LL wants tenant to pay to resolve dampness

Seth Brundle

I'm asking this on behalf of someone I know. They're renting an apartment which has dampness issues. They've been in the apartment for a few years now and as I understand it, the issue has been around for a while (not sure if it was like that when they moved in).

The LL agreed to fund an inspection after a number of complaints about the dampness/mould. Once they received the report back, the LL was very quick to say that my friend should pay to remedy the issues (~€1300).
My friend intends to disagree with the LL's suggestion - I suggested I'd get opinions from here first.

Below are two images with excerpts form the report (issues found and recommendations to resolve)

Issues found during inspection:


Recommendations from inspection:


Obviously there are measures which my friend should implement to assist in reducing the level of dampness but is it fair to expect them to fund the physical changes required to increase the levels of natural ventilation?

Gumbo

What has been determined as the cause of the dampness?

Seth Brundle

All that was in the report is in the images above.

Deeec

Did the tenant keep the vents opened and clean them regularly?
Did the tenant dry clothes indoors?
Did the the tenant open windows and ventilate the apartment every day?

What needs to be determined here is if the tenant contributed to the problem by not doing the above?
( Im not saying it is the tenants fault though - there may be reasons why they could'nt do the above)

Calahonda52

Deeec wrote: »

Did the tenant keep the vents opened and clean them regularly?
Did the tenant dry clothes indoors?
Did the the tenant open windows and ventilate the apartment every day?

What needs to be determined here is if the tenant contributed to the problem by not doing the above?
( Im not saying it is the tenants fault though - there may be reasons why they could'nt do the above)

I agree with this, however if the quotes are for work to be done to the fabric of the gaff, or adding new gear, then its on the landlord.
It sound a kip

DubCount

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I agree with this, however if the quotes are for work to be done to the fabric of the gaff, or adding new gear, then its on the landlord.
It sound a kip

I would disagree. The issue is "who caused the problem". If the dampness was caused by the tenants actions, then its their responsibility to fix it. If its not as a result of tenant actions or inactions, then its the landlords responsibility.

The fact it relates to the fabric of the property is not relevant. If sealing up vents etc caused the damage, then its a tenant responsibility.

JustAThought

Interesting. Im half way through sealing up a vent that causes a shocking draught against the advice of a professional. Might reconsider now. Never thought a sealed vent could cause dampness. Live & learn.

STB.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Obviously there are measures which my friend should implement to assist in reducing the level of dampness but is it fair to expect them to fund the physical changes required to increase the levels of natural ventilation?

No. The landlord is a chancer. Cold bridging, inadequate insulation and poor vents that haven't been serviced in a long time by the sound of things are the factors the landlord needs to address. It is his property.

Calahonda52

DubCount wrote: »

I would disagree. The issue is "who caused the problem". If the dampness was caused by the tenants actions, then its their responsibility to fix it. If its not as a result of tenant actions or inactions, then its the landlords responsibility.

The fact it relates to the fabric of the property is not relevant. If sealing up vents etc caused the damage, then its a tenant responsibility.

.
Disagree away: reading my post might help: fitting fans is not for the tenant.
Fixtures and fittings are for the LL
.
Taking down wall vents and cleaning the sh!t from there is whose call in you book?

Seth Brundle

Deeec wrote: »

Did the tenant keep the vents opened and clean them regularly?
Did the tenant dry clothes indoors?
Did the the tenant open windows and ventilate the apartment every day?

What needs to be determined here is if the tenant contributed to the problem by not doing the above?
( Im not saying it is the tenants fault though - there may be reasons why they could'nt do the above)

AIUI my friend did dry some clothes there and used the windows - however they work and can't have the windows open all day, every day.
I don't believe that they unclogged the vents. Woukd this be a standard expectation for a tenant?
They reckon there are issues with the property nonetheless.

DubCount wrote: »

The fact it relates to the fabric of the property is not relevant. If sealing up vents etc caused the damage, then its a tenant responsibility.

They didn't seal up the vents.

The Student

Calahonda52 wrote: »

.
Disagree away: reading my post might help: fitting fans is not for the tenant.
Fixtures and fittings are for the LL
.
Taking down wall vents and cleaning the sh!t from there is whose call in you book?

I suggest you read the post. There was no mention of fitting fans. The only reference was to vents.

If the actions of the tenant is causing the issue then it's the tenants responsibility to rectify the matter. Clothes should not be dried in property unless by using driers and with appropriate ventilation.

Why do you think bathrooms and kitchens have windows and extractor fans.

AndrewJRenko

The Student wrote: »

Clothes should not be dried in property unless by using driers and with appropriate ventilation.

So when a property is rented with a washing machine but no drier, what are tenants supposed to do?

mickdw

The Student wrote: »

I suggest you read the post. There was no mention of fitting fans. The only reference was to vents.

If the actions of the tenant is causing the issue then it's the tenants responsibility to rectify the matter. Clothes should not be dried in property unless by using driers and with appropriate ventilation.

Why do you think bathrooms and kitchens have windows and extractor fans.

The report recommended fitting fans to bathroom and kitchen.

The Student

mickdw wrote: »

The report recommended fitting fans to bathroom and kitchen.

The original post did but the post quoted did not.

alias no.9

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So when a property is rented with a washing machine but no drier, what are tenants supposed to do?

If there is no private outdoor space, the LL is required to provide a dryer.

Caranica

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So when a property is rented with a washing machine but no drier, what are tenants supposed to do?

Report the landlord for not meeting basic rental standards if there is no outside drying available.

punisher5112

Most apartment wouldn't have outside drying.

The LL is responsible for bringing the property up to standard, that's typical of cow boy LL get Tennant to pay.....

Op it's up to the LL.

Why don't they get onto their local environmental health officer in the council, they will come out, inspect and advise.
The report will also be worth taking note by themselves, they can enforce the issues be rectified.

Inferno circumstances should your friend entertain any of that rubbish from the LL.

The LL is running a business, it's upto him to have the property in correct working order. Of course if damage has been done by a Tennant yes they of course should be responsible for their actions but this is all down to inadequate insulation and ventilation.

punisher5112

JustAThought wrote: »

Interesting. Im half way through sealing up a vent that causes a shocking draught against the advice of a professional. Might reconsider now. Never thought a sealed vent could cause dampness. Live & learn.

You can get inserts which can help for this, they don't block but help stop huge drafts or sounds.

Gumbo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

All that was in the report is in the images above.

What is your friend doing to cause high levels of humidity?

Keeping windows closed?
Drying clothes inside?
Showering without opening windows?

Seth Brundle

Gumbo wrote: »

What is your friend doing to cause high levels of humidity?

Keeping windows closed?
Drying clothes inside?
Showering without opening windows?

I dont believe that they were doing anything out of the ordinary

Cuddlesworth

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I dont believe that they were doing anything out of the ordinary

I don't see a figure though, just the statement that the "high humidity" exists. Doesn't cost much to pick up cheap temp/humidity sensors to check it themselves.

From reading the report, the rear wall of the property is cold(internal plaster wall), it probably doesn't get any sun on the external side during the day. When you have warm air meeting a significantly colder surface like a wall, you get some condensation and possibly mold.

Insulation in this case is a all or nothing affair, doing it badly(bedroom) just makes it worse, as your insulating the wall with a high thermal mass against its only real source of heat. Anywhere there is a "cold bridge", eg thermal transfer, its going to be worse then just not doing it at all.

MicktheMan

The way I see it is all recommended physical changes to the property are on the landlord and the behavioural changes on the tenant.



(And am saying this both as a practitioner in mould remediation and a landlord of nearly 30 years)

Grumpypants

Apartment is poorly built. The insulation issues and poor ventilation are problems with the building and something the landlord should fix.

The tenant should be able to dry clothes on the rads, and have a shower and you shouldn't get condensation causing mould if the place was built correctly.

The landlord wants them to pay for renovating his apartment.

Mad_maxx

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So when a property is rented with a washing machine but no drier, what are tenants supposed to do?

clothes horse , anything but hanging clothes on radiators

Mad_maxx

Grumpypants wrote: »

Apartment is poorly built. The insulation issues and poor ventilation are problems with the building and something the landlord should fix.

The tenant should be able to dry clothes on the rads, and have a shower and you shouldn't get condensation causing mould if the place was built correctly.

The landlord wants them to pay for renovating his apartment.

no high level of building standards will negate the sin of drying clothes on rads

2lazytogetup

JustAThought wrote: »

Interesting. Im half way through sealing up a vent that causes a shocking draught against the advice of a professional. Might reconsider now. Never thought a sealed vent could cause dampness. Live & learn.

Yep and if there are asthma issues it's worse, I'd recommend against any sealing, keep the air fresh. A warm jumper to stop the draught annoying you

2lazytogetup

Doesn't sound like landlords fault unless all vents were closed. Windows should be opened regularly and clothes not dried on radiators.

Caranica

Mad_maxx wrote: »

clothes horse , anything but hanging clothes on radiators

Doesn't meet minimum rental standards

Mellor

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I agree with this, however if the quotes are for work to be done to the fabric of the gaff, or adding new gear, then its on the landlord.
It sound a kip

That's irrelevant. If the tenant had pulled doors off their hinges and put holes in walls. Repairs would be to the fabric, but would be tenants fault.
You need to look at the source. It doesn't look like the tenants have done anything out of the ordinary, so LL should foot the bill.

Who produce the report? As the suggestion to add more insulation over condensation is really awful. They also refered to mould as fungicide, which is pretty incompetent.

AndrewJRenko

Caranica wrote: »

Report the landlord for not meeting basic rental standards if there is no outside drying available.

Good to know, didn't realise it was mandatory. Obviously, standards have increased considerably since my renting days.

Mad_maxx

Caranica wrote: »

Doesn't meet minimum rental standards

a washer dryer is of course better but a horse is preferable any day of the week to hanging clothes on radiators

B.A._Baracus

Am I missing something here?
Why would a tennant pay to fix a property that's not theirs?

I get that mold is not healthy. Who wants to live in a flat with that but you don't own it.

Caranica

Mad_maxx wrote: »

a washer dryer is of course better but a horse is preferable any day of the week to hanging clothes on radiators

Regardless "Where there is no access to a yard / garden, access to communal laundry facilities, such as a washing machine and a dryer, must be provided"

The "must" is not optional.

Ray Palmer

There is no way around this for the landlord they must pay for any upgrades.
However tenants are usually the issue. I have had places never had damp issues but within a short time of new tenants have an issue. Every time it has been an issue it is the tenant drying clothes inside. Each property has a dryer but tenants say they are too expensive to run. They can never tell you the cost of running it. I have a plug adapter that tells the amount of power used to prove it isn't expensive.

I have had to repaint due to this. Just have to suck it up. Once after repainting I called in and they were drying clothes on the radiator. They swore they didn't ever do this. So I held their deposit for the repaint. They of course argued and brought a case up. They didn't win but the hassle wasn't worth it

Yellow_Fern

STB. wrote: »

No. The landlord is a chancer. Cold bridging, inadequate insulation and poor vents that haven't been serviced in a long time by the sound of things are the factors the landlord needs to address. It is his property.

Landlords cannot be expected to provide a house with no cold bridging. They should clean vents and offer a dehumidifier.

punisher5112

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Landlords cannot be expected to provide a house with no cold bridging. They should clean vents and offer a dehumidifier.

There isn't adequate ventilation though..,.

Dehumidifiers aren't the fix.

JimmyVik

My brother had an apartment rented a few years ago. First 3 years he had 2 different tenancies and not a problem.
Then a couple moved in and the place got really damp and moldy. My brother thought there was a leak or something.
He got a guy in to look at it who said vents were blocked up etc. Brother unblocked the vents but damp persisted.
Eventually he decided to put new insulation inside and repaint.

He asked the tenants would they move out to another place for a month.
He moved them into my aunts house that we inherited and hadnt sold yet for the month.
When he had the apartment ready he went to help them move their stuff back in.
The aunts house was full of black mould everywhere. It was disgusting.

Within a month of them moving back into the apartment there was mould everywhere again.
After they moved out, he bleached the walls and repainted again. He had it rented to different tenants for another 5 years before he sold it, without any mould problems at all.

When he asked an expert about this experience he was told that some peoples lifestyles are the cause of mould.
When they moved house they brought the spores with them, but more importantly their lifestyle enable the conditions for the mould to thrive.
When other people moved in, even though there were probably mould spores still there that he hadnt got to, their lifestyles did not allow the mould to thrive.

Upshot was, open widnows regularly, dont block up vents, dont dry clothes on the rads and dont boil stuff for hours withouyt an extractor fan on, and close doors when cooking and showering.

I myself would never live anywhere without my dehumidifier.
Never ever had a mould problem and i just take it with me anywhere i move to.
Leave it on low for a couple of hours in the morning.

Yellow_Fern

Caranica wrote: »

Doesn't meet minimum rental standards

From a residents point of view you want to ensure water isnt entering the house. But most mould comes residents of a house. Not having vents does not meet minimum legal standards but it is far better to open a window then install a vent then to follow this standards. If I was such a tenant (I know there are many like this in Ireland) Id ask for a vent that isnt open 24/7 like a Lunos or something and if they refused, just make do with windows. Vents offer no benefit to the tenants comfort, health and energy bills.

Mrs OBumble

Who installed the insulation which is there already?

DubCount

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Am I missing something here?
Why would a tennant pay to fix a property that's not theirs?

I get that mold is not healthy. Who wants to live in a flat with that but you don't own it.

Take a tenant moves who into an apartment and that apartment has a fully functioning washing machine supplied to the house by the LL. After a month the washing machine breaks down. A repair guy comes out, and says the machine was damaged by the tenant sitting on the door of the washing machine. It is not intentional damage, the LL owns the washing machine, but its the tenants liability because the actions of the tenant caused the damage.

Just because this relates to the house itself (and not the fittings), does not change the principle. If the tenant is driving his/her car into a driveway and smashes into the front of the house, its not their property, but its their responsibility.

If the damage (dampness/ mould/ wahsing machine) is just a matter of normal ware or something a tenant did not cause, then absolutely, the bill belongs to the LL. Even if its uncertain how something was damaged, then I would still say this is the Landlords cost to fix. Where the damage is caused by the tenant, then the tenant should pay - thats taking responsibility for your actions.

NeuralNetwork

A lot of it is Irish climate is perfect for mould growth and our building regulations are extremely weak.

Anyone I know who’s moved here, other than from Britain which is similar, complains about encountering mouldy apartments or houses.

Black mould spores are always in the air. You don’t “bring them with you”. If the the environment in the building is suitable, they’ll just grow. They’re part of the outdoor environment and break down dead material all the time.

If a house goes totally mouldy when unoccupied there’s something seriously wrong with the construction - insulation & ventilation.

The climate is also relatively benign compared to say Central Europe or most of North America, so heating systems are less likely to be always on and energy costs are very high too. If you take something like electric heating here the kWh cost is as high as it gets anywhere in the most expensive markets in the world, and it’s actually not made up here by tax imposed - we have just have extremely expensive electricity due to location and small size of market.

So it all adds up to damp.

JimmyVik

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

A lot of it is Irish climate is perfect for mould growth and our building regulations are extremely weak.

Anyone I know who’s moved here, other than from Britain which is similar, complains about encountering mouldy apartments or houses.

Black mould spores are always in the air. You don’t “bring them with you”. If the the environment in the building is suitable, they’ll just grow. They’re part of the outdoor environment and break down dead material all the time.

If a house goes totally mouldy when unoccupied there’s something seriously wrong with the construction - insulation & ventilation.

The climate is also relatively benign compared to say Central Europe or most of North America, so heating systems are less likely to be always on and energy costs are very high too. If you take something like electric heating here the kWh cost is as high as it gets anywhere in the most expensive markets in the world, and it’s actually not made up here by tax imposed - we have just have extremely expensive electricity due to location and small size of market.

So it all adds up to damp.

I was in Puerto Rico on a 4 month contract.
Never gets cold there but my god, the mould in houses and apartments.
Where I was staying and any house or shop i visited was full of mould.
Over there people would have bars on their windows and doors and never close the windows or doors. If they were closed the mould got worse.

Climate is a major factor.

At least in Ireland we only need good ventilation or to open the windows for an hour or two a day.

dancingqueen

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So when a property is rented with a washing machine but no drier, what are tenants supposed to do?

Regulations state that if there are no outside drying areas, a washer/dryer is to be supplied by the landlord.

bilbot79

I don't think the tenant should pay for improvements to the house. If it were their fault for not opening windows etc then maybe they should be out with some plastic gloves and a bottle of vinegar but the LL should pay for works to the house

NeuralNetwork

dancingqueen wrote: »

Regulations state that if there are no outside drying areas, a washer/dryer is to be supplied by the landlord.

I actually think given the climate in Ireland a separate dryer should be provided. Most washer dryers are utterly useless as dryers and not all clothing can be dried anyway.

The vast majority of my shirts and T-shirt etc can’t be machine dried.

We should be able encouraging use or heat pump dryers and ensuring outdoor drying spaces are designed in.

From a property owners point of view, if you have a good and cost effective dryer in place, it would avoid some of these issues with clothes drying.

The problem though is the climate and poor ventilation systems.

Simple though the wall heat recovery vents can be retrofitted too. They don’t cause significant heat loss and maintain fresh air.

The big issue tho is even with the windows wide open parts of the year here are just damp.

JimmyVik

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

I actually think given the climate in Ireland a separate dryer should be provided. Most washer dryers are utterly useless as dryers and not all clothing can be dried anyway.

We should be able encouraging use or heat pump dryers.

From a property owners point of view, if you have a good and cost effective dryer in place, it would avoid some of these issues with clothes drying.

Some would say that rentals should be unfurnished like most of the rest of the world. Then you can just buy whatever white goods, beds, furniture you wnat to have and take it with you when you move. No more having to just settle for what is there already and probably worn out by previous tenants.

NeuralNetwork

We seem to have a total fixation on furnishing apartments here and an assumption they’re only ever going to be short term things.

I agree tho, if you’re living in a lot of continental countries you might invest in your own furniture and appliances.

The other thing I would point out though on the drying thing is that in hotter and dryer climates on the continent the use of dryers can be rare or seen as an outrageous environmental misuse of energy by some people.

Even in Ireland a lot of tumble dryers were rarely used. The old through the wall vented models were huge energy hogs - 3kW of heat blown straight out the vent pipe. I remember plenty of households where the dryer was, like the immersion switch, NEVER to be used other than for slightly airing stuff.

Heat pump dryers are very cheap to run in comparison. We have one that uses barely 700W and we really saw the bills drop.

dancingqueen

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

I actually think given the climate in Ireland a separate dryer should be provided. Most washer dryers are utterly useless as dryers and not all clothing can be dried anyway.

The vast majority of my shirts and T-shirt etc can’t be machine dried.

We should be able encouraging use or heat pump dryers and ensuring outdoor drying spaces are designed in.

From a property owners point of view, if you have a good and cost effective dryer in place, it would avoid some of these issues with clothes drying.

The problem though is the climate and poor ventilation systems.

Simple though the wall heat recovery vents can be retrofitted too. They don’t cause significant heat loss and maintain fresh air.

The big issue tho is even with the windows wide open parts of the year here are just damp.

I don't disagree - but as a tenant, the cheapest option is always preferable to the landlord, in my experience.

I lived in a damp ground floor apartment with 2 exterior walls that were freezing cold all year round, even in summer. The vents were open and the windows were open 24/7 as there were shutters inside them. The extractor fans in both kitchen and bathroom were over 15 years old, and the LL didn't want to replace them despite our bringing it to their attention numerous times over the time we lived there. Some places are just badly built for our climate.

NeuralNetwork

Sure when you see architects using things like external wood panelling here you’d have to wonder what imaginary world some of them live in.

We don’t really seem to accept that we have a very damp climate.

JimmyVik

JimmyVik wrote: »

Some would say that rentals should be unfurnished like most of the rest of the world. Then you can just buy whatever white goods, beds, furniture you wnat to have and take it with you when you move. No more having to just settle for what is there already and probably worn out by previous tenants.

Im all in favour of that. Sick of looking at the same Ikea coffee table for the last 15 years. It's not the actual same one, but everywhere I've rented they've furnished the place with the same cheap coffee table from Ikea and the same faux leather sofa from Crappy Sofas 'R' Us.

JimmyVik

Deleted User wrote: »

Im all in favour of that. Sick of looking at the same Ikea coffee table for the last 15 years. It's the actual same one, but everywhere I've rented they've furnished the place with the same cheap coffee table from Ikea and the same faux leather sofa from Crappy Sofas 'R' Us.

In other countries you can rent furniture from a warehouse and give it back when you move out.
They will deliver it and collect it and the quality can be as good as you want it to be. Its very cheap to to rent furniture that way.

Some of these warehouses will even send out an interior designer to pick it out for you too as part of the service.