Penalty points 80 coming into 50 zone

Kevhog1988

Hi all,

Have a quick question. The missus was driving at the weekend and was stopped by a guard in a 50 zone. He was parked just within the 50 zone (about 8 metres) on the opposite side of the road and shot straight out behind her and pulled her over. She got a terrible fright and burst out crying as shes not someone who drives hard or has ever had points. She didnt query him really as she was crying etc so the guard just took her details and fecked off.
The garda told her she was doing 80 but never showed her any proof or camera showing her that she was doing 80. im just wondering how the speed would be calculated in this instance?. There was no handheld camera that he was using as far as im aware and he flew out behind us within seconds. He was so close to the sign for the change in speed we think if he had measured her speed it was within the 80 zone and not the 50 zone. I have also never seen a speed check taken from the opposite side of the road.

kaahooters

"Hi all,

Have a quick question. The missus was driving at the weekend and was stopped by a guard in a 50 zone. He was parked just within the 50 zone (about 8 metres) on the opposite side of the road and shot straight out behind her and pulled her over. She got a terrible fright and burst out crying as shes not someone who drives hard or has ever had points. She didnt query him really as she was crying etc so the guard just took her details and fecked off.
The garda told her she was doing 80 but never showed her any proof or camera showing her that she was doing 80. im just wondering how the speed would be calculated in this instance?. There was no handheld camera that he was using as far as im aware and he flew out behind us within seconds. He was so close to the sign for the change in speed we think if he had measured her speed it was within the 80 zone and not the 50 zone. I have also never seen a speed check taken from the opposite side of the road."

was she alone, or were you with her? (just confused on that)

Kevhog1988

kaahooters wrote: »

"Hi all,

Have a quick question. The missus was driving at the weekend and was stopped by a guard in a 50 zone. He was parked just within the 50 zone (about 8 metres) on the opposite side of the road and shot straight out behind her and pulled her over. She got a terrible fright and burst out crying as shes not someone who drives hard or has ever had points. She didnt query him really as she was crying etc so the guard just took her details and fecked off.
The garda told her she was doing 80 but never showed her any proof or camera showing her that she was doing 80. im just wondering how the speed would be calculated in this instance?. There was no handheld camera that he was using as far as im aware and he flew out behind us within seconds. He was so close to the sign for the change in speed we think if he had measured her speed it was within the 80 zone and not the 50 zone. I have also never seen a speed check taken from the opposite side of the road."

was she alone, or were you with her? (just confused on that)

I was a passenger

GreeBo

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

I was a passenger

What speed do you think she was doing?
I'm not clear on if you think she was doing 50 or she was doing 80 but still in the 80 zone?

ThewhiteJesus

Why would the gardai lie, tears will not get you out of this just pay the fine.

Kevhog1988

GreeBo wrote: »

What speed do you think she was doing?
I'm not clear on if you think she was doing 50 or she was doing 80 but still in the 80 zone?

I think she was doing 80 in the 80 zone and slowed to 50 at the sign albeit slowed quickly.

Kevhog1988

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

Why would the gardai lie, tears will not get you out of this just pay the fine.

What sort of a comment is that.... There is room for human error in any role and in this instance i believe the garda was incorrect due to how close he was to the sign and the manner in which he provided info to my partner. if she was obviously speeding id be the first to tell her to pay the fine and forget about it but something just seems wrong about this one.

Kevhog1988

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

I think she was doing 80 in the 80 zone and slowed to 50 at the sign albeit slowed quickly.

I think most people would slow in advance of the sign, from when they first see it. Once you are at the sign it is too late

ThewhiteJesus

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

What sort of a comment is that.... There is room for human error in any role and in this instance i believe the garda was incorrect due to how close he was to the sign and the manner in which he provided info to my partner. if she was obviously speeding id be the first to tell her to pay the fine and forget about it but something just seems wrong about this one.

Right, and you're not bias in any way of course.
Go ahead and complain and see how far it gets you, my advice is to take it on the chin and pay instead of crying/ starting threads about it.

kaahooters

speed limits are between the posted limites, pole to pole, so you should be at (or under) the limit when the car gets to the posted limit pole.

so, if he was 8m behind the pole and she was at 80 at the pole shes breaking the limit.

now, the guard would need to be a dick to enforce it, but, there ya go.

take the points / fine (if they come) and move on with life.

PoorFarmer

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

What sort of a comment is that.... There is room for human error in any role and in this instance i believe the garda was incorrect due to how close he was to the sign and the manner in which he provided info to my partner. if she was obviously speeding id be the first to tell her to pay the fine and forget about it but something just seems wrong about this one.

Why didnt you raise this issue at the time if you were in the car? Too late now really, pay the fine or contest it in court.

OP_rah

I remember when I was getting lessons for my driving test I used to slow down in advance of a speed sign. The instructor said that I only have to slow once I reach the sign so that's what I've always done since then. That's not to say he was right though.

Austmcc

You have to treat speed signs the same as country borders, definite and fixed. If its 50, its 50 from the sign and not 80 right to the 50 sign and then a few hundred meters to slow down to the correct speed. You correct your speed before entering the new zone (higher to lower) and the opposite for lower to higher zones.

Now I'm not getting at you, there should be leeway and that if you're slowing down while entering the new zone you are making the effort and in the process of correcting your speed. 100% different to booting it through a slow zone. Particularly where certain speed transitions are big jumps 100 to 60 etc.

But unfortunately as with any law, it depends in the garda you get and what mòod they're in. If they stop you 2 meters into a 50 and you're doing 55, technically they are lawfully allowed to stop and fine you albeit an arsehole move.

Seth Brundle

OP_rah wrote: »

I remember when I was getting lessons for my driving test I used to slow down in advance of a speed sign. The instructor said that I only have to slow once I reach the sign so that's what I've always done since then. That's not to say he was right though.

He wasn't though!

Kevhog1988

Austmcc wrote: »

You have to treat speed signs the same as country borders, definite and fixed. If its 50, its 50 from the sign and not 80 right to the 50 sign and then a few hundred meters to slow down to the correct speed. You correct your speed before entering the new zone (higher to lower) and the opposite for lower to higher zones.

Now I'm not getting at you, there should be leeway and that if you're slowing down while entering the new zone you are making the effort and in the process of correcting your speed. 100% different to booting it through a slow zone. Particularly where certain speed transitions are big jumps 100 to 60 etc.

But unfortunately as with any law, it depends in the garda you get and what mòod they're in. If they stop you 2 meters into a 50 and you're doing 55, technically they are lawfully allowed to stop and fine you albeit an arsehole move.

Completely agree, if you were speeding you deserve the points but a few questions:

1: Should the guard have shown her proof of her speed
2: if the guard was setup on the opposite side of the road, 8m from the change in speed sign at what point was he assessing the speed she was doing.

Seth Brundle

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

Completely agree, if you were speeding you deserve the points but a few questions:

1: Should the guard have shown her proof of her speed
2: if the guard was setup on the opposite side of the road, 8m from the change in speed sign at what point was he assessing the speed she was doing.

1. no
2. did you ask him? Not much point asking now.

baldshin

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

Completely agree, if you were speeding you deserve the points but a few questions:

1: Should the guard have shown her proof of her speed
2: if the guard was setup on the opposite side of the road, 8m from the change in speed sign at what point was he assessing the speed she was doing.

If they had a speed gun, which it seems they didn't:

1. They should show the driver the speed on the gun
2. If only parked 8 metres inside the 50 zone, the gun could not possibly read the speed from within 8 metres reliably. Speed is calculated from a good distance away, so they would have only been able to measure the speed in the 80 zone.

Best to wait and see if a ticket comes and, if it does, decide whether to fight it in court, which you'll likely win. However, it'll mean a lot of stress and a day off work, so best deciding if the fine is worth paying.

Kevhog1988

baldshin wrote: »

If they had a speed gun, which it seems they didn't:

1. They should show the driver the speed on the gun
2. If only parked 8 metres inside the 50 zone, the gun could not possibly read the speed from within 8 metres reliably. Speed is calculated from a good distance away, so they would have only been able to measure the speed in the 80 zone.

Best to wait and see if a ticket comes and, if it does, decide whether to fight it in court, which you'll likely win. However, it'll mean a lot of stress and a day off work, so best deciding if the fine is worth paying.

Fine came this morning. thats why i posted the thread

Austmcc

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

Completely agree, if you were speeding you deserve the points but a few questions:

1: Should the guard have shown her proof of her speed
2: if the guard was setup on the opposite side of the road, 8m from the change in speed sign at what point was he assessing the speed she was doing.

1. I'm not sure they have to actually show you anymore. They do need proof/a record to issue points and it should be on the letter you receive from what I know. But I'll hold my hands up and say I do not know for sure.

2. Very good question and should have been asked at the time the garda was there. The opposite side of the road is not something I would bother questioning, lasers work regardless, but at what point he measured your speed. Wait for the letter, assess what it says and contest it if you wish. It would be your judgement call as only you/your partner were there and itll come down to your word vs the garda. If you feel you have a case that can be proven by how in the hell he measured your speed and pulled you over in such a short distance it could probably be argued with pictures/maps and claim its unreasonable to believe he clocked your speed the second you drove past the sign.

But legally he is correct and it would be the judges discretion on whether to let it slide or not.

Hellrazer

Regarding the speed trap being "8m from the sign" if Im not mistaken there were a load of points dismissed a few years back because of this on the N4 - 80kmph into 60kmph and the van was literally parked at the 60kmph sign - not even 8m from it. There was a similar case in Killarney where the van was doing the same.

I think the judge said that people should have time to slow down to the lower speed and the van needed to be a certain distance from the actual speed notification sign - I cant remember the figure but 300 meters rings a bell somewhere.

drunkmonkey

80 is a very round number, what's the odds. If he was only 8 meters from the sign, the speed she was going wasn't in the 50 zone I'd imagine, ask your solicitor.

Kevhog1988

drunkmonkey wrote: »

80 is a very round number, what's the odds. If he was only 8 meters from the sign, the speed she was going wasn't in the 50 zone I'd imagine, ask your solicitor.

He said to her you were doing around 80 coming into the 50 and then the fine came today stating 80. Ive only ever been stopped for speeding once in all my years driving, incidentally at the same village but entering from the other side and that guard showed me the gun at the time and i had no issues taking the points/fine. The whole series of event for this just seem a bit strange to me.

If she goes to court now she runs the risk of increasing the points i understand which could have impact on the price of insurance etc?.

kaahooters

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

He said to her you were doing around 80 coming into the 50 and then the fine came today stating 80. Ive only ever been stopped for speeding once in all my years driving, incidentally at the same village but entering from the other side and that guard showed me the gun at the time and i had no issues taking the points/fine. The whole series of event for this just seem a bit strange to me.

If she goes to court now she runs the risk of increasing the points i understand which could have impact on the price of insurance etc?.

ah sure feck it, that guard was completly wrong, your completly in the right. show this thread to the judge and he'll side with you.

kirving

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

Why would the gardai lie...

I'm astonished that you can say with such certainty, that no Garda would ever lie about anything, ever.

Even if you could say that they were just simply incorrect as opposed to lying, it's so endemic that even the CSO cannot stand over the figures because they make so little sense.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-postpones-publishing-garda-crime-data-again-1.3213448

I just fail to understand how a lone Garda with no equipment, standing 8m inside a 50 zone, could reasonably state that someone was doing 80km/h for that 8 meters. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a Garda doing speed checks to have speed gun like.

irelandrover

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

I think she was doing 80 in the 80 zone and slowed to 50 at the sign albeit slowed quickly.

This sounds like she was doing 80 right up to the sign and then slowed down. So therefore she was doing more than 50 in the 50 zone.

From the guards point of view they probably saw someone doing 80 to the sign and then slam on the brakes when they saw the guard as you say she slowed quickly.

Turbohymac

Ya..irrelevant what side of the road the cop was at unfortunately your oh should have ensured that prior to passing the 50zone she had reduced to the new lower limit.. probably 3points but shouldn't affect her insurance unless she already has some points or collects more during the next 3years.
I honestly think the speed camera Van's are far worse. As if they set their detection speed only 1km above the actual limit well its like shooting fish in a barrel..at least with the cops I'd imagine there would be more flexibility.
Its quite possible especially as you were only the passenger that your oh could easily be doing 60 passing that 50 zone sign.. 60 is still slow these days especially as some 50 zones are well outside of built up areas.
Wait and see what the postman brings but most likely she was a decent percentage over the 50 km limit..
It happens and the camera Van's and cops are everywhere this weather..

reubenreuben

Hellrazer wrote: »

Regarding the speed trap being "8m from the sign" if Im not mistaken there were a load of points dismissed a few years back because of this on the N4 - 80kmph into 60kmph and the van was literally parked at the 60kmph sign - not even 8m from it. There was a similar case in Killarney where the van was doing the same.

I think the judge said that people should have time to slow down to the lower speed and the van needed to be a certain distance from the actual speed notification sign - I cant remember the figure but 300 meters rings a bell somewhere.

300 metres to lose 20kmph!
Braking Fred Flintstone style should suffice there.

Kevhog1988

kirving wrote: »

I'm astonished that you can say with such certainty, that no Garda would ever lie about anything, ever.

Even if you could say that they were just simply incorrect as opposed to lying, it's so endemic that even the CSO cannot stand over the figures because they make so little sense.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-postpones-publishing-garda-crime-data-again-1.3213448

I just fail to understand how a lone Garda with no equipment, standing 8m inside a 50 zone, could reasonably state that someone was doing 80km/h for that 8 meters. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a Garda doing speed checks to have speed gun like.

He wasnt even standing outside the car with a gun, he was in the car with the window up. unless the camera was dash mounted i just dont know how he assessed the speed.

Kevhog1988

spot where garda was located versus the sign that reduces to 50km.

reubenreuben

At the end of the day the speed was in excessive of 50 so pay the fine.

No one's perfect, it's happened to lots of people.

kirving

kirving wrote: »

I'm astonished that you can say with such certainty, that no Garda would ever lie about anything, ever.

Even if you could say that they were just simply incorrect as opposed to lying, it's so endemic that even the CSO cannot stand over the figures because they make so little sense.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-postpones-publishing-garda-crime-data-again-1.3213448

I just fail to understand how a lone Garda with no equipment, standing 8m inside a 50 zone, could reasonably state that someone was doing 80km/h for that 8 meters. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a Garda doing speed checks to have speed gun like.

He never said no garda would lie ever. What an absurd comment.

And, what does "have speed gun like" mean?

kaahooters

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

spot where garda was located versus the sign that reduces to 50km.

so entering the 50 over the hill?

take the fine and be done with it.

callaway92

Give it up OP.

Nothing will come of this. Take the damn punishment (in this case that is directed to your wife) and move on.

Why is this even mentioned in the first post: "She got a terrible fright and burst out crying as shes not someone who drives hard or has ever had points. She didnt query him really as she was crying etc so the guard just took her details and fecked off."

Just accept it and move on.

GreeBo

i'd be contesting it if the Gard had no evidence of what speed you were travelling at, what if he had decided you were doing 55 in a 50?

reubenreuben

GreeBo wrote: »

i'd be contesting it if the Gard had no evidence of what speed you were travelling at, what if he had decided you were doing 55 in a 50?

Real 55 can easily show as 60 on the car speedometer.
Guilty as charged sir.

biko

GreeBo wrote: »

i'd be contesting it if the Gard had no evidence of what speed you were travelling at, what if he had decided you were doing 55 in a 50?

That's a "what if" we'll never know since it's not part of this case.

OP, just pay, or take it to court. Learn from this and be careful about speed changes.

GreeBo

biko wrote: »

That's a "what if" we'll never know since it's not part of this case.

OP, just pay, or take it to court. Learn from this and be careful about speed changes.

sure, but you dont just bend over and take it otherwise that "what if" will turn into reality.

If they had no way of determining your speed they cant fine you for doing "80" anymore than they could say you were doing 180.

BorneTobyWilde

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

spot where garda was located versus the sign that reduces to 50km.

That says 80 not 50. I don't get it.

newmember2

GreeBo wrote: »

sure, but you dont just bend over and take it otherwise that "what if" will turn into reality.

If they had no way of determining your speed they cant fine you for doing "80" anymore than they could say you were doing 180.

Indeed. If your wife thinks she may have been penalised unfairly then go to court and explain it to the judge and let him decide if the Garda was being unreasonable.

Green Peter

Thank God she didn't kill someone, there's a good chance she'd have driven at that speed through the village. All's well that ends well! Pay the fine!

BorneTobyWilde

50km is very slow, you'd want to be well reduced in speed entering that zone.

Tombo2001

Only thoughts on this are
(i) Guard was doing his/ her job. They are not randomly sitting there making up numbers and pulling people over based on that. If he says 80, then it was 80.

(ii) I'd have some sympathy if he was saying you are in a 50 zone doing 56 or 54.

But in a 50 doing 80.......really? and you think somehow you are getting a raw deal?

BorneTobyWilde

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

That says 80 not 50. I don't get it.

I imagine that is where the guard was parked watching them approaching the 50 zone.

Tombo2001

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

50km is very slow, you'd want to be well reduced in speed entering that zone.

I wouldnt consider it slow at all.....you stand on a footpath and have a HGV drive by you at 50k per hour......thats not slow.

Seth Brundle

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

He was parked just within the 50 zone (about 8 metres) on the opposite side of the road and shot straight out behind her and pulled her over.

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

spot where garda was located versus the sign that reduces to 50km.

Looking at your picture, he was well more than 8m inside the zone.

Secondly, he had plenty of time to watch her speed decrease prior to crossing into the 50km zone. He obviously could see that she wasn't slowing down and could prepare himself for the subsequent stop.

Lastly, is she blind? She had loads of time to see the car stopped inside the zone and hit the anchors? If she failed to see him, then she possibly might have also failed to see the old woman crossing the road or the small kid on the bike.

xabi

How the hell did you not spot him well in advance, that looks wide open.

reubenreuben

If you use the same speed difference of 50 to 80 in a 120 zone, you are looking at 192 kph

just pay the fine yer tight git and stick yer glasses on next time yer driving

Kevhog1988

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

That says 80 not 50. I don't get it.

I took the pic from where the guard was parked

Kevhog1988

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Only thoughts on this are
(i) Guard was doing his/ her job. They are not randomly sitting there making up numbers and pulling people over based on that. If he says 80, then it was 80.

(ii) I'd have some sympathy if he was saying you are in a 50 zone doing 56 or 54.

But in a 50 doing 80.......really? and you think somehow you are getting a raw deal?

I dont think she was doing 80 in a 50. The garda said that but i dont believe he was correct and saw no proof of the fact.

newmember2

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

I dont think she was doing 80 in a 50. The garda said that but i dont believe he was correct and saw no proof of the fact.

I think you're feeling partly responsible as she was deep in conversation with you whilst paying no heed to oncoming speed checks...:eek:

Kevhog1988

newmember? wrote: »

I think you're feeling partly responsible as she was deep in conversation with you whilst paying no heed to oncoming speed checks...:eek:

Lol im in no way responsible but have shown her the thread and responses so up to her to decide what way she goes now.

Thanks for the info anyone has provided