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Would you do business with or through Davy Stockbrokers

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭ Cute Hoor


    The saving grace for them is probably that it was 7 years ago, wouldn't be rushing headlong in to them this afternoon though


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    They were doing this just after getting rapped on the knuckles for destroying the trust fund of a young man who was orphaned at a young age.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    haphaphap wrote: »
    Are Davy Stockbrokers just pure filth or have they redeeming qualities?
    Make a case for them.
    Who would do business with them based on experiences like these.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0302/1200374-central-bank-fines-davy/

    This was all happening at the time that this was trundling through the courts.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/stockbroker-gambled-with-orphans-5m-fortune-30173016.html

    Well first of all these are very specific events and very unlikely to fall within then the range of transactions undertaken by people on this forum, they are most likely to be influenced by price rather that ethics!

    After all they have no qualms about:
    - Their brokers auctioning their trade to the highest bidder
    - Lending out their positions
    - Buying fractions of shares they don't actually own
    and so on

    That said you don't seem to be a regularly post here and are clearly not considering doing business with them, so what is your beef? Just a disgruntled individual wanting to stir it up or what????


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Well first of all these are very specific events and very unlikely to fall within then the range of transactions undertaken by people on this forum, they are most likely to be influenced by price rather that ethics!

    After all they have no qualms about:
    - Their brokers auctioning their trade to the highest bidder
    - Lending out their positions
    - Buying fractions of shares they don't actually own
    and so on

    That said you don't seem to be a regularly post here and are clearly not considering doing business with them, so what is your beef? Just a disgruntled individual wanting to stir it up or what????
    You are right in that I don't post here often. I hold a lot of shares in a few boring(blue chip type) companies, adding a few thousand euro each month as I go, rarely sell.

    I have no dealings with Davy but they just seem like one of those rentseekers aligned to the Establishment in Ireland who appear to not be held properly accountable
    for their actions and those two reports are just ones which came to light.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ brucky


    Will they still be the state media’s got to people for investment tips? Are the people involved still in the company, or have they been promoted to operate in other financial institutions?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭ dubrov


    brucky wrote: »
    Will they still be the state media’s got to people for investment tips? Are the people involved still in the company, or have they been promoted to operate in other financial institutions?

    Does it matter? Those sort of practices tend to be endemic in a company and come from the top down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,228 ✭✭✭ The J Stands for Jay


    Any time I've checked, they've always been quite expensive for execution only services. I also recall them selling entirely unsuitable investments to Credit Unions a number of years ago. They either don't know their stuff, or they don't care. Which seems similar to yesterday's story. I haven't read about the orphan yet


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    haphaphap wrote: »
    I have no dealings with Davy but they just seem like one of those rentseekers aligned to the Establishment in Ireland who appear to not be held properly accountable
    for their actions and those two reports are just ones which came to light.

    In other words another hair-brained consistory theory!

    There will always be crooks and scammers in every business, it's an accepted fact. It's why we put all the those checks and balances into the system, regulate it and supervise it. And revise the approach when it is found wanting.

    You should take comfort from the fact that most of these incidents occur outside the normal business of brokerages - this is largely due to the fact that at this stage the main business is strongly supervised.

    That is not to say that it could not happen again or at another brokerage.

    But for the nature of the transactions people here seem to execute, I don't believe it will make much difference.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    brucky wrote: »
    Will they still be the state media’s got to people for investment tips? Are the people involved still in the company, or have they been promoted to operate in other financial institutions?

    Please tell me you are not taking that stuff seriously....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    In other words another hair-brained consistory theory!
    consistory??? I didn't mention the church or freemasons.
    I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. Which financial institution did you work in before decamping to Switzerland?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭ dubrov


    Jim2007 wrote:
    There will always be crooks and scammers in every business, it's an accepted fact. It's why we put all the those checks and balances into the system, regulate it and supervise it. And revise the approach when it is found wanting.

    This wasn't just one rogue employee. There were loads of them involved


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    haphaphap wrote: »
    consistory??? I didn't mention the church or freemasons.
    I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. Which financial institution did you work in before decamping to Switzerland?


    None, but I have worked in the area of fraud and insolvency investigation in Ireland in the past, if that makes any difference for you.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Jim2007


    dubrov wrote: »
    This wasn't just one rogue employee. There were loads of them involved


    Yes and of course having 16 people conspire to defraud someone is concerning, but it did not happen in general business of the brokerage that people here are concerned about.


    If you wish to have a broker that was not at sometime found to be in breach of the rules or acted in an unethical way, then you are probably going to be severely challenged.


    I'm not in anyway seeking to condone these people's actions. I'm just saying for most people on here it is not a concern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭ Craig_David


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    That said you don't seem to be a regularly post here and are clearly not considering doing business with them, so what is your beef? Just a disgruntled individual wanting to stir it up or what????

    What a very weird response.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    Sorry for dwelling on this but it appears you are happy to say unkind things about the people who normally frequent the forum but share no view on the morality or lack thereof in Davy Stockbrokers. Your contribution is curious in that we know that various financial organisations played "ducks and drakes" with the regulations imposed by the Central Bank in the past but you appear to have a steadfast belief in the regulatory framework that governs companies such as the Banks and the Stockbrokers operating in Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    Jim2007 wrote: »

    ... I'm just saying for most people on here it is not a concern.

    Perhaps the question at the beginning of this thread needs to be considered from an ethical and moral perspective - rather than from a potential risk perspective?

    I think you are wrong to be making the assumption that most people here won't be concerned, Jim.

    Firstly, ethics, and how professionals conduct themselves, are more important issues for investors now, that they might have been 20-30-40 years ago.

    Secondly, while a lot of people on this site might appear to be involved in smaller vanilla type transactions, none of us really have a clue what the financial circumstances are, for the overall community that read these threads, so there may actually be quite a lot of people who are dealing with Davys, for more than just execution only services.


    For what it's worth, I've never been a fan of Davys, and always sought to deal with their competitors.

    While they aren't the only ones to draw negative press, from time to time, they seem to feature more regularly than most of their competitors, IMHO.

    Add to that, the fact that I sense a degree of arrogance from Davys, which I don't get from Goodbody, or Cantor Fitz.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭ Craig_David


    garrettod wrote: »
    Perhaps the question at the beginning of this thread needs to be considered from an ethical and moral perspective - rather than from a potential risk perspective?

    I think you are wrong to be making the assumption that most people here won't be concerned, Jim.

    Firstly, ethics, and how professionals conduct themselves, are more important issues for investors now, that they might have been 20-30-40 years ago.

    Secondly, while a lot of people on this site might appear to be involved in smaller vanilla type transactions, none of us really have a clue what the financial circumstances are, for the overall community that read these threads, so there may actually be quite a lot of people who are dealing with Davys, for more than just execution only services.


    For what it's worth, I've never been a fan of Davys, and always sought to deal with their competitors.

    While they aren't the only ones to draw negative press, from time to time, they seem to feature more regularly that most of their competitors, IMHO.

    Add to that, the fact that I sense a degree of arrogance from them, which I don't get from Goodbody, or Cantor Fitz, to give two examples.

    Some great points. Such arrogance in the letter to staff that they failed to acknowledge a conflict of interest. Says so much about the people running the show.
    I'm wondering also how this situation which Jim referred to as very specific and unlikely to effect many of the posters on this forum, would be any different to a retail client of Davy's phoning up looking for a price to offload an equity position. The dealer at the time also in the knowledge of an employee looking to buy, offering the client a price below best execution, to the benefit of the employee.
    I'm very surprised the employees can have trading accounts with the firm period.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭ tdf7187


    haphaphap wrote: »
    You are right in that I don't post here often. I hold a lot of shares in a few boring(blue chip type) companies, adding a few thousand euro each month as I go, rarely sell.

    I have no dealings with Davy but they just seem like one of those rentseekers aligned to the Establishment in Ireland who appear to not be held properly accountable
    for their actions and those two reports are just ones which came to light.

    Davys are part of the Golden Circle. This is the tip of the iceberg. While the Central Bank's action is welcome, I've reported Davys regarding matters unconnected to the recent disclosure but nothing has been done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭ JPup


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Yes and of course having 16 people conspire to defraud someone is concerning, but it did not happen in general business of the brokerage that people here are concerned about.


    If you wish to have a broker that was not at sometime found to be in breach of the rules or acted in an unethical way, then you are probably going to be severely challenged.


    I'm not in anyway seeking to condone these people's actions. I'm just saying for most people on here it is not a concern.

    The 16 included the current and former CEO, at least one other board member and several other senior partners at the firm. Collectively they own a big chunk of the company’s shares. You can’t just brush this under the carpet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    JPup wrote: »
    ... Collectively they own a big chunk of the company’s shares. You can’t just brush this under the carpet.


    Can't you ?

    It looks to be like they are trying, and the Central Bank think that they are great fellas, having issued a fine.

    Thanks,

    G.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭ HansKroenke


    garrettod wrote: »
    Can't you ?

    It looks to be like they are trying, and the Central Bank think that they are great fellas, having issued a fine.

    The Currency won't let the Davy story die.

    Naming some of the individuals involved as well as their current and past roles at Davy as well as outlining the events around the transaction;

    https://thecurrency.news/articles/38563/driven-by-money-how-the-davy-16-was-assembled-and-how-the-anglo-bonds-deal-was-pulled-off/

    https://thecurrency.news/articles/38369/davy-boss-mckiernan-personally-benefited-from-anglo-bond-deal-and-he-was-also-part-of-the-davy-committee-that-sanctioned-it/

    https://thecurrency.news/articles/38438/between-fines-settlements-and-legal-bills-the-true-cost-to-davy-of-anglo-bond-scandal-is-e15m/

    It's shocking to be honest that those involved hold senior roles still at the firm but the lack of individual reprimands by the Bank makes it look like a paper tiger. There is a storm brewing in politics and among its clients so this situation is far from resolved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭ garrettod


    Hi,

    I hope you are right - as we really need to show that we've become tough on white collar crime, and that ethics actually mean something in this county etc.

    As a brief aside, who is behind The Currency? I've seen their emails and they are quite good, but haven't gone researching them.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,833 ✭✭✭✭ neris


    Tom Lyons & Ian Kehoe. Good business journalists who follow a story and aren't afraid of upsetting anyone which is what i think they did to a certain ex radio station owner. Sam Smyth is involved with them to


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/can-davy-s-clients-stay-silent-as-board-goes-into-conclave-1.4502478

    Irish Times report.
    If I were a client of them I'd be worried. If you can't trust your own agent then you need a new agent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭ dubrov


    I can't understand why there are no criminal charges for the Davy personnel involved in the deal


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/

    3 resign. If there were 16 of them were they not all equally culpable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭ Cute Hoor


    haphaphap wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0306/1201364-davy-stockbrokers/

    3 resign. If there were 16 of them were they not all equally culpable.

    2 had certainly gone already


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭ Islander13


    I'm sure the others will go too. Probably not senior enough to be commented on publicly


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭ Islander13


    Sure probably too strong, should go


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭ JustAThought


    I thinks its shocking that they took 5 milion in property off a profoundly intellectually disabled child who was an orphan and put him 30m IN dEBT and then tried to cover their actions with a fraudelent paper trail.

    Thats shocking.

    Whatever about the ‘other’ 16 & the corruption.

    Also, How did they manage to make a private donation to Bertie Aherns bank account - I thought his defense as minister for finance was that he didn’t have one? ( I can’t remember if this was before or after he made his girlfriend a senator).

    Who appoints ‘experts’ to the central bank and to financial ombudsman positions and puts them in charge of regulatory boards again?


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