Rent Increase without notice

Tar.Aldarion

Just got this email from the estate agents today:

Your rent was increased to €X on the 31st of December 2020 however we have continued to receive your rent of €Y per month.


Because of this your account is now in arrears.

This is the first I've heard anything about any increase, I've emailed them back saying so now. They usually would have sent the official letter, with notice and similar properties etc but nothing this year.

I am wondering what to do here? I assume they are going to say they sent a letter? Will see. I'm not happy with the first time I'm hearing of a rent increase (5.6% - I assume the maximum they are allowed to do due to the rent freeze) is that I am in arrears about it.

An Ri rua

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Just got this email from the estate agents today:




This is the first I've heard anything about any increase, I've emailed them back saying so now. They usually would have sent the official letter, with notice and similar properties etc but nothing this year.

I am wondering what to do here? I assume they are going to say they sent a letter? Will see. I'm not happy with the first time I'm hearing of a rent increase (5.6% - I assume the maximum they are allowed to do due to the rent freeze) is that I am in arrears about it.

Best of luck Op. It does not sound like proper practice was followed.

BrokenArrows

The burden of proof is on the agent or landlord.
If they can't prove you got the letter via a registered post then there is nothing they can do.

Lantus

Threshold and rtb have lots of info. If in an rpz the cap is 4pc every 2 years and you must receive the full calculation otherwise you can proceed by registering a breach to rtb.

If you had covid and we're getting a pup there are additional protections.

MacDanger

It doesn't appear to be a legal rent review if you haven't received written notice of it. Full details of what should be included in a rent review are here:

https://www.rtb.ie/news/new-notices-of-rent-review-from-01-july-2019

In short, you should get a written notice 90 days before the increased rent is due to come into effect (assuming that a rent review is allowable)

Tar.Aldarion

BrokenArrows wrote: »

The burden of proof is on the agent or landlord.
If they can't prove you got the letter via a registered post then there is nothing they can do.

They sent me this receipt saying they used express post, to show proof that they posted it (not that received it). Is that sufficient?




I tried tracking those, and while it says they are delivered, it doesn't say where. I imagine it is above board but as I didn't get the letter I'm not happy about it.

MacDanger

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

They sent me this receipt saying they used express post, to show proof that they posted it (not that received it). Is that sufficient?




I tried tracking those, and while it says they are delivered, it doesn't say where. I imagine it is above board but as I didn't get the letter I'm not happy about it.

Does it have your address on it?

Tar.Aldarion

There are no addresses at all when tracked, just that it was delivered:

30 September 2020 14:01

We delivered your post

30 September 2020 09:17

Your post is out for delivery

30 September 2020 01:47

We have your post and are getting it ready for delivery

29 September 2020 23:41

Your delivery has been sorted DUBLIN MAIL CENTRE, DUBLIN 12

29 September 2020 17:15

Your post was accepted in INCHICORE, DUBLIN 8

MacDanger

Seems unlikely that they could use it as proof of delivery then, sure it could be to any address

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah true, I'm sure an post themselves could give more info. At the end of the day it does seem like they sent it and the letter got stolen or or lost or something so while unhappy about it, I guess I should pay.

Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yeah true, I'm sure an post themselves could give more info. At the end of the day it does seem like they sent it and the letter got stolen or or lost or something so while unhappy about it, I guess I should pay.

As there is no proof that you received a written rent review, you should request a new notice to be issued noting the correct timescale for the increase to commence.

Tar.Aldarion

Dav010 wrote: »

As there is no proof that you received a written rent review, you should request a new notice to be issued noting the correct timescale for the increase to commence.

Should they have proof I received it over just proof that they sent it?

2Mad2BeMad

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Should they have proof I received it over just proof that they sent it?

You can request a pod/signature.rung an post and give the tracking number. They will ask for your email and send it to you.
At least if you see who signed for it you might know where it ended up.
Not receiving the post specially from express labels would have me worried that my other post is getting lost or signed for by someone else

Tar.Aldarion

I looked up express post and there is only a need for a signature if they pay extra, which they did not I guess. I actually contacted them about post being stolen here and the management company but nothing is being done about it.

MacDanger

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Should they have proof I received it over just proof that they sent it?

I would expect so. As it stands, they have proof that they sent something to somebody on that date but nothing further. Since it's an agent, it's possible that they send things all the time and they thought they sent yours but never did.

Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Should they have proof I received it over just proof that they sent it?

I would imagine that the tracking numbers you were sent show only a letter was sent, not whom it was sent to and what was in it.

Caranica

Since Covid arrived there has been no signing for post/parcels, the delivery person signs themselves.

What the agent sent is about as much use to them as a chocolate teapot. It could have been picked up on the street, items could have been posted to their grandmother. It is not proof that you've been notified of a rent increase.

Tar.Aldarion

I rang An Post and it was delivered to an address in my Dublin 7 (correct) but that is all the info they have, and there are tons of apartments rented here by them.
So they could have sent it to me or to somebody else, no way to tell.

cruizer101

All that image says is that they have sent some stuff, no details of where it is going, let them send on the proper notification.

Browney7

Who has to dispute with who here? Does OP have to dispute with the RTB that their agent has given an invalid review or does thae agent have to to the RTB to prove arrears?

Subutai

Browney7 wrote: »

Who has to dispute with who here? Does OP have to dispute with the RTB that their agent has given an invalid review or does thae agent have to to the RTB to prove arrears?

OP does not have to do anything other than continue to pay his/her rent at the current rate unless and until they receive a valid notice of a rent review.

The landlord could raise a dispute over alleged arrears. They would lose if they cannot show evidence that the rent review notice was both correct and received.

Browney7

Subutai wrote: »

OP does not have to do anything other than continue to pay his/her rent at the current rate unless and until they receive a valid notice of a rent review.

The landlord could raise a dispute over alleged arrears. They would lose if they cannot show evidence that the rent review notice was both correct and received.

So just thinking down the escalation line (if it escalated that is and not to be alarmist about it) , is the risk to the OP that the agent is adamant they did send it, issues 14 days notice of arrears, issue notice of termination for arrears not rectified etc.

Then agent goes to RTB to remove tenant and shows the letter at adjudication to RTB, shows the an post receipt and the OPs only evidence is "I never got the letter" (can't prove a negative) can It be deemed a valid termination or does the Agent have to prove it was in effect put in the tenants possession?

MacDanger

Browney7 wrote: »

So just thinking down the escalation line (if it escalated that is and not to be alarmist about it) , is the risk to the OP that the agent is adamant they did send it, issues 14 days notice of arrears, issue notice of termination for arrears not rectified etc.

Then agent goes to RTB to remove tenant and shows the letter at adjudication to RTB, shows the an post receipt and the OPs only evidence is "I never got the letter" (can't prove a negative) can It be deemed a valid termination or does the Agent have to prove it was in effect put in the tenants possession?

It's up to the agent to prove that they gave a valid notice of rent review; I don't believe they can do that so RTB would rule in favour of the tenant.

Smee_Again

As far as I can see this can only really go 3 ways -

• OP pays the increased rate backdated to January
• Agency issues OP with a valid notice and he pays the higher rate in 3 months
• OP/Agency raises a dispute with RTB who may or may not decide valid notice was issued

I wouldn't take the first option when option 3 is there, and if I was the agency I wouldn't risk option 3 because it could delay matters for months when option 2 is there.

Smee_Again

Smee_Again wrote: »

As far as I can see this can only really go 3 ways -

• OP pays the increased rate backdated to January
• Agency issues OP with a valid notice and he pays the higher rate in 3 months
• OP/Agency raises a dispute with RTB who may or may not decide valid notice was issued

I wouldn't take the first option when option 3 is there, and if I was the agency I wouldn't risk option 3 because it could delay matters for months when option 2 is there.

This is the way that I'd treat it, from both points of view. Bad form for them to send a letter, then not follow it up. Express post is not fit for purpose in this regard. Registered is the only acceptable method for proof of delivery. Proof of postage means SFA, at least that's what I was told by the RTB.

Tar.Aldarion

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the way that I'd treat it, from both points of view. Bad form for them to send a letter, then not follow it up. Express post is not fit for purpose in this regard. Registered is the only acceptable method for proof of delivery. Proof of postage means SFA, at least that's what I was told by the RTB.

Yes, I rang the RTB now and they said similar. I contacted the estate agents to ask about all this and they said they'll get back to me next week (person wasn't there to deal with it).

Smee_Again

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the way that I'd treat it, from both points of view. Bad form for them to send a letter, then not follow it up. Express post is not fit for purpose in this regard. Registered is the only acceptable method for proof of delivery. Proof of postage means SFA, at least that's what I was told by the RTB.

Yeah, the agency goofed by not following up to check the letter was received.

The OP has nothing really to lose by disputing with the RTB so the agency will want to avoid that if possible. Lesson learned for the agency and a few quid saved for the OP.

Tar.Aldarion

Got this now:

Please be advised that our records state that the Rent increase was sent on the 29th September 2020 via Express Post.



While we stand over our records, we will also send this Rent Review via email going forward.



I trust this is agreeable?



Can you please confirm that this is agreeable with you?



I await your response



Kind regards

Smee_Again

Reply back and say that once you receive a valid rent review with the correct notice period you will amend your monthly payment.

MacDanger

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Got this now:

I guess it's up to you whether it's agreeable or not, according to the RTB website:

A tenant must be informed of any review to the rent with at least 90 days’ notice in writing of a change in rent (an email or text is not considered appropriate notice of a rent review)

https://www.rtb.ie/news/new-notices-...m-01-july-2019

Caranica

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Got this now:

Do not agree. They seem to be trying to get you to accept that rent review in talking about going forward.

Tell them your last review was x date and you will continue to pay the agreed rent set them until a valid rent review is conducted with the statutorily required notice.

Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Got this now:

As others have already said, I'd not be accepting anything or indicating that I accept anything of the sort. There is a possibility they are trying to get you to say yes, only to then claim that you now owe the backdated rent increase.

Facts, as of today include:

1) You do not owe any rent for previous month or two
2) Any rent review they wish to foist upon you going forward must comply with the RTA
3) That includes sending it by registered post, email is (again) worth SFA
4) It also needs to be 2 years after the last rent review or 2 years after the tenancy commenced
5) It also cannot begin until at least 90 days after you've RECEIVED the notice
6) It also must include details of comparable properties (size, nature, type, scale, what floor the apartment is on, number of beds, balconies etc. etc.)
7) You can dispute any review you perceive as unfair with RTB within 28 days of receiving it
7) You do not have to let them know all of this....If they don't comply with the above and you wanted to play hardball, you can wait until the 90 days is up and say "sorry, that rent review notice is not valid, please try again". The 90 days starts again from day 1.

That last point is up to you. If I was dealing with a LL directly, I'd be more inclined to be nicer. But an agency should know all of this and they're paid handsomely for the privilege. If they f'd up with the initial rent increase, the LL may well be within his rights to extract the extra cash from them, not you. I know if I was in their boat, that's exactly what I'd be doing.

Whatever you do, do not say "I am agreeable to your email" or they will try to pin the backdated rent increase on you.

Tar.Aldarion

Thanks. I will think about it. My main issue is the sudden arrears. They may have sent it but it got lost/stolen. I could offer a compromise of not paying the arrears and paying the increased rent from now and along with them posting reviews in future email it as well. Or else do as you guys suggest.

pc7

Are rent reviews allowed in RPZ at the minute with Covid, or are things back in action again in that regard, I thought things had been frozen?

pc7

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Thanks. I will think about it. My main issue is the sudden arrears. They may have sent it but it got lost/stolen. I could offer a compromise of not paying the arrears and paying the increased rent from now and along with them posting reviews in future email it as well. Or else do as you guys suggest.

Do not pay anything extra at all at this point, you have not received valid notice, wait until you receive it but the notice period will still stand.

ibarelycare

Regardless of the notice, if you're in Dublin you're in a RPZ so the maximum they can increase it by is 4% every 2 years.

Batattackrat

pc7 wrote: »

Are rent reviews allowed in RPZ at the minute with Covid, or are things back in action again in that regard, I thought things had been frozen?

If your impacted by Covid such as getting the PUP payment they are.

OP the letting agent has messed up big time and are trying to cover themselves. Tell them when you receive a letter with the rent increase and three months notice you will pay.

A registered letter with a signature is what they should have done, a follow up call and email and even delivering the letter themselves in person.

They have no comeback here.

MacDanger

Pure speculation but I wonder if the agency is trying to cover their ass here i.e. did the LL ask the agent to review the rent, the agency made a balls of it and is now trying to recover because the LL will (rightly from their point of view) be expecting to see the increased amount coming in

ibarelycare

ibarelycare wrote: »

Regardless of the notice, if you're in Dublin you're in a RPZ so the maximum they can increase it by is 4% every 2 years.

It’s 4% per annum and if there hasn’t been a rent review for a while, there is a calculator on the RTB site which can be used to calculate a higher rent increase within the regs.


Op. In relation to what they said to you, tell them rent reviews must be in writing, an email is not a valid method of service.

jimmycrackcorm

MacDanger wrote: »

Pure speculation but I wonder if the agency is trying to cover their ass here i.e. did the LL ask the agent to review the rent, the agency made a balls of it and is now trying to recover because the LL will (rightly from their point of view) be expecting to see the increased amount coming in

Hardly covering their asses when they have a receipt showing they sent out letters on September 29th. So in a dispute, the onus is to prove that notice was ent on time. Based on the receipt, it would point to have been done.

Was it valid? Supposedly sent 90 days as required, is the increase a valid one? I'm assuming that is hardly wrong. So it comes down to whether or not it's proveable that the op received the notice. Perhaps requiring a signature of receipt should be required, but that also means anyone refusing to sign for delivery can get around that.

Reminds me of when my ex went to court over a speeding fine that she didn't get in the post, just a summons later hand-dropped in the letterbox. Told the judge she would have paid the fine had she received it, but sometimes we get post for a similar address nearby. The judge asked if we had complained about this to An Post, which we hadn't as we would not have been aware sometimes of mail that didn't arrive, also asked the Guard if the fines had been sent out. He said they had, that was as much proof as was required.
The lesson is, I guess, that unless the agency can be shown to be totally incompetent, an RTB hearing could likely conclude that they sent out the notice as required.

It'll come down to the word of the agency vs the op. At the end of the day, in the worst case, opening a dispute with the RTB would just delay the extra payment.

Tar.Aldarion

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Hardly covering their asses when they have a receipt showing they sent out letters on September 29th. So in a dispute, the onus is to prove that notice was ent on time. Based on the receipt, it would point to have been done.

Was it valid? Supposedly sent 90 days as required, is the increase a valid one? I'm assuming that is hardly wrong. So it comes down to whether or not it's proveable that the op received the notice. Perhaps requiring a signature of receipt should be required, but that also means anyone refusing to sign for delivery can get around that.

Reminds me of when my ex went to court over a speeding fine that she didn't get in the post, just a summons later hand-dropped in the letterbox. Told the judge she would have paid the fine had she received it, but sometimes we get post for a similar address nearby. The judge asked if we had complained about this to An Post, which we hadn't as we would not have been aware sometimes of mail that didn't arrive, also asked the Guard if the fines had been sent out. He said they had, that was as much proof as was required.
The lesson is, I guess, that unless the agency can be shown to be totally incompetent, an RTB hearing could likely conclude that they sent out the notice as required.

It'll come down to the word of the agency vs the op. At the end of the day, in the worst case, opening a dispute with the RTB would just delay the extra payment.

The receipt does show the correct date, and there are multiple, so I assume that the other apartments in this block had their rent increased too. They may have not sent it by mistake, or it got lost or stolen and at the end of the day it seems to be what you say, my word vs theirs. I have complained to them and to the management agency about post being stolen in the last few months but nothing at all is being done about it.

While the RTB do say that the post should be registered, I would imagine they could accept that they likely sent it so I should pay. Though I have no idea about the rules, as in does there need to be proof of receipt, not merely sending?

As for the worst that can happen, they can be dicks if I try to dispute, not getting maintenance done for months, kicking me out at the next part IV renewal etc, things like that. Increasing the rent every 12 months on the dot (instead of 17 like this time).

Padre_Pio

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

The receipt does show the correct date, and there are multiple, so I assume that the other apartments in this block had their rent increased too. They may have not sent it by mistake, or it got lost or stolen and at the end of the day it seems to be what you say, my word vs theirs. I have complained to them and to the management agency about post being stolen in the last few months but nothing at all is being done about it.

What do your neighbors say? Did they get the same letter?

Caranica

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Thanks. I will think about it. My main issue is the sudden arrears. They may have sent it but it got lost/stolen. I could offer a compromise of not paying the arrears and paying the increased rent from now and along with them posting reviews in future email it as well. Or else do as you guys suggest.

You'd be crazy to do this. They legally cannot increase your rent until 90 days after you've received valid notice so you have at least 3 months at your current rent.

Do not agree to the email thing, it is not what the law says.

JoChervil

OP, this proof, which they sent is only about certain amount of letters posted to a certain area. So it not a proof. Ask them to show you a Certificate of Posting on which your name and full address should be written. If they didn't ask for it at the post office, so it is their fault because now they have no proof.

I would ask about new rent review and start paying it in three months, if you agree with it.

The DayDream

Smee_Again wrote: »

As far as I can see this can only really go 3 ways -

• OP pays the increased rate backdated to January
• Agency issues OP with a valid notice and he pays the higher rate in 3 months
• OP/Agency raises a dispute with RTB who may or may not decide valid notice was issued

I wouldn't take the first option when option 3 is there, and if I was the agency I wouldn't risk option 3 because it could delay matters for months when option 2 is there.

This is the best advice (Ive been in several RTB disputes) but agents are thick as pig shíte when it comes to these matters.

My advice is open a dispute right away, you can do it online, it used to cost 15.00, because it's the only way you can get it through their heads that they didn't issue a valid notice. No point arguing with them as they'll always dig their heels in until you actually file the dispute.

If the RTB decides there was no valid notice (which is likely, a list of random tracking numbers is no proof at all of a valid notice) you wont be liable for that increase until valid notice is served, and then whatever the notice period is.

I'll bet they've been sitting on their hole doing nothing and are just now deciding to try and chance their arm by blaming the tenant.

The DayDream

Caranica wrote: »

You'd be crazy to do this. They legally cannot increase your rent until 90 days after you've received valid notice so you have at least 3 months at your current rent.

Do not agree to the email thing, it is not what the law says.

100%. Please listen to the advice given. This is why these agents get away with murder and fleecing people when they can't even do their job right they still bully people into paying money they don't even owe. They're scamming you, they never sent any letter or you would have got it. Those numbers are not proof, have you seen a copy of the letter. Why would they wait til now to contact you, wouldn't they want to make sure you got the letter and you agreed to the increase?

No, they think this is a better way, hit you with an arrears notice to scare you into paying. Hit them back with a dispute through RTB, which unlike their BS, IS totally valid. You'll save a lot of money and stop them trying to scam you again.

As above, why would you pay when you don't owe it? They didn't offer valid notice, that means you don't owe them the increased rent, and you dont owe it from 90 days after the valid notice is served. That could take these muppets another month or more.

File the RTB dispute online. Ive been in this situation, without 100% proof of valid notice the landlord loses these every time. For the cost of the dispute filing (15 euro) you will save yourself at least 5 or 6 months of that increased rent cost.

riffmongous

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Hardly covering their asses when they have a receipt showing they sent out letters on September 29th. So in a dispute, the onus is to prove that notice was ent on time. Based on the receipt, it would point to have been done.

Was it valid? Supposedly sent 90 days as required, is the increase a valid one? I'm assuming that is hardly wrong. So it comes down to whether or not it's proveable that the op received the notice. Perhaps requiring a signature of receipt should be required, but that also means anyone refusing to sign for delivery can get around that.

Ah here, if you refuse to sign for it it's not like the postman just throws it in the bin afterwards and marks it as delivered This case is the exact reason why you need to use registered post, and it's going to be an expensive lesson learned for the agent

Fkall

ibarelycare wrote: »

Regardless of the notice, if you're in Dublin you're in a RPZ so the maximum they can increase it by is 4% every 2 years.

The permitted rent increase in a RPZ is 4% p.a.

Winegum1

Definitely open up a dispute. You did not receive the notice end of.
You've also said you complained before about post going missing so that's on your side too.

Unless its registered they really don't have a leg to stand on. Plenty of people refuse letter at doors, parking fines etc. Some won't sign for a family member because they know its a fine or something and it just gets sent back.
Nothing can be done without your signature, as someone said above. It'll be a lesson for them to register in future.

Subutai

Winegum1 wrote: »

Definitely open up a dispute. You did not receive the notice end of.
You've also said you complained before about post going missing so that's on your side too.

Unless its registered they really don't have a leg to stand on. Plenty of people refuse letter at doors, parking fines etc. Some won't sign for a family member because they know its a fine or something and it just gets sent back.
Nothing can be done without your signature, as someone said above. It'll be a lesson for them to register in future.

OP does not need to open a dispute. All they need to do is continue to pay their rent as they've been doing. Leave it to them to open a dispute, if they're foolish enough to go down that route OP will happily continue paying his current rent for a few months while the case makes its way to arbitration where the landlord will lose, and then they'll additionally get the statutory increase notice period.

Seve OB

Fkall wrote: »

The permitted rent increase in a RPZ is 4% p.a.

is this new?
i also thought it was every 2 years