Just where does this end?

is_that_so

We all know who Amanda Gorman is and of her wonderful poem at the Biden inauguration. So popular is she that publishers in various countries want to translate and publish her forthcoming work.

In the Netherlands a publisher approached Amanda with a recommendation. That author is Marieke Lucas Rijneveld, who is a Booker prize winner, so most probably a seriously good writer. Even Amanda approved of her, as a similar young writer, but it turns out that the internet thinks she is the wrong type of writer because she is not black. As a result of the furore she's decided the most sensible thing is just to quit and allow them to find a “better” author.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-white-translator-quits-marieke-lucas-rijneveld

There are undoubtedly inequities and issues to address but somehow this seems to be giving the wrong message completely.

CtevenSrowder

The intersectional left eating the intersectional left. You'd almost feel sorry for the Dutch one not having the bollox to stick up for herself.

Akesh

I find it odd that these activists types tend to be more racist and toxic than the people they are perpetually protesting against. They will do and say anything for a bit of attention.

suicide_circus

Where does it end? In a very bad place tbh. Race relations are going backwards at a rate of knots. People are toying with ideas that will get out of hand quick.

biko

Racists like Janice Deul will try to hold people like Marieke Lucas Rijneveld down.
In a week's time it will probably be Janice Deul herself that gets the gig.

randd1

suicide_circus wrote: »

Where does it end? In a very bad place tbh. Race relations are going backwards at a rate of knots. People are toying with ideas that will get out of hand quick.

Social segregation, and racist policies, possibly a race war in the US.


I give it another two years before they have white, black, Asian and Hispanic seating areas on buses in the US. I give it three years until there's race specific bus routes. 10 years until there's race specific institutions such as hospitals/schools/universities.


And unfortunately us in Europe flowing suit, with Ireland and the UK leading the way.

biko

randd1 wrote: »

Social segregation, and racist policies, possibly a race war in the US.

US is miles ahead when it comes to this craziness.

Ireland doesn't have enough angry immigrants for it to become serious here for another 10/15 years.
Even at the height of the BLM riots in US the protests in Ireland were fortunately pretty calm affairs.

Mike Murdock

Where does it end?

If not addressed by the silent majority, either segregation or a Khmer Rouge-esque Year Zero.

kildare lad

Is that not racism ??? she's being discriminated because of her skin colour , that's racism in my book .

Hector Savage

Imagine the mental illness of that dutch one that resigned, she probably genuinely feels guilt and shame over it.

kildare lad

Hector Savage wrote: »

Imagine the mental illness of that dutch one that resigned, she probably genuinely feels guilt and shame over it.

Feel sorry for the girl . The left have no problem turning on itself

James Brown

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The intersectional left eating the intersectional left. You'd almost feel sorry for the Dutch one not having the bollox to stick up for herself.

Kinda like racists using race issues to criticise people who speak up for minorities.

TomTomTim

Hector Savage wrote: »

Imagine the mental illness of that dutch one that resigned, she probably genuinely feels guilt and shame over it.

Well she's white after all. All of her people are guilty, everyone of them, even the woke. Society can only be healed when whiteness is abolished; until then all whiteness must be rejected, resistance must be continued, and tolerance must be enforced with brutality.

FTA69

When intersectionality is so ridiculous it ends up as racist as the stuff it claims to be against.

Cultural exceptionalism is the definition of racism. If we take the “appropriation” stuff to its logical conclusion, you’re basically saying everyone has to conform to the norms of their own culture and any transgression of that is bad and negative - almost like apartheid via the back door.

Give it another few years and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re shouting about the evils of race mixing.

Larbre34

Its no different to Traveller relations in Ireland. So-called positive discrimination creates an artificial and unsustainable reality and creates resentment and a reduction in actual diversity.

Not assessing people simply on the basis of their actual talent or actual behaviour, as the case may be, and simply treating them as people, is a road to ruin.

Kivaro

James Brown wrote: »

Kinda like racists using race issues to criticise people who speak up for minorities.

Well, that didn't take long.

biko

When a translator must have the same skin colour as the original author I think we have reached about 89% wokeness.

CtevenSrowder

One thing that annoys me about it is it's almost like an imposition of American politics into the Dutch arts and by an extension Dutch society. I wonder has there been any blow back?

AndrewJRenko

I find it fascinating that the usual suspects on boards get so triggered by an incident involving a US author in Netherlands.

Do you think any of these lads would ever post about actual racist attacks happening in Netherlands?

https://nextshark.com/netherlands-korean-teen-attack-racism/

suicide_circus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I find it fascinating that the usual suspects on boards get so triggered by an incident involving a US author in Netherlands.

Do you think any of these lads would ever post about actual racist attacks happening in Netherlands?

https://nextshark.com/netherlands-korean-teen-attack-racism/

Do you think it's appropriate for a white woman to translate the poetry of a black woman?

biko

What's the problem Renko? Trying to derail another thread?
How about you start a "Asian attacked in Netherlands" thread then?

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I find it fascinating that the usual suspects on boards get so triggered by an incident involving a US author in Netherlands.

Do you think any of these lads would ever post about actual racist attacks happening in Netherlands?

https://nextshark.com/netherlands-korean-teen-attack-racism/

What's there to discuss exactly? The person who did that is a racist prick. Anything else to add to the discussion? I'm sure you can pigeonhole the far-right in somehow.

AndrewJRenko

Interesting to see the very narrow focus on one particular niche issue in Netherlands - almost as if the lads are scraping the bottom of the barrel for things to get annoyed about.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I find it fascinating that the usual suspects on boards get so triggered by an incident involving a US author in Netherlands.

Do you think any of these lads would ever post about actual racist attacks happening in Netherlands?

https://nextshark.com/netherlands-korean-teen-attack-racism/

Literal whataboutary.

When the Brazilian was attacked here the vast majority were on his side. But all unrelated to this thread topic.

On topic: It’s nonsense of course but the original writer should have been more forceful in supporting her pick.

AndrewJRenko

Poetry translation of US poets in the Netherlands has never been a priority issue for me, or for any other posters here I suspect.

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Poetry translation of US poets in the Netherlands has never been a priority issue for me, or for any other posters here I suspect.

No, me neither, but it shows the huge reach that ultra-progressive American politics can have. As someone whose fond of the arts and know people working in it, I'd like to think that such authoritarianism won't affect the arts in Ireland. I feel it will though, if it hasn't already.

biko

This was just the next natural step after woke people forced voice actors to stay within their skin colour.

Kermit.de.frog

Larbre34 wrote: »

Not assessing people simply on the basis of their actual talent or actual behaviour, as the case may be, and simply treating them as people, is a road to ruin.

Agree because soon enough you end up with less capable, more incompetent people scattered through important positions in society in roles that maybe they shouldn't have based on raw ability.

It's not a bright way forward.

AndrewJRenko

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

No, me neither, but it shows the huge reach that ultra-progressive American politics can have. As someone whose fond of the arts and know people working in it, I'd like to think that such authoritarianism won't affect the arts in Ireland. I feel it will though, if it hasn't already.

Though isn't it interesting how this is the ONLY aspect of arts development that you feel motivated enough to post about - no sign of any concern about levels of funding or quality of education or sustainability of a living wage? Nah, it's only the race issue that you get all excited about. A cynic could be forgiven for concluding that you really don't give a toss about arts at all, but you're quite happy to jump on this bandwagon.

Sorry I can't stay around for the full discussion. There's a theatre company in southern Albania getting funded for diversity initiatives that I need to get all riled up about today.

With every small incident like this, the elastic band gets stretched a tiny bit more. Either white people are going to have to eventually shout "STOP" to the constant demands, or else the white "allies" are going to be so alienated and persecuted that they will switch sides and join the "Far Right". Then there will be a completely racially divided America along racial and ideological lines. A scary prospect.

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With every small incident like this, the elastic band gets stretched a tiny bit more. Either white people are going to have to eventually shout "STOP" to the constant demands, or else the white "allies" are going to be so alienated and persecuted that they will switch sides and join the "Far Right". Then there will be a completely racially divided America along racial and ideological lines. A scary prospect.

Maybe if you had tried shouting STOP when black people were routinely being shot or choked by US police forces, perhaps you wouldn't need to be so concerned about racial division arising from poetry translation policies?

Quantum Erasure

Huh?

meeeeh

Ah come on. This story is rumbling in the media for last few days, maybe a week. Not because it's so important but because it's bonkers.

There is another story about Megan Three Stallion Harper Bazaar cover which was styled by black stylist.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/2021/feb/22/harpers-bazaar-megan-thee-stallion-cover

This kind of stuff is a proof that Twitter makes people stupid. It's not about white vs black it's about morons getting disproportionate amount of attention.

biko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe if you had tried shouting STOP when black people were routinely being shot or choked by US police forces, perhaps you wouldn't need to be so concerned about racial division arising from poetry translation policies?

How is it even possible to draw a line from police violence to forcing translators to have the same skin colour (only when black of course) as an author?

Invidious

Barack Obama's memoir A Promised Land was translated into Dutch by Rebekka W. R. Bremmer, Bep Fontijn, Frans Reusink and Edzard Krol. Surprise, surprise ... none of these translators is black, either. And I doubt that either President Obama or any readers of his book actually cared.

AndrewJRenko

biko wrote: »

How is it even possible to draw a line from police violence to forcing translators to have the same skin colour (only when black of course) as an author?

You didn't feel the need to question how it was possible to draw a line from poetry translation in Netherlands to " the white "allies" are going to be so alienated and persecuted "?

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry I can't stay around for the full discussion. There's a theatre company in southern Albania getting funded for diversity initiatives that I need to get all riled up about today.

Ok have fun.

AndrewJRenko

meeeeh wrote: »

Ah come on. This story is rumbling in the media for last few days, maybe a week. Not because it's so important but because it's bonkers.

.

The only place I come across these issues is from the usual triggered suspects on Boards getting all riled up about topics they never had any interest in before.

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The only place I come across these issues is from the usual triggered suspects on Boards getting all riled up about topics they never had any interest in before.

Whose 'riled up'? It's more of a rolling of the eyes. Do you think it's OK for someone to be pressured into standing down for a particular role based solely on their skin colour?

The people doing the pressuring are racists, and as it's not the violent type of racism such as you posted earlier, and because it's direcylted at a certain skin colour, it largely gets a free pass. Racism is racism and in my opinion should always be challenged, regardless of what form it comes in.

WrenBoy

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The only place I come across these issues is from the usual triggered suspects on Boards getting all riled up about topics they never had any interest in before.

Im not making an argument or anything here, I genuinely don't fully get what your objection is. You feel its unfair for people to talk about an event or story if they haven't been talked about or has interaction with the subjects involved, before the events took place ?

meeeeh

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The only place I come across these issues is from the usual triggered suspects on Boards getting all riled up about topics they never had any interest in before.

Maybe stick to something else for your news but Boards or Twitter. Both The Times and Guardian covered it in UK media.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-white-translator-quits-marieke-lucas-rijneveld

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-wont-translate-amanda-gormans-work-insists-white-author-0xzsdfmtn

CtevenSrowder

meeeeh wrote: »

Maybe stick to something else for your news but Board or Twitter. Both The Times and Guardian covered it in UK media.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/01/amanda-gorman-white-translator-quits-marieke-lucas-rijneveld

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-wont-translate-amanda-gormans-work-insists-white-author-0xzsdfmtn

Indeed, the Guardian is were I first came across it aswell.

Invidious

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The only place I come across these issues is from the usual triggered suspects on Boards getting all riled up about topics they never had any interest in before.

Well, let's see -- the Guardian, the Independent, the Times, the Associated Press and multiple international newspapers have all covered the story.

Maybe you need to read more broadly?

AndrewJRenko

WrenBoy wrote: »

Im not making an argument or anything here, I genuinely don't fully get what your objection is. You feel its unfair for people to talk about an event or story if they haven't been talked about or has interaction with the subjects involved, before the events took place ?

I didn't say that it is unfair.

I did say that it is a good indication that the people really aren't that bothered about poetry translation protocols in the Netherlands.

AndrewJRenko

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Whose 'riled up'?

Most of the posters on this thread.

Invidious

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I did say that it is a good indication that the people really aren't that bothered about poetry translation protocols in the Netherlands.

People are bothered that an International Booker Prize–winning author was pressured to step down from a high-profile translation assignment because their skin was the wrong colour.

You'd like to pretend that this is all about "poetry translation protocols" when it's really about racial discrimination.

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Most of the posters on this thread.

Oh I didn't know you yourself were riled up. I'm perfectly calm. I simply think it's a bit ridiculous tis all.

FTA69

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The only place I come across these issues is from the usual triggered suspects on Boards getting all riled up about topics they never had any interest in before.

Yeah it’s all well and good dismissing this as mindless twitter noise but it isn’t. That’s just a fact. A lot of this stuff is pumped out via prominent media sources. Even left wing academics are now pointing out a stifling of freedom of expression and hounding of staff on spurious grounds, many large corporations now push things like critical race theory and privilege theory in mandatory training sessions. Here in England we had a Labour shadow minister arguing for this stuff to be put on the curriculum thus making the party look like muppets when a black Tory minister rubbished the idea.

Your points about the horrible grinding racism in the USA and other places aren’t wrong, but acknowledging that doesn’t mean we have to embrace this other nonsense either. Pretending that swathes of the liberal left have hamstrung themselves with this crap helps nobody.

CtevenSrowder

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah it’s all well and good dismissing this as mindless twitter noise but it isn’t. That’s just a fact. A lot of this stuff is pumped out via prominent media sources. Even left wing academics are now pointing out a stifling of freedom of expression and hounding of staff on spurious grounds, many large corporations now push things like critical race theory and privilege theory in mandatory training sessions. Here in England we had a Labour shadow minister arguing for this stuff to be put on the curriculum thus making the party look like muppets when a black Tory minister rubbished the idea.

Your points about the horrible grinding racism in the USA and other places aren’t wrong, but acknowledging that doesn’t mean we have to embrace this other nonsense either. Pretending that swathes of the liberal left have hamstrung themselves with this crap helps nobody.

Tis all a bit strange, the last time Ireland had this sort of stuff eminent in it's society it could be argued that those that were left-wing were the ones to mostly fall foul of it. The most prominent example being the disgraceful decision by RTE to not have SF politicians appear on the station. We should know better, and I hope, as a result of how things were up to even 30 years ago, we don't properly import this ****e from America (of the left or right kind).

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe if you had tried shouting STOP when black people were routinely being shot or choked by US police forces, perhaps you wouldn't need to be so concerned about racial division arising from poetry translation policies?

I don't see the connection - can you elaborate?

Also - you need to look up the definition of the word "routinely".

AndrewJRenko

Invidious wrote: »

Well, let's see -- the Guardian, the Independent, the Times, the Associated Press and multiple international newspapers have all covered the story.

Maybe you need to read more broadly?

Isn't it amazing though out of all of the things happening in the world reported in all those newspapers, this is the issue deemed worthy of its own thread on Boards?