Should I continue to be a RC

cnoc

With 2 more priests in the news today concerning sexual abuse, and inappropriate behaviour, should I remain in the RC church. I will not turn my back on my belief in God.

As a Catholic, leaving the Roman Catholic Church (I'm presuming you are not talking about going to, say, an Orthodox Catholic Church. If you are then much of what follows is moot) would represent turning away from, and rejecting, God in a number of ways. Not least abandoning the Mass and of course the Eucharist. You would also be abandoning the sacraments in general. In other words, seriously damaging your relationship with God and, with the absence of the sacraments, making things altogether more difficult for yourself regarding your eternal fate.

So it is not a decision to be taken lightly.

Is your temptation to 'leave' based solely upon your revulsion (natural and understandable) at the sexual abuse scandals? If so, and you have no deeper theological concerns, then the answer is simple. You should not leave.

There is no logical consistency in leaving, abandoning all the aforementioned, because men have sinned (as they always will). This is even the case when severe, grievous sin has been committed at many levels by those who were given positions of trust and power. This is not to say that the correct response is to shrug your shoulders and forget about it. That would be wrong.

The correct response is to be furious. Then to pray, for the victims especially, and the perpetrators too (an altogether challenging prospect I know, but that is the challenge Christ gives). The laity will have a dominant role in the RCC in the future, certainly on the parish level. You should get involved and make the Church better (of course lots of work has been done already on making child protection a central pillar of Church life). Leaving solves nothing, you are the one who loses.

cnoc

Thank you for your response.
I am (was due to Covid) a weekly mass attendee and communicant. My temptation in leaving is based on the number of abuses by religious. It is very prevalent.
I am going off line and will not be on until tomorrow afternoon/evening.

Tony EH

cnoc wrote: »

With 2 more priests in the news today concerning sexual abuse, and inappropriate behaviour, should I remain in the RC church. I will not turn my back on my belief in God.

Your belief in any god doesn't require a church.

tdf7187

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

As a Catholic, leaving the Roman Catholic Church (I'm presuming you are not talking about going to, say, an Orthodox Catholic Church. If you are then much of what follows is moot) would represent turning away from, and rejecting, God in a number of ways. Not least abandoning the Mass and of course the Eucharist. You would also be abandoning the sacraments in general. In other words, seriously damaging your relationship with God and, with the absence of the sacraments, making things altogether more difficult for yourself regarding your eternal fate.

So it is not a decision to be taken lightly.

Is your temptation to 'leave' based solely upon your revulsion (natural and understandable) at the sexual abuse scandals? If so, and you have no deeper theological concerns, then the answer is simple. You should not leave.

There is no logical consistency in leaving, abandoning all the aforementioned, because men have sinned (as they always will). This is even the case when severe, grievous sin has been committed at many levels by those who were given positions of trust and power. This is not to say that the correct response is to shrug your shoulders and forget about it. That would be wrong.

The correct response is to be furious. Then to pray, for the victims especially, and the perpetrators too (an altogether challenging prospect I know, but that is the challenge Christ gives). The laity will have a dominant role in the RCC in the future, certainly on the parish level. You should get involved and make the Church better (of course lots of work has been done already on making child protection a central pillar of Church life). Leaving solves nothing, you are the one who loses.

You claim to know the mind of God? What an arrogant presumption.

looksee

'Where two or three are gathered in my sight, there am I' (I hope that is an accurate rendition, I didn't check it, just a phrase I remember).

You are the church. You have chosen to belong (or more likely were born to it) to a church that has weighed itself down with tradition and possessions and power, so inevitably there will be venality, self-serving and sometimes evil deeds. Do you want to stay within it and do your best to help sort its problems, or reject it? You are the only person who can decide that.

I know if I were within the RC church I would be much more offended by the attitudes of the hierarchy towards these behaviours than by the men themselves. They should be dealt with, certainly, in the same way that similar non-church offenders are dealt with. But their superiors generally take no responsibility for enabling and allowing those offences.

It might be worth looking at the cases that have come to light over recent years though. How many of them are historic? Have there been any recent cases of abuse? Being historic does not make them acceptable, but it might indicate whether the cases that have been dealt with are part of a cleansing process and that things are in fact improving. I don't know, I have not done the research, but it might be an angle you could consider.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

'Where two or three are gathered in my sight, there am I' (I hope that is an accurate rendition, I didn't check it, just a phrase I remember).

You are the church. You have chosen to belong (or more likely were born to it) to a church that has weighed itself down with tradition and possessions and power, so inevitably there will be venality, self-serving and sometimes evil deeds. Do you want to stay within it and do your best to help sort its problems, or reject it? You are the only person who can decide that.

I know if I were within the RC church I would be much more offended by the attitudes of the hierarchy towards these behaviours than by the men themselves. They should be dealt with, certainly, in the same way that similar non-church offenders are dealt with. But their superiors generally take no responsibility for enabling and allowing those offences.

It might be worth looking at the cases that have come to light over recent years though. How many of them are historic? Have there been any recent cases of abuse? Being historic does not make them acceptable, but it might indicate whether the cases that have been dealt with are part of a cleansing process and that things are in fact improving. I don't know, I have not done the research, but it might be an angle you could consider.

I get your point and would agree with it in general, but it must be said that there will be venality, self-serving and evil deeds in everything that involves humans (not that this means it is acceptable!). It is not a consequence of the magesterium or tradition of the Catholic Church (which is a great gift) possessions or power.

As a Catholic, (I mention this again as OP indicated/implied that they are in theological agreement with the Church and basically are just sickened by the sexual abuse) it is necessary to point out that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and it is dangerous to reject this as you are cutting yourself off from the Mass, the sacraments and the associated graces.

breezy1985

cnoc wrote: »

With 2 more priests in the news today concerning sexual abuse, and inappropriate behaviour, should I remain in the RC church. I will not turn my back on my belief in God.

The RC church has little to do with God it cares only for power and money. Just believe in God on your own terms and don't help prop up these evil people

looksee

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

I get your point and would agree with it in general, but it must be said that there will be venality, self-serving and evil deeds in everything that involves humans (not that this means it is acceptable!). It is not a consequence of the magesterium or tradition of the Catholic Church (which is a great gift) possessions or power.

Of course there is - venality, self serving etc - wherever there are humans, but the church educates its priests and gives them authority and demands respect (or at least it did up till very recently) so they might be expected to be generally better behaved than the average human.

If the church had continued in the humility, poverty and sacrifice that it started out with would it have the power and wealth that it does now? And if it did not have that power and wealth and taken to itself the authority that it gives/gave to its priests would the same type of people have sometimes been attracted to that calling?

breezy1985

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

I get your point and would agree with it in general, but it must be said that there will be venality, self-serving and evil deeds in everything that involves humans (not that this means it is acceptable!). It is not a consequence of the magesterium or tradition of the Catholic Church (which is a great gift) possessions or power.

As a Catholic, (I mention this again as OP indicated/implied that they are in theological agreement with the Church and basically are just sickened by the sexual abuse) it is necessary to point out that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and it is dangerous to reject this as you are cutting yourself off from the Mass, the sacraments and the associated graces.

But if the people administering these sacraments and claiming to be the voice of Jesus are evil is it not your duty to call out these merchants and money changers in your temple

Manach

The OP might try /r/Catholicism/ on Reddit. There have been many discussions on these scandals and the attempts by both clergy and laity to reform and strengthen the Church from within to deal with this.

Manach

Manach wrote: »

The OP might try /r/Catholicism/ on Reddit. There have been many discussions on these scandals and the attempts by both clergy and laity to reform and strengthen the Church from within to deal with this.

Good shout.

This is a good book too: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Letter-Suffering-Church-Bishop-Speaks-ebook/dp/B07RLZ5TMT

The sexual abuse scandal has gripped the Catholic Church for the past thirty years, and continues to wreak havoc even today.

It's been a diabolical masterpiece, one that has compromised the work of the Church in every way and has left countless lives in ruin.

Many Catholics are understandably asking, “Why should I stay? Why not abandon this sinking ship before it drags me or my children under?"

In this stirring manifesto, Bishop Robert Barron, founder of Word on Fire Catholic Ministries and Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, explains why this is not the time to leave, but the time to stay and fight.

Reading the current crisis through the lenses of Scripture and Church history, Bishop Barron shows that we have faced such egregious scandals before; that the spiritual treasures of the Church were preserved by holy men and women who recommitted themselves to fighting evil; and that there is a clear path forward for us today.

For Catholics questioning their faith, searching desperately for encouragement and hope, this book will offer reasons to stay and fight for the Body of Christ.

looksee

Mod: breezy1985 could you moderate your language please. The term evil is very emotive and subjective, better to refer to evil deeds than describe people as evil.

Manach, while there may well be discussions on reddit, this is also a discussion platform and debates may be had here.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

Of course there is - venality, self serving etc - wherever there are humans, but the church educates its priests and gives them authority and demands respect (or at least it did up till very recently) so they might be expected to be generally better behaved than the average human.

If the church had continued in the humility, poverty and sacrifice that it started out with would it have the power and wealth that it does now? And if it did not have that power and wealth and taken to itself the authority that it gives/gave to its priests would the same type of people have sometimes been attracted to that calling?

Obviously things had gone wrong, but you write as if sexual abuse is something that is inherent in Catholicism, or that it was all universally evil and that there is/was no good to be found.

An argument that the Church was good, but has somewhat lost its way, is more of an argument to stay and fix it, no?

KaneToad

cnoc wrote: »

Thank you for your response.
I am (was due to Covid) a weekly mass attendee and communicant. My temptation in leaving is based on the number of abuses by religious. It is very prevalent.
I am going off line and will not be on until tomorrow afternoon/evening.

Not a Catholic but can't see why you'd leave, if you believe in the teachings of that church. The despicable acts of some of its members/clergy are not based on the religion's philosophy, or are they?

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

But if the people administering these sacraments and claiming to be the voice of Jesus are evil is it not your duty to call out these merchants and money changers in your temple

Call wrongdoers out yes (Priests are not all bad people, it goes without saying, nor is being a priest an inherently bad thing), and set it right yes, not abandon the temple and set up your own...

looksee

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

Obviously things had gone wrong, but you write as if sexual abuse is something that is inherent in Catholicism, or that it was all universally evil and that there is/was no good to be found.

An argument that the Church was good, but has somewhat lost its way, is more of an argument to stay and fix it, no?

No, I don't think I said that (sexual abuse being inherent in Catholicism) or that there was no good to be found.

opawaman

cnoc wrote: »

With 2 more priests in the news today concerning sexual abuse, and inappropriate behaviour, should I remain in the RC church. I will not turn my back on my belief in God.

I have rejected this God many years ago.



While priest was raping me, he kept saying that he was making me a child of god.



Religion and culture are just methods of brainwashing.



Free yourself from these superstitions.

breezy1985

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

Call wrongdoers out yes (Priests are not all bad people, it goes without saying, nor is being a priest an inherently bad thing), and set it right yes, not abandon the temple and set up your own...

But what is rotten about the whole thing is not that some priests committed evil deeds but these evil deeds were covered up by people very high up in the church. Possibly even as high as Ratzinger. The Vatican is a building that can be taken control of by people who may or may not speak for God and control of the Vatican should not be unquestioned control of the word of God

looksee

looksee wrote: »

No, I don't think I said that (sexual abuse being inherent in Catholicism) or that there was no good to be found.

You didn't say it, true, nor did I say you said it.

looksee

Mod: Opawaman you are welcome to post in the Christianity forum, however you may not come in to throw around references to brainwashing and superstition in respect of Christianity. You may courteously make your point, keeping in mind the ethos of the forum.

Please read the forum charter before posting again.

Please do not discuss this warning on thread, if you have any comment make it by PM.

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

But what is rotten about the whole thing is not that some priests committed evil deeds but these evil deeds were covered up by people very high up in the church. Possibly even as high as Ratzinger. The Vatican is a building that can be taken control of by people who may or may not speak for God and control of the Vatican should not be unquestioned control of the word of God

As a self confessed "staunch atheist", who would "pick satan over God if it came down to it" what do you care about the word of God, seen as you don't believe God exists?

I don't point this out to antagonize you, but when you purport to offer spiritual advice to someone like the OP who is asking for it, as you have done in this thread, you should disclose where you are coming from. This is necessary for an honest discussion.

breezy1985

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

As a self confessed "staunch atheist", who would "pick satan over God if it came down to it" what do you care about the word of God, seen as you don't believe God exists?

I don't point this out to antagonize you, but when you purport to offer spiritual advise to someone like the OP who is asking for it, as you have done in this thread, you should disclose where you are coming from. This is necessary for an honest discussion.

I have never hidden who I am. I am trying to approach the OP from within their own rules. They have made clear that they will continue to believe in God so working with that in mind my advice would be to leave the rotten to the core church and follow God either alone or with like minded people.


I dont need to be a believer to see that supporting a group that have done the things the RC church have done and covet power and money as they do is wrong

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

The RC church has little to do with God it cares only for power and money. Just believe in God on your own terms and don't help prop up these evil people

breezy1985 wrote: »

But if the people administering these sacraments and claiming to be the voice of Jesus are evil is it not your duty to call out these merchants and money changers in your temple

breezy1985 wrote: »

But what is rotten about the whole thing is not that some priests committed evil deeds but these evil deeds were covered up by people very high up in the church. Possibly even as high as Ratzinger. The Vatican is a building that can be taken control of by people who may or may not speak for God and control of the Vatican should not be unquestioned control of the word of God

breezy1985 wrote: »

I have never hidden who I am. I am trying to approach the OP from within their own rules. They have made clear that they will continue to believe in God so working with that in mind my advice would be to leave the rotten to the core church and follow God either alone or with like minded people.


I dont need to be a believer to see that supporting a group that have done the things the RC church have done and covet power and money as they do is wrong

Come on now, you've been rumbled. When telling someone how you think they should worship God, i.e. spiritual advice, it is very much a salient fact you left out there, which surely colours any advice you give. But OP knows now, and can make an informed decision on how he/she takes your advice.

breezy1985

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

Come on now, you've been rumbled. When telling someone how you think they should worship God, i.e. spiritual advice, it is very much a salient fact you left out there, which surely colours any advice you give. But OP knows now, and can make an informed decision on how he/she takes your advice.

Oh no Ive been rumbled :eek:. Im saying the church is corrupt and supporting it is a bad decision. That is true no matter what God I do or dont believe in

smacl

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

Come on now, you've been rumbled. When telling someone how you think they should worship God, i.e. spiritual advice, it is very much a salient fact you left out there, which surely colours any advice you give. But OP knows now, and can make an informed decision on how he/she takes your advice.

Mod warning: Play the ball and not the man, this forum is open to both Christians and non Christians. Should the OP having been looking for a solely Christian response they could have tagged the thread accordingly.

smacl

breezy1985 wrote: »

Oh no Ive been rumbled :eek:. Im saying the church is corrupt and supporting it is a bad decision. That is true no matter what God I do or dont believe in

Mod: Please avoid sweeping generalisations that attack the church in this form. As you've already been warned, carded for ignoring mod instruction. Any response to the feedback thread or via PM only please.

homer911

OP, there is sin and sinfulness in every church (Roman Catholic or otherwise). If you believe in the church teachings, then why would you leave? In my own church, a few years ago there was a falling out over a point of teaching that was biblically sound. As a result, a number of people left the church, they felt their personal philosophy was more important and non-negotiable. I understand that only a small percentage are now attending any church at all. What did their stance gain them? What did their stance gain us who disagreed and remained? We are all losers sadly.

If you do decide to leave, don't leave until you know where you are going and why..

santana75

cnoc wrote: »

With 2 more priests in the news today concerning sexual abuse, and inappropriate behaviour, should I remain in the RC church. I will not turn my back on my belief in God.

Yeah its bleak alright. It seems like every day theres a new scandal, another spiritual leader fallen. And the most disturbing part is that it is more often than not sex based. There was a discussion in another thread about the issue of sex and to be sure it is the way in which the enemy tries to discredit God and his message the most in this world. Think about it, what better way to discredit God than to discredit his representatives on this earth. Most people wont discern between the message and the messenger, they'll throw them both out at the same time. Like you said, dont turn from God, no matter how many so called spiritual leaders fall away. Dont forget that all of this was predicted by Jesus 2000 years ago. He said clearly that in the last days many will fall away, that there'll be wolves in sheeps clothing within the church. Dont forget either how the church started, it was a few people meeting together in their homes. You can have your own church with a couple of friends meeting in person or online. But even then you will always have your personal relationship with God, nobody can take that from you. Its interesting that when Jesus was preaching in the synagogue a demon possessed man stepped from the aisles and started shouting at him........in the church. Dont mix the organisation that is the church up with who God is.

Hotblack Desiato

santana75 wrote: »

Think about it, what better way to discredit God than to discredit his representatives on this earth.

They chose to do wrong, and others in positions of authority chose to cover up their wrongdoing. I think the RC laity deserve full accountability on the part of each member of the current hierarchy - what did they know and when? What criminal acts did they report to the civil authorities and what, if any, acts did they not? But there is nothing except hand-wringing about how awful it all was. No accountability.

Other posters have mentioned an increased role for the laity and given the decline in the number of priests this is an obvious necessity. However as an ex-RC it's hard for me to see how the laity can have any influence over the church, unlike in the reformed churches. My impression is that the RCC is happy for the laity to carry out specific duties but not to have any input into how the church is organised or run. If I am wrong on this or my impressions are outdated then please correct me but from someone who is now on the outside, the RCC looked like, and still looks like, an entirely "top down" organisation where all inputs and decisions flow downwards.

cnoc

cnoc wrote: »

With 2 more priests in the news today concerning sexual abuse, and inappropriate behaviour, should I remain in the RC church. I will not turn my back on my belief in God.

You need to look into your heart, pray hard, and do what you feel is right for you. Your relationship with God, is your relationship with God. If you feel that it is time for your to part company with the RC, then you need to do that.

Victoria Old-fashioned Quarterfinal wrote: »

As a Catholic, leaving the Roman Catholic Church (I'm presuming you are not talking about going to, say, an Orthodox Catholic Church. If you are then much of what follows is moot) would represent turning away from, and rejecting, God in a number of ways. Not least abandoning the Mass and of course the Eucharist. You would also be abandoning the sacraments in general. In other words, seriously damaging your relationship with God and, with the absence of the sacraments, making things altogether more difficult for yourself regarding your eternal fate.

Interesting stuff. Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church? Can you expand on the bit in bold, please? I'm ex-LDS. I left the church, officially, a few years ago, and I am going to be cast into outer darkness when I die, in the minds of many.

santana75

tara2k wrote: »

Interesting stuff. Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church? Can you expand on the bit in bold, please? I'm ex-LDS. I left the church, officially, a few years ago, and I am going to be cast into outer darkness when I die, in the minds of many.

Yeah this is what bothers me about the church (as in the organisation that is the Church, not the body of Christ as Paul called it). This has been going on since the beginning, one faction attacking the other both claiming to represent the true church. All it shows is the sinful nature of fallen man is alive and well within the church just as much as its alive and well in the world. A personal relationship with God through his word is the most important part of anyone's journey. The church cam be taken away and corrupted, but Gods word is incorruptible.

tara2k

tara2k wrote: »

Interesting stuff. Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church? Can you expand on the bit in bold, please? I'm ex-LDS. I left the church, officially, a few years ago, and I am going to be cast into outer darkness when I die, in the minds of many.

Well yes, it is the 'one true church', founded by Christ, with an unbroken line of apostolic succession.

That is not to say that if you are not a Catholic you are going to hell or something like that, no one knows. My point is that without the graces from the Eucharist, and confession in particular (to name only two), it is a bit of an uphill battle from the get-go. It's not impossible by any means of course, sort of like if I don't prepare optimally with the right gear etc. to scale a mountain I will not necessarily do badly, I've just made it harder for myself.

looksee

Of course, on the other hand, if you are not a Catholic you are not all that likely to believe you will go to hell.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

Of course, on the other hand, if you are not a Catholic you are not all that likely to believe you will go to hell.

Who knows, some people get a fierce dose of the scruples and think themselves damned. If you are a Catholic a good confession can cure this, can be more difficult for others. You could think all the Catholics will go to hell, or perhaps everyone else not affiliated with your own particular christian religious denomination is damned. Some of the protestant denominations (of course there is a huge variance) tend to be far more hell, fire and brimstone than Catholics.

Catholic teaching is fairly nuanced on this, personally I would like to think that the majority of people, be they Catholic or otherwise, might stumble over the line into purgatory and hell just has the truly culpable, terrible people. But ultimately we don't know who is in hell, and we can only be sure that a certain number (i.e. the documented Saints, there are surely loads who lived quiet saintly lives) are in heaven.