The Davy scandal

Floppybits

Surprised to see nothing on here about the behaviour of senior executives in Davy.

Davy fined a measley 4.13 million and until today the Davy employees involved still worked there. 3 have resigned, they should have been sacked.

Shocking example of the lack of legislation to tackle this sort of white collar crime.

[URL="http://RTE news : Three senior executives at Davy resign over bond deal

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/"]http://RTE news : Three senior executives at Davy resign over bond deal

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/[/URL]

.anon.

Floppybits wrote: »

Surprised to see nothing on here about the behaviour of senior executives in Davy.

Not the right type of 'scumbags'. It's no fun punching upwards.

The One Doctor

White collar crime in Ireland is ignored unless the media finds out.

Floppybits

It would be interesting to see if Davys were funding any political party's. The government really need to crack down on this sort of crime but will they? This will only further tarnish the countrys reputation of be the wild west for financial services

ulster

Man when I read the words "Developer" and "Anglo Irish Bank Bonds" in the same article I automatically think of skullduggery.

BanditLuke

Floppybits wrote: »

Surprised to see nothing on here about the behaviour of senior executives in Davy.

Davy fined a measley 4.13 million and until today the Davy employees involved still worked there. 3 have resigned, they should have been sacked.

Shocking example of the lack of legislation to tackle this sort of white collar crime.

[URL="http://RTE news : Three senior executives at Davy resign over bond deal

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/"]http://RTE news : Three senior executives at Davy resign over bond deal

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/[/URL]

They need to live in a council house, the North inner city or be immigrants for Boardies to be outraged hence the lack of discussion over their crimes.

Daragh1980

The One Doctor wrote: »

White collar crime in Ireland is ignored unless the media finds out.

The Left are very vocal on white collar crime
They tend to ignore most violent crime

The Davy staff should have done time in prison. That might shut the lefties up.

Montage of Feck

Phew, thought Davy Fitz was in trouble.

a very cool kid

Floppybits wrote: »

It would be interesting to see if Davys were funding any political party's. The government really need to crack down on this sort of crime but will they? This will only further tarnish the countrys reputation of be the wild west for financial services

They can't, not legally anyway. All the parties in ROI publish their accounts also.

Criminal prosecutions are a matter for the gardaí.

If the central bank prosecution case is strong enough to hold up for a criminal prosecution, those involved should absolutely be prosecuted for theft.

Jizique

Floppybits wrote: »

Surprised to see nothing on here about the behaviour of senior executives in Davy.

[URL="http://RTE news : Three senior executives at Davy resign over bond deal

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/"]http://RTE news : Three senior executives at Davy resign over bond deal

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/[/URL]

There is a thread in the investing forum

FromADistance

It's no wonder the public have so little trust in financial institutions with this sort of carry on. If this happened in the US, people would be hauled in front of a court and jailed. The fact that this happened in 2014 and no proceedings have taken place yet says it all.

Floppybits

FromADistance wrote: »

It's no wonder the public have so little trust in financial institutions with this sort of carry on. If this happened in the US, people would be hauled in front of a court and jailed. The fact that this happened in 2014 and no proceedings have taken place yet says it all.

From what I understand from reading about this the reason it took so long was because Davy did everything they could to twart the investigation. Why hasn't this been handed over to CAB yet? Also the employees involved in this were still employed by Davy and 2 only resigned today, not sacked resigned. I think if anyone in any job was caught doing that would be sacked.

FromADistance

FromADistance wrote: »

It's no wonder the public have so little trust in financial institutions with this sort of carry on. If this happened in the US, people would be hauled in front of a court and jailed. The fact that this happened in 2014 and no proceedings have taken place yet says it all.

Whatever about jailed, the perp walk would have been a certainty and their standing in the Golf Club damaged by being involved in something so unseemly.

Lad GAGA

I think there are more questions than answers on this as the moment, think this is going to rumble for a while yet. Given what we do know why didn't the CBI bar the senior guys from holding senior positions for the forseeable future? I think the fact that it took Davys a long time to come to terms with the ramifications of this these guys aren't living in the real world. I'd throw the book at Davys and these individuals at this point. Have they been involved in any other similar deals? Have any tax issues arisen? Is the Institute of Directors and the Stock Exchanges looking at taking any action? Ultimately the reputational impact will be far greater than the fine which is peanuts for a company like Davys. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and the fact that they appear to have continuously mislead the CBI begs the question how the individuals weren't punished, they should have been dealt with by the CBI under its Fitness & Probity regime before they resigned.

ongarite

The ownership structure of Davy prevents this saga from being tidied up neatly with people calling for them to be fired.
The 12 involved own large part of the company so can't be fired only resign now as 3 have done.

Eric Cartman

BanditLuke wrote: »

They need to live in a council house, the North inner city or be immigrants for Boardies to be outraged hence the lack of discussion over their crimes.

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

All crime is bad and should be prosecuted but lets not pretend that fintan doing some dodgy traded is in any way comparable to some scumbag heroin dealer stabbing people over a 50 euro debt

Wombatman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

All crime is bad and should be prosecuted but lets not pretend that fintan doing some dodgy traded is in any way comparable to some scumbag heroin dealer stabbing people over a 50 euro debt

If we hadn't had to bail out Fintan and his ilk, we might have been able implement decent health, education and social services, that would have lead to a reduction in drug related crime.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

All crime is bad and should be prosecuted but lets not pretend that fintan doing some dodgy traded is in any way comparable to some scumbag heroin dealer stabbing people over a 50 euro debt

You have a Jesuitical view of crime.

3.3 million being effectively stolen from a man in severe financial difficulty looking to pay off his bills is for you nothing but a hill of beans in comparison to a junkie not paying for a hit.

The victim of this crime could have sold those bonds at 8.82 million, not 5.58 which he was told by Davy was the offer he had to accept as an agreement had already been made with their clients who just happened to be themselves; a clear cut case of conflict of interest.
The victim was in massive debt and needed every penny he could get to extricate himself from his financial difficulties.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/can-davy-s-clients-stay-silent-as-board-goes-into-conclave-1.4502478

growleaves

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

All crime is bad and should be prosecuted but lets not pretend that fintan doing some dodgy traded is in any way comparable to some scumbag heroin dealer stabbing people over a 50 euro debt

But these types of crimes slowly destroy the commercial integrity of a society. We take it for granted that we'll always gave a relatively fair and free business environment and we've never had anything else.

Jizique

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You have a Jesuitical view of crime.

3.3 million being effectively stolen from a man in severe financial difficulty looking to pay off his bills is for you nothing but a hill of beans in comparison to a junkie not paying for a hit.

The victim of this crime could have sold those bonds at 8.82 million, not 5.58 which he was told by Davy was the offer he had to accept as an agreement had already been made with their clients who just happened to be themselves; a clear cut case of conflict of interest.
The victim was in massive debt and needed every penny he could get to extricate himself from his financial difficulties.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/can-davy-s-clients-stay-silent-as-board-goes-into-conclave-1.4502478

He got that - took an action which Davy settled

Eric Cartman

growleaves wrote: »

But these types of crimes slowly destroy the commercial integrity of a society. We take it for granted that we'll always gave a relatively fair and free business environment and we've never had anything else.

Nobody is excusing those crimes, i agree with you, but violent and drug crime is worse for society as a whole so the original posters complaint that there isnt as much outrage about white collar is the correct order things should be

mountai

What sickens me is the fact that " The Firm " took the hit , no censure for those individuals concerned . I have always been wary of men in fancy suits .

Jizique

Jizique wrote: »

He got that - took an action which Davy settled

Here are the details of the settlement.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/action-against-davy-stockbrokers-over-bonds-sale-settled-1.2544439

Davy Stockbrokers and LeBruin knew he was a seller in "distress" and were highly unprofessional in their behaviour.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Nobody is excusing those crimes, i agree with you, but violent and drug crime is worse for society as a whole so the original posters complaint that there isnt as much outrage about white collar is the correct order things should be

Capital flight from the Country is bad for society. Nobody with money would stay if they can be targeted by immoral financial professionals.

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Capital flight from the Country is bad for society. Nobody with money would stay if they can be targeted by immoral financial professionals.

That already happens with our immorally high taxation, michael oleary is probably the only noteable wealthy irish person who pays tax here

completedit

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Nobody is excusing those crimes, i agree with you, but violent and drug crime is worse for society as a whole so the original posters complaint that there isnt as much outrage about white collar is the correct order things should be

It's definitely worse but I don't think there's a need to make an equivalence between the two.
In other countries they would definitely consider the white collar worse though, in countries which have much more endemic corruption than here.

PintOfView

It does raise the question as to whether this was the only time this happened?

Jizique

PintOfView wrote: »

It does raise the question as to whether this was the only time this happened?

Undoubtedly the most egregious (particularly as asset was not listed) but naive to think nobody ever got stiffed on a deal - private client side, property deals, structured finance side of MBOs would be the place to look.

BailMeOut

Who is a good alternativeti Davy for a self managed PRSA as I am seriously considering switching now?

Wombatman

BailMeOut wrote: »

Who is a good alternativeti Davy for a self managed PRSA as I am seriously considering switching now?

Fair play to you.

Change sheet here. Tabs at bottom of each company.

https://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/i_want_to_start_a_pension_prsa/prsas/prsa_products_and_charges_-_december_2020.xlsx

walshb

Greed. It’s at the core of so much of humans’ ills.

Very well off wealthy people...

And still that is not enough..

Weird way to be. Albeit very natural.. part of humanity!

Pelezico

Remember Martha Stewart? She was convicted for insider trading. Monies in question were tiny compared to her wealth.

Those boys got very greedy. It has cost them dearly.

Lad GAGA

Interesting week ahead on this story. The politicians will be out in force when the CBI appears before the Oireachtas on Tuesday, The CBI does not come out too well in all of this, based on what we know to date. Looks like the Davy's guys were giving them the run around and the senior individuals weren't punished by them (it would appear).

walshb

Lad GAGA wrote: »

Interesting week ahead on this story. The politicians will be out in force when the CBI appears before the Oireachtas on Tuesday, The CBI does not come out too well in all of this, based on what we know to date. Looks like the Davy's guys were giving them the run around and the senior individuals weren't punished by them (it would appear).

Yes.

These watchdogs and regulators seem to be never actually watching or regulating

But they’re great after the horse bolts!

Zebra3

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

All crime is bad and should be prosecuted but lets not pretend that fintan doing some dodgy traded is in any way comparable to some scumbag heroin dealer stabbing people over a 50 euro debt

Absolute nonsense.

Bad planning, fueled by the criminal actions of politicians and developers, led to horrendous areas left bereft of facilities, shops and good quality PT.

Our desperate lack of quality PT and safe cycling corridors in vast areas of the city down the years has led to a staggering number of deaths through air pollution directly caused by resulting high level of car usage.

White collar crime that goes unpunished also fuels a "if they can get away with it, so can I" attitude across society.

Tell me how

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

All crime is bad and should be prosecuted but lets not pretend that fintan doing some dodgy traded is in any way comparable to some scumbag heroin dealer stabbing people over a 50 euro debt

What a completely uninformed view. Nearly so far off track, I think it must be intentional.

Wanderer78

Floppybits wrote:

Shocking example of the lack of legislation to tackle this sort of white collar crime.

Shur nothing has actually changed in the financial sector since 08, maybe bailing them out with little or no conditions attached, was a bad idea!

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote:

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

Interesting, I'd imagine nobody has been truly harmed by financial sector crashes!

xl500

CB report states 16 individuals in Davy were involved in the scam on a client

Are any of those 16 still in the company

Why only 3 people named

Anyone who was involved in this is not a person to be trusted with clients financial information

TheValeyard

Seems to be a slow burner this.

Fake Scores

Davy himself they should put in jail for ten years.

Floppybits

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Shur nothing has actually changed in the financial sector since 08, maybe bailing them out with little or no conditions attached, was a bad idea!

This for me is a huge issue. When the banks were bailed out it should have come with stricter legislation for the financial sector which should have included jail time. Also give the CB and what ever other institutions more teeth to take on these financial institutions.

You can bet this Davy story is not even scratching the surface of what is going on in these financial institutions.

Wanderer78

Floppybits wrote: »

This for me is a huge issue. When the banks were bailed out it should have come with stricter legislation for the financial sector which should have included jail time. Also give the CB and what ever other institutions more teeth to take on these financial institutions.

You can bet this Davy story is not even scratching the surface of what is going on in these financial institutions.

its absolutely disgraceful what is unfolding here, we re actually in deep trouble with this one, and it will boomerang back around to us all again, the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate) in their entirety are now endangering all humans, including the wealthy

BanditLuke

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The types of violent and drug crimes committed by the poor are worse for society than white collar crimes.

All crime is bad and should be prosecuted but lets not pretend that fintan doing some dodgy traded is in any way comparable to some scumbag heroin dealer stabbing people over a 50 euro debt

What a narrow view. Fintan robbing someone with a ball point pen is as bad as Anto robbing someone with a knive. These financial criminals are the scum of the earth imo.

Wanderer78

BanditLuke wrote: »

What a narrow view. Fintan robbing someone with a ball point pen is as bad as Anto robbing someone with a knive. These financial criminals are the scum of the earth imo.

they actually could be far more dangerous than anto, but anto certainly isnt any angel

Mike Murdock

Floppybits wrote: »

This for me is a huge issue. When the banks were bailed out it should have come with stricter legislation for the financial sector which should have included jail time. Also give the CB and what ever other institutions more teeth to take on these financial institutions.

You can bet this Davy story is not even scratching the surface of what is going on in these financial institutions.

The bail-out should have been conditional on the Heads of the Banks resigning on the spot with no bonuses or walk-away cash. Then a 1-2 year period should have been implemented where the rest of the boards/management of the banks would be meticulously assessed by outside experts for suitability for their roles.

They weren't and they were back to their old ways pretty quickly - the Tracker scandal a good example.

Jizique

xl500 wrote: »

CB report states 16 individuals in Davy were involved in the scam on a client

Are any of those 16 still in the company

Why only 3 people named

Anyone who was involved in this is not a person to be trusted with clients financial information

Approx 8 have been named; I suspect a few others have left the firm in recent years

Harry Palmr

NTMA has struck by denying their ability to act as Primary Dealers of government bonds.

and here is the article:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-40240163.html

Good start. Now to get Ryanair to stop using them.

Floppybits

Wanderer78 wrote: »

they actually could be far more dangerous than anto, but anto certainly isnt any angel

Anto robbing someone on the street is not going to bankrupt a company where as Sneactha over in Davy's or some other financial institutions could.

completedit

That's sort of what I meant before. There not comparable and doing so achieves nothing. The reason some will make the equivalence is because its perceived that these types won't pay for their malpractice whereas Anto the scummer will be.
Indirectly these can destroy countries and societies and exasperated already existing problems. Accountability is essential and stigmatisation of such practices must act as a deterant for those of high society who justify their actions. Much more needs to be done in terms of vetting and accountability. All the more serious given the rationale the NTMA give.

BTW is this sort of thing connected to Basel Agreement or unrelated? Like I've been wondering how full proof Basel is lately in safeguarding our financial system and have been told that a 2008 will never happen again. Does this scandal tell us anything about the effectiveness of Basel? Or unrelated?