Covid & Irish Politics

VinLieger

So after getting fed up with the Covid specific forums i checked with the mods here to see if it would be okay to start a thread specifically related to Covid's impact on Irish politics.

Basically i'm curious to see what peoples opinions are in this forum on how government are handling things from a political perspective as well as how people think the political landscape will be changed going forward, ie the next General Election.

This thread should be specifically for discussing the politics around Covid, so not the latest infection or vaccine numbers or why you dont think its that bad because survival rates are.... etc etc.


Ill start with a few thoughts ive had recently.


Like many others i'm quite fed up with the governments mismanagement of communications since October but very specifically in the last 2 months. I'm of the opinion we should have a maximum of 2 members of Government commenting on Covid in any capacity at all and that is the Taoiseach and Minister for Health whoever they may be at the time. I don't think any members of NPHET should be speaking directly to the media, and neither should any cabinet members or other government backbenchers be talking about it either.

For anyone who's watched the West Wing as much as I have there's been a quote from S7E12 rattling around in my head since this all began back in March, where Will Bailey is giving out about another government staffer talking to the press.

"You're being transferred. You no longer speak for this government."
"For telling people the truth?"
"For telling people something which can only cause further panic. It doesn't matter if it's true. It doesn't matter if I've already said it. We're trying to prevent mass hysteria in a climate in which even the truth can be misinterpreted, so we speak with one voice. You're lucky you still have a job."

I think MM is failing seriously at competently leading the country right now for several reasons. Very specifically though the communications issues which in my opinion have been highlighted glaringly this week.

Neither FG or Leo are innocent in all this either. In my opinion they have lost all credit they gained during the first lockdown with the constant one ups manship they are constantly trying against FF in a time when in their own words we are all meant to be in it together.

Personally im not sure if i will be able to bring myself to vote for any of the 3 major parties in the next election but I also cannot see how SF don't run away with a majority right now.

Would be really interested in reading what others have to say on all this and everything else political Covid is inevitably going to affect at some point down the road.

Roanmore

VinLieger wrote: »

So after getting fed up with the Covid specific forums i checked with the mods here to see if it would be okay to start a thread specifically related to Covid's impact on Irish politics.

Basically i'm curious to see what peoples opinions are in this forum on how government are handling things from a political perspective as well as how people think the political landscape will be changed going forward, ie the next General Election.

This thread should be specifically for discussing the politics around Covid, so not the latest infection or vaccine numbers or why you dont think its that bad because survival rates are.... etc etc.


Ill start with a few thoughts ive had recently.


Like many others i'm quite fed up with the governments mismanagement of communications since October but very specifically in the last 2 months. I'm of the opinion we should have a maximum of 2 members of Government commenting on Covid in any capacity at all and that is the Taoiseach and Minister for Health whoever they may be at the time. I don't think any members of NPHET should be speaking directly to the media, and neither should any cabinet members or other government backbenchers be talking about it either.

For anyone who's watched the West Wing as much as I have there's been a quote from S7E12 rattling around in my head since this all began back in March, where Will Bailey is giving out about another government staffer talking to the press.



I think MM is failing seriously at competently leading the country right now for several reasons. Very specifically though the communications issues which in my opinion have been highlighted glaringly this week.

Neither FG or Leo are innocent in all this either. In my opinion they have lost all credit they gained during the first lockdown with the constant one ups manship they are constantly trying against FF in a time when in their own words we are all meant to be in it together.

Personally im not sure if i will be able to bring myself to vote for any of the 3 major parties in the next election but I also cannot see how SF don't run away with a majority right now.

Would be really interested in reading what others have to say on all this and everything else political Covid is inevitably going to affect at some point down the road.

Michael Martin is a safety first guy, actually scratch that, ultra safe. Whenever he was a minster it was report after report, review after review, committee after committee. He'd nearly need a report and a review to see what shoes to put on in the morning and by the time he decided it would be time to go to bed.

As you said Leo is just as bad, I thought he got things just right in the original wave and thought there was a case for him staying on as Taoiseach but he has just become so smug and the quips which he thinks are funny are rubbing people up the wrong way.

Add in to the mix Donnelly and Foley, is this the best we have?
Jeez I'd even have Barry Cowen back, at least you get a straight answer.

Not a Green voter and never will be since Gormley's tears at Bertie leaving but I'd have Eamonn Ryan over the other 2

bogman

Under the lifting of travel restrictions on April 12th will we be on level 4 or level 5 lockdown?

Brussels Sprout

VinLieger wrote: »

Would be really interested in reading what others have to say on all this and everything else political Covid is inevitably going to affect at some point down the road.

I keep an eye on the Irish far-right on Twitter and they've really embraced anti-mask, anti-lockdown and in many cases anti-vaccine rhetoric as well as their usual greatest hits (anti-immigrant, anti-EU, anti-SF, pro-Trump, George Soros conspiracy theories, Q-Anon, etc etc).

There are a lot of people whose jobs or businesses disappeared. They are angry and they have a lot more time on their hands to spend on social media. What I have noticed is a growing number of accounts that previously would have been regular people tweeting about normal things who are now almost exclusively tweeting anti-lockdown, anti-mask, anti-vacc stuff. They are also following some of the more malignant far-right accounts.

The far-right have traditionally struggled to gain a foothold in Ireland. The 3 far-right parties along with all the far-right independents did woefully in the Feb 2020 election. I think Covid has created a possible conveyor belt for them to gain traction. A certain percentage of people are going to adopt some of the other topics beyond Covid that the far-right accounts that they follow are filling their timelines with.

After this Pandemic is finally over I find it difficult to believe that those people are going to go back to the way that they were pre-Pandemic. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube as it were.

Good loser

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I keep an eye on the Irish far-right on Twitter and they've really embraced anti-mask, anti-lockdown and in many cases anti-vaccine rhetoric as well as their usual greatest hits (anti-immigrant, anti-EU, anti-SF, pro-Trump, George Soros conspiracy theories, Q-Anon, etc etc).

There are a lot of people whose jobs or businesses disappeared. They are angry and they have a lot more time on their hands to spend on social media. What I have noticed is a growing number of accounts that previously would have been regular people tweeting about normal things who are now almost exclusively tweeting anti-lockdown, anti-mask, anti-vacc stuff. They are also following some of the more malignant far-right accounts.

The far-right have traditionally struggled to gain a foothold in Ireland. The 3 far-right parties along with all the far-right independents did woefully in the Feb 2020 election. I think Covid has created a possible conveyor belt for them to gain traction. A certain percentage of people are going to adopt some of the other topics beyond Covid that the far-right accounts that they follow are filling their timelines with.

After this Pandemic is finally over I find it difficult to believe that those people are going to go back to the way that they were pre-Pandemic. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube as it were.

If you consider FF, FG and Labour to be 'far-right' parties I must regard your political judgement to be seriously awry.

Geuze

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I
The far-right have traditionally struggled to gain a foothold in Ireland. The 3 far-right parties along with all the far-right independents did woefully in the Feb 2020 election.

(Off-topic?)

Yes, correct, there aren't any far-right TDs.

I can't even name these three parties you refer to, that's how weak they are.

I am curious though, are there any far-right cllrs?

As there are approx. 13 far-left TDs, I presume there are dozens of far-left cllrs?

But are there any far-right cllrs?

beggars_bush

I think left v right is a debate for another tlpic

As for Covid, the government balls it up last summer when numbers were very low and they didn't aim to reduce risks of new strains coming into country through quarantine at home for irish citizens (and enforcing it) and mandatory hotel quarantine for non residents entering the country

I wouldn't have much faith in any of them as they seem to be very wary of actually making a decision
You'd have to say that the vaccine companies have made things very difficult for them.
As well as the behaviours of certain minorities

Would the opposition have done any better? Doubtful

tjhook

Mistakes have been made and continue to be made at all levels - at political policy level and at department/implementation level. I get frustrated at it sometimes. But I'm not terribly surprised, given the scale of the challenge. It's not something anybody living has had to deal with before.

I wouldn't be overly critical of any of the political parties that have had power since the start of this. It's easy to look back and point to what should have been done differently. I'd say the same of the opposition parties too - I'd assume that if they'd been in power, mistakes would also have been made, but they'd also have done their best.

I see this whole Covid issue being above politics. Or maybe below politics, I'm not sure. If I have a single criticism, it's at the countries that adopt a "mé-féin" attitude to vaccines. For all the EU's failings in the area, at least the powerful countries brought the weaker countries along with them. Countries like Germany could have gone it alone and left everybody else behind if they'd wanted.

Brussels Sprout

Good loser wrote: »

If you consider FF, FG and Labour to be 'far-right' parties I must regard your political judgement to be seriously awry.

I presume this is some kind of joke about their less than stellar election result because, no of course I do not consider any of them to be far-right.

Geuze wrote: »

(Off-topic?)

Yes, correct, there aren't any far-right TDs.

I can't even name these three parties you refer to, that's how weak they are.

I am curious though, are there any far-right cllrs?

Based on their platforms and the fact that they were registered as actual parties I'm classifying the National Party, the Irish Freedom Party and Renua (who took a turn for the far-right after John Leahy stepped down as leader) as Far Right. A few candidates ran under the ACI banner but that wasn't a registered party.

Those parties don't have any elected councillors. Paddy Holohan tweeted out yesterday that he was going to join the Irish Freedom party but I think it was an April Fool's joke (he deleted the tweet).

Are there any independent councillors with far-right views? Quite possibly but I don't think any of them got elected primarily based on them.

Geuze wrote: »

As there are approx. 13 far-left TDs, I presume there are dozens of far-left cllrs?

I'm not sure how you arrived at that figure. There are 5 from Solidarity-PBP who could probably be classified as such. Throw in Joan Collins (I4C) to make 6. After that you're into independents and I don't think any of them could be considered far-left. Maybe you could say Thomas Pringle and at a stretch you could throw in Catherine Connolly but that would still leave you 5 short of 13.

breezy1985

Geuze wrote: »

(Off-topic?)

Yes, correct, there aren't any far-right TDs.

I can't even name these three parties you refer to, that's how weak they are.

I am curious though, are there any far-right cllrs?

As there are approx. 13 far-left TDs, I presume there are dozens of far-left cllrs?

But are there any far-right cllrs?

Are you counting the Greens or Social Democrats as far left ?

I would say the SD are more centre left than Labour and there is nothing left wing about the Greens

Geuze

Maybe I'm wrong with the 13 figure.

I do not count the Greens/Lab/SocDems as far left.

I have the figure of 13 in my head, for some reason.

PBP/AAA/Solidarity/Rise, etc.

I must check again.

beggars_bush

Rise? Aren't they gone?

L1011

I believe, in theory, they are a member group of PBP along with the Socialist Workers Party and whatever other one-man-and-his-megaphone groups make it the PBP "Alliance". But to all intents and purposes they're gone and merged with the SWP.

There might be 13 far left *councillors*, as they all had an appalling 2019 LE, along with SF who will have trouble actually getting much local traction with nobody to back up many TDs in that regard.

Harry Palmr

Back on topic. This current iteration of government has been probably the most inept and unsteady that I can recall since the early 80s. Literally every big moment has been botched. As mention above they wasted last summer reprieve instead of preparing for the near certainty of that 2nd wave. Then they created the third singled handed by seeking to appease sectional interests. The massive fallout has scared them so much they really don't know what to do or how to do it.

Quarantine, walk in testing etc all far too late to be genuinely useful. Still no daily test for school children or staff. Anything that requires serious application of planning & effort is avoided.

They out sourced the control and suppression of a virus to the public as we are cheap and plentiful, the PUP pot is infinite as far as they are concerned because in the end we'll be paying for it. And it'll be a different government post Martin and maybe Varadkar that gets any blowback if taxes rise.

Brussels Sprout

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Back on topic. This current iteration of government has been probably the most inept and unsteady that I can recall since the early 80s. Literally every big moment has been botched. As mention above they wasted last summer reprieve instead of preparing for the near certainty of that 2nd wave.....

Given the marriage of 3 parties, 2 of whom have historically despised each other and the third that has a reputation for flakiness I think the government has been remarkably steady. As for the most inept....The government of 2007-2011 would like a word.

Governing during a novel virus pandemic is a ridiculously hard task. You are being bombarded with new information and there's a balance to be struck between keeping as many people as safe as possible while at the same time trying to ensure that peopel don't lose hope in perpetual lockdown and businesses are not shut for so long that they never open again.

No matter what decision you take the sounds of the people who oppose it will be amplified while they people who agree with it tend not to be heard as much. This results in a phenomenon where it seems that every single decision made was the wrong one.

In many cases the correct course of action will only be known in retrospect and often never at all.

If you look around the world, not many democratic governments will come out of this looking good.

When we look back at this in 10 years time the decision to open up at Christmas will be seen as the biggest blunder but beyond that I don't think that anything else will stand out as particularly egregious, especially in comparison to our peers.

I would be much more concerned about the politicians who believe in this zero covid fantasy land. People can rant and rave all they like about hotel quarantine but unless the border between North and South is shut there’s absolutely no point.
As for the FF/FG/G coalition I think it’s an absolute disaster. FF and FG hate each other and Leo is doing his utmost to make sure MM looks like a fool - and it’s working. There’s no consistency between them. As for the Greens, going into coalition was virtue signalling of the highest order. A sort of “we better get the green vote too so people think we care about the environment” job. A now fractured party with a useless leader and TDs with no teeth. Barely a mention of covid from any of them.
If everyone is vaccinated this year, I can see a GE happening. MM and maybe even FF are finished. FG are the second highest rated party so we could go back to FG majority.
SF talk a big game but I genuinely don’t think they would be any better.

meeeeh

It's not just Irish government that is struggling in Europe. Yes communication is a problem but the message at the moment would not be popular anyway. Government in first wave was lucky that UK was complete mess, this time they are doing better.

Anyway I believe SF will come into power next election. It will be fun because they will have to pay the bill for the pandemic. I predict Siriza or 5 star like trajectory...

View

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not just Irish government that is struggling in Europe. Yes communication is a problem but the message at the moment would not be popular anyway. Government in first wave was lucky that UK was complete mess, this time they are doing better.

Anyway I believe SF will come into power next election. It will be fun because they will have to pay the bill for the pandemic. I predict Siriza or 5 star like trajectory...

... and US multinationals heading for a quick exit as they are not going to hang around in a country run by a hard left government (“hard left” just being the euphemism now used by such parties since the phrase “communist” went out of fashion circa 1990).

growleaves

I think in the longer term the large deficits being run up will lead to an SF government and a demand for social spending. Not necessarily in the next election but perhaps.

Most people do not make a connection between debt servicing with its deflationary drag on income and the decline in the standard of living because it happens so gradually.

Instead people see that they are getting poorer, don't understand why and want a solution.

So I am predicting an intensification of the trend that was already in play from 2008 to February 2020.

breezy1985

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not just Irish government that is struggling in Europe. Yes communication is a problem but the message at the moment would not be popular anyway. Government in first wave was lucky that UK was complete mess, this time they are doing better.

Anyway I believe SF will come into power next election. It will be fun because they will have to pay the bill for the pandemic. I predict Siriza or 5 star like trajectory...

Whatever about Syriza who were just unable to fix what was an insurmountable mess 5 Star didn't really have any policy and that became clear as soon as they entered government. That catch all please everyone politics was so easy to co-opt for the right. Can definitely see a bit of Sinn Fein in that where there are so many competing groups between NI conservative republicans, ROI left wing, a centre left core of TDs and the apolitical flag waving "uh a up the ra" southern voter

meeeeh

breezy1985 wrote: »

Whatever about Syriza who were just unable to fix what was an insurmountable mess 5 Star didn't really have any policy and that became clear as soon as they entered government. That catch all please everyone politics was so easy to co-opt for the right. Can definitely see a bit of Sinn Fein in that where there are so many competing groups between NI conservative republicans, ROI left wing, a centre left core of TDs and the apolitical flag waving "uh a up the ra" southern voter

Oh I agree but my point was more that people project whatever they want on to SF at the moment because they were never in power. Once they get there they will be a disappointment for a large cohort of their voters. Same goes for SD who are more like Greens and they will also shed some td's when they get in power because their politics suddenly won't be pure enough.

Out of government parties FF will suffer because they have very few competent td's and Green Party has too many idealistic members and tds.

tjhook

tjhook wrote: »

Mistakes have been made and continue to be made at all levels - at political policy level and at department/implementation level. I get frustrated at it sometimes. But I'm not terribly surprised, given the scale of the challenge. It's not something anybody living has had to deal with before.

I wouldn't be overly critical of any of the political parties that have had power since the start of this. It's easy to look back and point to what should have been done differently. I'd say the same of the opposition parties too - I'd assume that if they'd been in power, mistakes would also have been made, but they'd also have done their best.

I see this whole Covid issue being above politics. Or maybe below politics, I'm not sure. If I have a single criticism, it's at the countries that adopt a "mé-féin" attitude to vaccines. For all the EU's failings in the area, at least the powerful countries brought the weaker countries along with them. Countries like Germany could have gone it alone and left everybody else behind if they'd wanted.

When this first kicked off, testing and contact tracing was a disaster, but they can be forgiven because it was unprecendented. The fact that it then failed later in the year is unforgiveable.

They made a complete hash of predicted grades last year, but got away with it because for some reason people were more fixated on the much smaller and quicker resolved mess across the Irish sea. But, to an extent you can forgive them for that, because it was unprecedented.

This year, despite having had the ability to learn from their mistakes, they made a complete balls of the leaving cert and heaped a ridiculous amount of stress on those taking it. They should be absolutely vilified for this because they had plenty of time to plan, but they didn't.

As for the "mé-féin" attitude to vaccines, we have a health service that employs 125,000 people and yet have managed to vaccinate the 235,000 that work on the front line. This is banana republic levels of corruption/incompetency/nepotism but, nothing will come of it, because at the end of the day and one thing this pandemic has really highlighted, is that the government do not run this country, it is run by cabals of self interest groups, such as the HSE and teaching unions

Sam Russell

Aegir wrote: »

As for the "mé-féin" attitude to vaccines, we have a health service that employs 125,000 people and yet have managed to vaccinate the 235,000 that work on the front line. This is banana republic levels of corruption/incompetency/nepotism but, nothing will come of it, because at the end of the day and one thing this pandemic has really highlighted, is that the government do not run this country, it is run by cabals of self interest groups, such as the HSE and teaching unions

The teachers unions conferences have voted to have ballot to strike if they do not get a reversal of them no longer being in the early recipients of the Covid vaccine.

Well, in seven weeks the secondary teachers will be on holiday, so will not be front facing workers so will not be prioritised, and any strike will be in the next academic year by which time everyone should be fully vaccinated. Even if they were prioritised, they would not be vaccinated until after they start their holidays.

I think they should go back to school and educate themselves a bit more.

breezy1985

Sam Russell wrote: »

The teachers unions conferences have voted to have ballot to strike if they do not get a reversal of them no longer being in the early recipients of the Covid vaccine.

Well, in seven weeks the secondary teachers will be on holiday, so will not be front facing workers so will not be prioritised, and any strike will be in the next academic year by which time everyone should be fully vaccinated. Even if they were prioritised, they would not be vaccinated until after they start their holidays.

I think they should go back to school and educate themselves a bit more.

It's not about immunisation it's about jealousy because almost everyone is out praising the HSE staff and the Gardai but no one is telling them how special they are.

Funny I don't see the teachers or anyone in the news going on every day about the fact that the shop workers haven't been prioritized and they have been working all through the pandemic

After all his talk of things getting back to normal for those fully vaccinated, they just want to get in on the act.

It’s a stupid thing for the government and NPHET to propose, but why wouldn’t they, they’re alright Jack.

Sam Russell

breezy1985 wrote: »

It's not about immunisation it's about jealousy because almost everyone is out praising the HSE staff and the Gardai but no one is telling them how special they are.

Funny I don't see the teachers or anyone in the news going on every day about the fact that the shop workers haven't been prioritized and they have been working all through the pandemic

There are 14,000 Gardai and 100,000 teachers.

The Gardai could be done in a days worth of vaccinations and anyway are ideal as standby patients, as they are very mobile and are spread all over the country. Plus of course they are more likely to come into contact with people doing unnecessary journeys - the super spreaders.

100,000 teachers - not nearly as mobile and nearly ten times as many. I doubt they could act as a standby list for spare vaccines. No I think they should wait their turn based on age.

James Brown

Was talk about the President making a kind of Queen's speech to address the nation re Covid and the state of play re vaccines. Idea being he's no political skin in the game and might reassure the public.
I think it's a good idea.

Sam Russell

James Brown wrote: »

Was talk about the President making a kind of Queen's speech to address the nation re Covid and the state of play re vaccines. Idea being he's no political skin in the game and might reassure the public.
I think it's a good idea.

He is also very popular as a person.

VinLieger

If the coming lifting of restrictions actually continue as planned as well as the vaccinations and we don't get hit the albeit still low possibility of a 4th spike what kind of bounce do people predict will come from this for the Government if any at all?


Personally i think FG are still well cushioned from the negativity of the lockdowns vs FF who definitely are the face of them since October. What im not sure about though is if that cushioning also goes the other way and any bounce from opening will go in the majority towards FF.

breezy1985

VinLieger wrote: »

If the coming lifting of restrictions actually continue as planned as well as the vaccinations and we don't get hit the albeit still low possibility of a 4th spike what kind of bounce do people predict will come from this for the Government if any at all?


Personally i think FG are still well cushioned from the negativity of the lockdowns vs FF who definitely are the face of them since October. What im not sure about though is if that cushioning also goes the other way and any bounce from opening will go in the majority towards FF.

FF seem unable to get any big name TDs out into the public other than Donnelly who I don't think is that popular. Maybe I am wrong but the public perception still seems to be that this is an FG government

beggars_bush

FF were silly to take the health portfolio.
FG seem to get a much easier ride from social media and journalists

breezy1985

beggars_bush wrote: »

FF were silly to take the health portfolio.
FG seem to get a much easier ride from social media and journalists

FF can't be complaining about easy rides from journalists. They had a fair amount of apologists over the years too.

With the current politicians I think it's just down to smelling blood from the journalists as Martin and Donnelly seem much easier to rattle or flap about in interviews

is_that_so

beggars_bush wrote: »

FF were silly to take the health portfolio.
FG seem to get a much easier ride from social media and journalists

It was probably a quid pro quo approach. FF & Donnelly wanted it and to an extent running the DoH is a lot easier in a pandemic than dealing with the daily questions about the HSE and health system. Donnelly is really not an overwhelming success but if Reid does turn the HSE around the Minister will get the praise. There will be a reshuffling of seats at the end of next year if they make it that far.

VinLieger

Not discussing what happened over the weekend because thats for the covid form but if they government actually went through with this i believe we would see scenes of mass civil disobedience and they would lose their mandate to govern. I think its incredibly dangerous and stupid to make a threat like this that you realistically cannot follow through on.


https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1399251561575026688?s=19

Captain_Crash

VinLieger wrote: »

Not discussing what happened over the weekend because thats for the covid form but if they government actually went through with this i believe we would see scenes of mass civil disobedience and they would lose their mandate to govern. I think its incredibly dangerous and stupid to make a threat like this that you realistically cannot follow through on.


https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1399251561575026688?s=19

A problem I foresee would be that the emergency powers granted by the health act are in respect to a health emergency! Another lockdown implemented as a punishment is absolutely not what those powers allow. Would it bring down government? Maybe!

pixelburp

It's the mixed messages that must surely be frustrating those trying their best. Or indeed those at the end of their tether. The authorities pedestrianised parts of the city centre for the explicit purpose of facilitating outdoor socialising - then publicly shamed people for taking advantage of those blatant signals to mingle. Fair to speculate many out over the weekend don't have back gardens to facilitate casual meets.

Ok, technically the Gards were merely applying the law against drinking in public but it's clear enough from the government's comments afterwards, this was more about wrapping knuckles that people might have dared to relax. To then dangle a Sword of Damocles of restrictions restored is just cruel and IMO, truly failing to read the room. It may come back to haunt the government.

Anti government sentiment is clearly increasing based on recent polls and you'd wonder if this discontent will manifest at the ballot box. SF are unlikely to vocalise support for flouting CoVid guidelines but you'd imagine internally they're ready to make hay once the sun shines, quick to remind how muddled Martin ran things.

Sam Russell

I think the mistake the Gov have made since last Summer is to be too prescriptive.

They should have put out the message that it is up to the public - that is each individual - to be mindful of the risks and act accordingly and rely on personal responsibility. That is, if your destination is too crowded then either look for somewhere else or go home.

It was a mistake to close the hairdressers because hair continues to grow and hairdressers deal with it - and closed hairdressers results in a black economy of home visit hairdressers. Which is worse - a controlled hair salon or a black economy hairdresser making home visits?

It was a mistake not to control off-licence alcohol sales - particularly below cost selling. Where are the cheap pints to be consumed? Also, take away pints? Who is kidding who?

It was a mistake to allow pubs to pretend to be restaurants. Restaurants should have been defined as those establishments that did not sell draught alcohol, and that food had to be more than 50% of the bill. It has been seen that alcohol is a massive vector in the spreading of the virus.

But being too prescriptive was the biggest mistake. They should have relied on peoples own responsibility. Those that do not have any do not do as they should anyway. Having a church that can hold 1,000 strong congregation only allowed to have six mourners at a funeral was ridiculous, and that undermines the sensible restrictions.

The message should have been -

'This is a horrible disease that is extremely contagious - you do not want to catch it - and you will not know you have it until it is too late.

If you get it, you will likely infect a lot of you relatives and friends, and some will be very ill and some will die.

Treat your self as a carrier and everyone else as a carrier. Wash your hands, wear a mask, and keep your distance.

Stay away from crowds - you can always go home.'

Saying you can do this but not that does not cut it.

Meaningful Christmas - my ****!

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was a mistake to allow pubs to pretend to be restaurants. Restaurants should have been defined as those establishments that did not sell draught alcohol, and that food had to be more than 50% of the bill. It has been seen that alcohol is a massive vector in the spreading of the virus.

Plenty of restaurants have draught beer taps; and as there are some limited advantages to pubs having a restaurant certificate - the only legal definition we have - the genie was out of the bottle on that one as plenty already had them.

Food being >50% of the bill would ruin some premium restaurants where they make their profit on the wine too.

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Plenty of restaurants have draught beer taps; and as there are some limited advantages to pubs having a restaurant certificate - the only legal definition we have - the genie was out of the bottle on that one as plenty already had them.

Food being >50% of the bill would ruin some premium restaurants where they make their profit on the wine too.

Your points are valid, but so is the point of some pubs providing empty pizza boxes and fake receipts for a €9 meal.

The daft beer taps is a simple test as to whether the drink sales are the business or whether the sale of food is. Other tests could be arrived at with a little research. The 50% ratio could be varied, like having a minimum food value or maximum amount of alcohol on the bill.

I am against being prescriptive, but the pub issue was abused bigtime - as was supermarkets selling alcohol (slabs) below cost.

L1011

Its absolutely the norm for an Indian restaurant to have a draft lager tap even though their business is solidly based on selling food and they don't make much off alcohol at all. I don't think there is any test you can define that wouldn't either close some restaurants or open many pubs.

Michael Martin removed the ban on below-cost selling when he was the relevant Minister quite some time ago.

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Its absolutely the norm for an Indian restaurant to have a draft lager tap even though their business is solidly based on selling food and they don't make much off alcohol at all. I don't think there is any test you can define that wouldn't either close some restaurants or open many pubs.

Michael Martin removed the ban on below-cost selling when he was the relevant Minister quite some time ago.

As I say, it is difficult to devise a system, but tying up the draft lager taps to stay open is hardly a hardship compared to locking the front door. The empty pizza boxes on the tables so that the real business of selling pints could continue was a disgrace. As for 'take away pints' - well . . . .

blanch152

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the mistake the Gov have made since last Summer is to be too prescriptive.

They should have put out the message that it is up to the public - that is each individual - to be mindful of the risks and act accordingly and rely on personal responsibility. That is, if your destination is too crowded then either look for somewhere else or go home.

It was a mistake to close the hairdressers because hair continues to grow and hairdressers deal with it - and closed hairdressers results in a black economy of home visit hairdressers. Which is worse - a controlled hair salon or a black economy hairdresser making home visits?

It was a mistake not to control off-licence alcohol sales - particularly below cost selling. Where are the cheap pints to be consumed? Also, take away pints? Who is kidding who?

It was a mistake to allow pubs to pretend to be restaurants. Restaurants should have been defined as those establishments that did not sell draught alcohol, and that food had to be more than 50% of the bill. It has been seen that alcohol is a massive vector in the spreading of the virus.

But being too prescriptive was the biggest mistake. They should have relied on peoples own responsibility. Those that do not have any do not do as they should anyway. Having a church that can hold 1,000 strong congregation only allowed to have six mourners at a funeral was ridiculous, and that undermines the sensible restrictions.

The message should have been -

'This is a horrible disease that is extremely contagious - you do not want to catch it - and you will not know you have it until it is too late.

If you get it, you will likely infect a lot of you relatives and friends, and some will be very ill and some will die.

Treat your self as a carrier and everyone else as a carrier. Wash your hands, wear a mask, and keep your distance.

Stay away from crowds - you can always go home.'

Saying you can do this but not that does not cut it.

Meaningful Christmas - my ****!

You make a very good point about the government being too prescriptive, but you then destroy it by introducing your own different prescriptions.

Ultimately, that shows up how difficult the current situation is. The Swedes adopted that common sense approach, personal responsibility, with limited restrictions, and ended up with far more per capita deaths.

Our culture does not lend itself to personal responsibility - take a look at the litter problem in Dublin City Centre last weekend. If people don't have enough personal responsibility to take their own litter home, respecting the rules, they won't do the same with Covid.

Sam Russell

blanch152 wrote: »

You make a very good point about the government being too prescriptive, but you then destroy it by introducing your own different prescriptions.

Ultimately, that shows up how difficult the current situation is. The Swedes adopted that common sense approach, personal responsibility, with limited restrictions, and ended up with far more per capita deaths.

Our culture does not lend itself to personal responsibility - take a look at the litter problem in Dublin City Centre last weekend. If people don't have enough personal responsibility to take their own litter home, respecting the rules, they won't do the same with Covid.

Well, yes - being against prescription but the proposing some prescriptive rules does appear to go against me.

However, the rules I was suggesting are less prescription as more definition.

When is a pub that sells food a restaurant? Well, it is not sufficient to say that it is a restaurant if it sells a bag of crisps for €9 or it buys in a take away pizza from next door and say that it sells food, or worse, it pretends to buy a pizza and proves it by leaving the empty box on the table in the middle of the empty pint glasses.

Now, drawing up a 50 page book of rules was never going to work, and it didn't. The correct approach was to have clear rules that were simple and easy to follow, and to make them obviously well founded. The nonsense of using counties as the unit of travel where someone who lived in Ballinasloe could travel to Clifden but not Athlone must have been obvious to all.

Make it simple, and obviously well founded, and enforce it.

Test, track and trace should have been the major plank of the defence against Covid. When did the pop-up testing centres start up?

PeadarCo

Captain_Crash wrote: »

A problem I foresee would be that the emergency powers granted by the health act are in respect to a health emergency! Another lockdown implemented as a punishment is absolutely not what those powers allow. Would it bring down government? Maybe!

I think there are bigger issues. For example the housing crisis something we already had pre Covid has been worsened as a result of Covid(the rights and wrongs of the restrictions are for a different thread as far as I am concerned). This will have a long term impact for the current government probably for the worse. There is also the issue of easing Covid supports and dealing with the reality some businesses are now unviable and will go bust as a result. The issue of long-term unemployment is also going to be a problem. I think these long term issues will be a bigger problem for the current and future governments. The government isn't going to impose a new lock down that it doesn't think people will obey. That's political suicide and the government aren't that stupid. It's the longer term impact of the restrictions imposed over the last year or so that will have a big impact on politics going forward the housing crisis being just one prominent example.

VinLieger

I honestly believe if they delay indoor dining past the 5th then neither FG or FF can win this seat, I'd guess this is why we've started hearing rumblings about them supporting transfers between each other.

L1011

FF had virtually no chance from the off, and that became zero chance with their candidate selection.

But yes, a delay is likely to lead to a protest vote to anyone-but-Government which would be Boylan and Bacik as most likely beneficiaries.

Larbre34

The assumption that a big block of voters in DBS are in agreement with the reopening of indoor dining in any event, irrespective of any well evidenced reason to delay it, is just silly.

Need I remind people that only weeks ago the Govt got a 70% approval for their handling of the situation, hardly surprising when voters look at some of the cack handed nonsense going on in other Countries. In a middle class constituency like DBS, that approval rate is probably even higher.

blanch152

Larbre34 wrote: »

The assumption that a big block of voters in DBS are in agreement with the reopening of indoor dining in any event, irrespective of any well evidenced reason to delay it, is just silly.

Need I remind people that only weeks ago the Govt got a 70% approval for their handling of the situation, hardly surprising when voters look at some of the cack handed nonsense going on in other Countries. In a middle class constituency like DBS, that approval rate is probably even higher.

When you consider that some members of the opposition are still clinging to the nonsensical zero-Covid position, the actions of the government look more reasonable every day.

VinLieger

Whatever about the current government i think that's holohans presidential bid definitely DOA now

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

The assumption that a big block of voters in DBS are in agreement with the reopening of indoor dining in any event, irrespective of any well evidenced reason to delay it, is just silly.

I think you underestimate the level of demand out there for a big bowl of Tribeca chicken wings.

VinLieger wrote: »

Whatever about the current government i think that's holohans presidential bid definitely DOA now

That's surely sarcasm? It actually wouldn't surprise me if people were seriously talking about 'Tony' for president, I'm afraid.

I see a minority of people constantly fawning over the guy on the likes of Twitter. I don't get it. There was a big political story in the UK about the shambles they made when transferring elderly hospital patients to nursing homes and the subsequent excessive rates of death in those nursing homes. Barely a miog about it here, although at one point nursing-home deaths constituted one-third of all Covid deaths here.

Larbre34

Leaving DBS aside, I think what Micheál just announced is more than a bit naive.

Indoor dining is being delayed and a system of admitting only vaccinated people to it from July 19 (actually that date wasn't even specified).

There are several problems with that. Resident's dining indoors in hotels continues. Outdoor sporting events are seeing much bigger crowds than ever this weekend (8,000 in Croker). And considering that in employment settings, Employers may not in any circumstances ask employees about their vaccination status, I hardly expect a huge buy-in from Joe Public to disclosing that to pub and restaurant staff. And we're talking about a public that have had their civil liberties bent considerably in the last 16 months.

I would by nature be conservative and compliant about these restrictions in that time, but I foresee a strong liklihood that the hospitality sector may well face down the Government and go ahead and reopen en masse anyway this Monday and at this stage I don't think I'd blame them one bit.

I've also no doubt that there is not unanimity in either the cabinet or the Government benches and could easily become the biggest threat to the coalition in its year of life so far.