_turner

I would go down to the local police station and make who ever is on duty aware of the situation so it's on paper if you have to ring them .
Tell the other lodger to disappear for a few hours
Get a few family or friends round to help you.

Tell her to get out within 2 hours.

Make sure she leaves , then change locks

MacDanger

fran38 wrote: »

So the two separate solicitor practices in the village contacted me. I relayed events leading up to her mams phone rant and my wish to get her out by Sunday. Both solicitors admitted that they were ignorant in tenancy/licencee law. One solicitor said that the lodger can't keep up the level of disruption until she leaves on the 31st so can I endure it till then while the other one said that because the lodger has resided in my house for the last 1.5/2 years then maybe she's afforded some level of tenancy protection. That solicitor will look into it and get back to me in the morning.

She has zero tenancy protection as you cannot be a tenant if you live with the LL; she is by definition a licencee. Look it up on the RTB website

fran38

MacDanger wrote: »

She has zero tenancy protection as you cannot be a tenant if you live with the LL; she is by definition a licencee. Look it up on the RTB website

I know and I have. But solicitors are pleading ignorance so unless I have the solid backing by law, there is nothing I can do. The tenant is texting me that if I touch her belongings she will regard this as 'criminal trespassing and damage' and 'ill go to the police'. She's not grasping the fact that I can't trespass in my own house as she has no agreement signed. I'll drive down to the gards to see what's what. I'll get back to ye later tonight coz I'm busy.

whomitconcerns

fran38 wrote: »

I know and I have. But solicitors are pleading ignorance so unless I have the solid backing by law, there is nothing I can do. The tenant is texting me that if I touch her belongings she will regard this as 'criminal trespassing and damage' and 'ill go to the police'. She's not grasping the fact that I can't trespass in my own house as she has no agreement signed. I'll drive down to the gards to see what's what. I'll get back to ye later tonight coz I'm busy.

She hasn’t got a leg to stand on and the town solicitors are idiots to offer opinions on something if they are so ill informed.

Out on her ear and that’s that.

Graces7

fran38 wrote: »

26 yrs of age.

OH dear! And the part time modelling? hence the " drama queen."?

when I was teaching ballet some of the mothers acted like this one's mother; they were named " ballet mothers." Same pattern!

So sorry you are having to go through this... You deserve a medal

Graces7

fran38 wrote: »

I know and I have. But solicitors are pleading ignorance so unless I have the solid backing by law, there is nothing I can do. The tenant is texting me that if I touch her belongings she will regard this as 'criminal trespassing and damage' and 'ill go to the police'. She's not grasping the fact that I can't trespass in my own house as she has no agreement signed. I'll drive down to the gards to see what's what. I'll get back to ye later tonight coz I'm busy.

Please call " Threshold"? I know this is not normal tenancy stuff but they are so used to situations like this and will be able to advise and maybe act as advocate for you? With the voice of some authority. They did that for me with a tough tenancy I had. Called the agent and charmed them!

And yes give the Gardaí the heads up .

_Kaiser_

Tell her she has till end of tomorrow to get out or you will be calling the Gardai to have her escorted out as a tresspasser in your home.

_Kaiser_

Graces7 wrote: »

How old is this person> Sounds about 2?

fran38 wrote: »

26 yrs of age.

You'd be surprised how immature and entitled a lot of "young adults" are nowadays.

Too much social media and parents who didn't really do discipline or say no to them growing up.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Please call " Threshold"? I know this is not normal tenancy stuff but they are so used to situations like this and will be able to advise and maybe act as advocate for you? With the voice of some authority. They did that for me with a tough tenancy I had. Called the agent and charmed them!

And yes give the Gardaí the heads up .

Threshold is tenant focused, it isn’t surprising they helped you as you are a tenant. It would not surprise anyone here if Threshold advised the op that the licensee has more rights that she actually is entitled to.

ted1

fran38 wrote: »

So the two separate solicitor practices in the village contacted me. I relayed events leading up to her mams phone rant and my wish to get her out by Sunday. Both solicitors admitted that they were ignorant in tenancy/licencee law. One solicitor said that the lodger can't keep up the level of disruption until she leaves on the 31st so can I endure it till then while the other one said that because the lodger has resided in my house for the last 1.5/2 years then maybe she's afforded some level of tenancy protection. That solicitor will look into it and get back to me in the morning.

I’d question the solicitors knowledge of the laws around licencees

ted1

Graces7 wrote: »

Please call " Threshold"? I know this is not normal tenancy stuff but they are so used to situations like this and will be able to advise and maybe act as advocate for you? With the voice of some authority. They did that for me with a tough tenancy I had. Called the agent and charmed them!

And yes give the Gardaí the heads up .

Do not go near Threshold they are an awful organisation.

fran38

The Gardai were of little help. They both said (female and male Gardai) that they knew little on tenancy rights/legislation as it's not criminal law. What they did say however is that if I changed the locks and evicting the lodger, I'd be in contravention of that Covid eviction ban. They said as far as they knew, licences comes under that too once they've been paying rent. By paying rent on time and as agreed they are afforded some protection. Just like what the solicitors said. They suggested I contact threshold in their ignorance.
I could contact the RTB tomorrow but I was hoping to have something solid behind me when I give the lodger her marching orders later this evening.
The female garda warned me to be extra vigilant in case the lodger accuses me of 'something else'. We all know what that means.

Nomis21

I have spent half my life living with probably around 20 different LICENCEES living with me over the years. Some have become very close friends, some were just nice people and some caused me the sort of grief that you are having.

The latter group were asked for their keys, deposit returned immediately on return of keys, and told to leave immediately. As I had a car and they usually didn't and they had luggage, I offered to take them anywhere they wanted free of charge to speed up the process.

OP you are legally allowed to do this. You don't want anyone like this hanging around causing more trouble. She has her Mum to go to.

ted1

fran38 wrote: »

The Gardai were of little help. They both said (female and male Gardai) that they knew little on tenancy rights/legislation as it's not criminal law. What they did say however is that if I changed the locks and evicting the lodger, I'd be in contravention of that Covid eviction ban. They said as far as they knew, licences comes under that too once they've been paying rent. By paying rent on time and as agreed they are afforded some protection. Just like what the solicitors said. They suggested I contact threshold in their ignorance.
I could contact the RTB tomorrow but I was hoping to have something solid behind me when I give the lodger her marching orders later this evening.
The female garda warned me to be extra vigilant in case the lodger accuses me of 'something else'. We all know what that means.

The RTB doesn’t deal with licencees. Just kick her out.

meijin

fran38 wrote: »

Once she leaves today, I'll change the locks and text her that she's no longer a guest in my house due to her rude behaviour and get her family, who lives nearby to remove her belongings.

this was the best option

sadly, both solicitors & gardai are clueless re. tenancy / licence legislation

RobbieMD

meijin wrote: »

this was the best option

sadly, both solicitors & gardai are clueless re. tenancy / licence legislation

The Gardai don’t need to know tenancy legislation though. It’s not criminal. People saying she’s a trespasser etc are misguided. At least in the criminal context of trespass, she certainly isn’t a trespasser.

ted1

RobbieMD wrote: »

The Gardai don’t need to know tenancy legislation though. It’s not criminal..

Nor is it a tenancy

RobbieMD

ted1 wrote: »

Nor is it a tenancy

And yet the link you posted above seems to provide the same protection to licencees as tenants during this emergency.
Section 1 (2)(b) in the interpretation of amendment to the Act.

James Bond Junior

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Change locks, fire her belonging into black plastic bags and leave them outside the mother's house. Call your local Garda station and inform them of situation beforehand. Don't forget her bowl.

Imagine being 26 and ringing your mam to give out to your landlord


OP, you've been far too nice already. You're becoming a door mat. Change locks immediately and pack her stuff up.

Sarn

RobbieMD wrote: »

And yet the link you posted above seems to provide the same protection to licencees as tenants during this emergency.
Section 1 (2)(b) in the interpretation of amendment to the Act.

My understanding is that licensee in the context of the Act relates to student accommodation as defined in the RTA 2004:

“licence” means a licence—
(a) given by the owner (in this section referred to as the “licensor”) of student accommodation to a student (in this section referred to as the “licensee”), and

Nomis21

Sarn wrote: »

My understanding is that licensee in the context of the Act relates to student accommodation as defined in the RTA 2004:

“licence” means a licence—
(a) given by the owner (in this section referred to as the “licensor”) of student accommodation to a student (in this section referred to as the “licensee”), and

Students are often licencees.
Not all licencees are students.

Caranica

Nomis21 wrote: »

Students are often licencees.
Not all licencees are students.

Yes but the section in the act in relation to licensees is in relation to purpose built student accommodation.

Sarn

Nomis21 wrote: »

Students are often licencees.
Not all licencees are students.

That’s the point I was making. Not being able to serve a notice of termination during the emergency period applies to licensees in student accommodation and not licensees living with the landlord, based on my interpretation.

Nomis21

Caranica wrote: »

Yes but the section in the act in relation to licensees is in relation to purpose built student accommodation.

Students staying in college owned accomodation are classed as licencees.

This is only one of the sections of the law relating to licencees.

Fol20

fran38 wrote: »

I know and I have. But solicitors are pleading ignorance so unless I have the solid backing by law, there is nothing I can do. The tenant is texting me that if I touch her belongings she will regard this as 'criminal trespassing and damage' and 'ill go to the police'. She's not grasping the fact that I can't trespass in my own house as she has no agreement signed. I'll drive down to the gards to see what's what. I'll get back to ye later tonight coz I'm busy.

I’m not sure I believe this.

Solicitors usually don’t plead ignorance given it’s their job. They are usually the most careful people to speak to when I talk to them and usually don’t say something unless they can back it up.

Did they say any of this in writing?