Plumbers

Steveop

How much are your plumbers charging per hour. I got a quote today for a job I nearly fell over

kingbhome

Steveop wrote: »

How much are your plumbers charging per hour. I got a quote today for a job I nearly fell over

40-50 per hour. They go to college, get a qualification. Spend 10s of thousands on tools, van,insurance, public liability insurance, vat, income tax, diesel, clothing, etc..

How much do you think they should charge

Steveop

I don’t know I never had to get a plumber before I’m just curious

MAULBROOK

Steveop wrote: »

I don’t know I never had to get a plumber before I’m just curious

How much and what for?

Steveop

€1300 to renovate the bathroom plumbing works only

Damien360

Steveop wrote: »

€1300 to renovate the bathroom plumbing works only

You may do better than that. Describe the job in detail.

Renovate plumbing meaning replacing all the plumbing or fit new toilet, sink, bath, shower. Moving them or leaving in situ. Has he to pull up floor or chase wall ?

Steveop

Toilet staying in situ sink been moved 1m and run a hot cold through wall into hot press for shower. I bout all the fittings. He’s supply pipe and doing chasing

DOCARCH

Easiest solution is get another quote to verify.

I had a bathroom re-done in my house (with wc staying in same position, wash hand basin moved, bath removed and shower/shower tray installed), and, despite being an architect, I was surprised by the amount of plumbing work involved to do what I thought was a very simple/quick job!

Stihl waters

When it a boils down to it its supply and demand, he can quote for that as he probably has plenty of work on and if he gets it its worth his while and if he doesn't it's no big deal, electricians seem to be the same, 40 euro an hour minimum and can't be got, that said though I'd be looking to get a couple of more quotes so you know where you stand

muffler

kingbhome wrote: »

40-50 per hour. They go to college, get a qualification. Spend 10s of thousands on tools, van,insurance, public liability insurance, vat, income tax, diesel, clothing, etc..

Heard it all before. In fact I'm a little tired of reading such comments especially about tradesmen in Dublin and surrounding areas trying to justify the crazy charges. Guess what? The plumbers out in the sticks have the same outlays but would be lucky to get much more than half of the hourly rate mentioned.

kingbhome

muffler wrote: »

Heard it all before. In fact I'm a little tired of reading such comments especially about tradesmen in Dublin and surrounding areas trying to justify the crazy charges. Guess what? The plumbers out in the sticks have the same outlays but would be lucky to get much more than half of the hourly rate mentioned.

I have 2 friends who are plumbers out in the sticks and can get 300+ a day and are turning down work all over the place. Tilers, plasterers on 250+ and some are getting that cash. Stonemasons getting 100-140a sq meter and are putting up 4-5 or sometimes even 6sq meters a day with a laborer. Anyone getting 20e an hour plumbing needs there head seen too. That's 160e for an 8 hour day. No one is getting so little money nowadays when it's near impossible to get anyone.

kingbhome

muffler wrote: »

Heard it all before. In fact I'm a little tired of reading such comments especially about tradesmen in Dublin and surrounding areas trying to justify the crazy charges. Guess what? The plumbers out in the sticks have the same outlays but would be lucky to get much more than half of the hourly rate mentioned.

Muffler, how can you even say that about asking for crazy prices(your words) like this.

Do the maths. It wouldn't make business sense to charge 20e an hour being self employed. Behave yourself! You add up the insurance costs for public liability and van and maybe tools to. Tool maintenance, fuel and all the other associated costs I mentioned then they'll be left with less than the minimum wage.

muffler

As I said I heard it all before and now Im hearing it all again. Poor, poor east coast tradesmen.

Oh, I never mentioned a figure of €20 btw.

That me finished on this point.

scwazrh

muffler wrote: »

The plumbers out in the sticks have the same outlays but would be lucky to get much more than half of the hourly rate mentioned.

So you’re saying a little more than €20 / hr

Legal rates for tradesmen is €19.60 / hr for PAYE employees . That’s the minimum rate , the going paye rate throughout the country is €25 / hr paye and for plumbers and sparks is more .
A business will sell at usually double the paye amount at a minimum to cover the additional staff costs and overheads so the least you should expect to pay for qualified plumbers is €50 / hr regardless of location.

I don’t know where out in the sticks is for you but I would be surprised if there is qualified legit business plumbing engineers working anywhere in Europe for a little as the rate you think is acceptable .

K.Flyer

This is an extract from an article in Tradesman .ie back in 2014 calculating how much a self-employed person needs to charge to maintain the same standard of living that the same person working in the same job as a paye employee. The big difference is that there is no allowance for days off due to illness etc.
The hourly rates in the article are for guidance, but the factoring is much the same, I personally think it should be higher than the 2.5 X paye hourly rate indicated.

Experts say that for self employed rates you would need to multiply an employee’s salary by a factor of 2.5 in order to maintain the same standard of living. There is a nice article on Businessknowhow.com that explains in more detail the reasons behind this thinking. You can see the article here

In that case a self employed tradesman would be charging 17.21 x 2.5 = €43 per hour but the charge would be higher per hour if it was less than a days work as you would have to account for . If the tradesman is registered for VAT, it would work out at €43 + 13.5% = €48.80 per hour. Some tradesmen (the same as any other profession) can command a premium if they are highly specialised or carry out a higher standard of work than would be the norm. So as you can see when tradesmen charge prices like these they are not so high afterall.

kingbhome

muffler wrote: »

Guess what? The plumbers out in the sticks have the same outlays but would be lucky to get much more than half of the hourly rate mentioned.

Be lucky to get more than half what's mentioned. Lucky to get half than 40e an hour is around 20e an hour averaged out for you muffler.

There is some tradesmen that would charge 20e or less but this isn't the norm they might not have a Mortgage, rent to pay and are just happy ticking over having work. Everyone is different.

kingbhome

scwazrh wrote: »

So you’re saying a little more than €20 / hr

Legal rates for tradesmen is €19.60 / hr for PAYE employees . That’s the minimum rate , the going paye rate throughout the country is €25 / hr paye and for plumbers and sparks is more .
A business will sell at usually double the paye amount at a minimum to cover the additional staff costs and overheads so the least you should expect to pay for qualified plumbers is €50 / hr regardless of location.

I don’t know where out in the sticks is for you but I would be surprised if there is qualified legit business plumbing engineers working anywhere in Europe for a little as the rate you think is acceptable .

Is the legal rate they take home after tax or is that before tax.

K.Flyer

kingbhome wrote: »

Is the legal rate they take home after tax or is that before tax.

To try help with this discussion..
The last time I worked paye was well over ten years ago. The union rate for paye plumbers at the time was just over 800 euro before tax. But.. you also had a company van (maintained, taxed and insured), company phone, holiday pay, sick pay, employers prsi contribution, pension contribution paid for you and company heavy tools available.
All invoicing, accounting, dealing with contracts, materials for work etc etc was all down to the company.
All I had to supply were my own small to medium tools and equipment and my knowledge and experience. At the end of the day I went home and didn't think about work until the following morning.
You can be damn sure that company didn't charge me out to customers only to try cover my wages, they easy charged 2 - 3 times my wage rate, if not much more.
I don't know how a self employed plumber is expected to provide himself with the same level of income only charging 20 euro /hr.

I Am The Law

Steveop wrote: »

€1300 to renovate the bathroom plumbing works only

Compare this to what people pay solicitors, auctioneers,consultants, architects for sweet FA!

scwazrh

kingbhome wrote: »

Is the legal rate they take home after tax or is that before tax.

Its before tax on standard 39 hrs.

kingbhome

scwazrh wrote: »

Its before tax on standard 39 hrs.

what's that coming in at after tax

Buddy Bubs

kingbhome wrote: »

So what's that coming in at after tax

Everyone's tax is different. I've hired people before and offered them a salary and they say what's that after tax? Eh....that depends on your own situation I don't pay after tax wages.

MAULBROOK

Lads if you think a plumber is expensive you clearly have never dealt with lift engineers. €130 ph minimum 3 hours per call out. 600% mark up on parts is standard.
Never move into a apartment.

P2C

Had a plumber and apprentice out last week. Replaced expansion vessel. I say maybe 40 mins as I drained the system for them. I live six miles from town where there based. Charged €120 and they supplied the vessel. So guessing €70 for labour. Had a builder on-site until the restrictions just completed raft foundation 8x4.5 m. Built the mounds, form, tied the steel and poured the slab. He cost €850 with a tip and he does a very good days work. I say took him 5 days give or take. I supplied all the materials. Plumbers day cost is €200 per man and builder is charging €150. In Sligo but you have to wait for the right man

Buddy Bubs

That 'builder' is working off the books with no insurance, no doubt about that.
And he still doesn't value his time very much.

Don't even try to tell me he is paying tax and has insurance and is charging 150 a day.

It doesn't bother me what he pays or who you hire but don't compare apples with oranges.

Sleeper12

The "builder" sounds like a handyman rather than a qualified tradesman. I'm sure he would have tried his hand at the plumbing job had you asked

Stihl waters

I'd love to see some of the prices mentioned here, tradesmen charge 200 to 250 a day through the books around here, 150 to 170 cash price, I do a lot of renovations, all small jobs and no tradesman has asked me more than 170 cash or 200 through books for work carried out

kingbhome

P2C wrote: »

Had a plumber and apprentice out last week. Replaced expansion vessel. I say maybe 40 mins as I drained the system for them. I live six miles from town where there based. Charged €120 and they supplied the vessel. So guessing €70 for labour. Had a builder on-site until the restrictions just completed raft foundation 8x4.5 m. Built the mounds, form, tied the steel and poured the slab. He cost €850 with a tip and he does a very good days work. I say took him 5 days give or take. I supplied all the materials. Plumbers day cost is €200 per man and builder is charging €150. In Sligo but you have to wait for the right man

850, how many men and how many days. Some just stick to there basic cash price and also get money of the government somehow either farm assistance or dole.

scwazrh

Stihl waters wrote: »

I'd love to see some of the prices mentioned here, tradesmen charge 200 to 250 a day through the books around here, 150 to 170 cash price, I do a lot of renovations, all small jobs and no tradesman has asked me more than 170 cash or 200 through books for work carried out

You cannot run a business as a sole trading tradesman and charge €250 / day . It simply is not possible to cover your costs at that rate.The tradesmen you are getting for €200-€250 obviously haven’t a clue about business and should be working as employees and not be self employed

P2C

Yes he’s a handyman more than a building contractor sorry for generalisation but highly sought after and has excellent quality work. I am paying based on each stage, foundation, block, roof, stone. Have looked at plenty of his jobs and 100%. It’s all small extensions, grounds work, stone walls, paving, tiling etc. Have him booked for a year. Have a friend engineer who will take a look at each step. I wasn’t watching intently but I thought he was here around five days. Built my own house and subcontracted all the work the same way and worked out very cost effective. Done a lot of the work self build. Be interesting to see what the block works costs but they are sitting here for six weeks waiting and he’s said he won’t start until restrictions lifted so doesn’t sound like he’s on the the dole but maybe the PUP.

quote="kingbhome;116386470"]850, how many men and how many days. Some just stick to there basic cash price and also get money of the government somehow either farm assistance or dole.[/quote]

Stihl waters

scwazrh wrote: »

You cannot run a business as a sole trading tradesman and charge €250 / day . It simply is not possible to cover your costs at that rate.The tradesmen you are getting for €200-€250 obviously haven’t a clue about business and should be working as employees and not be self employed

I dont know what to tell you so, that's the going rate around my area and lads seem happy with it, and it's not just me, I don't know any tradesman charging more than that for any work in my area no matter who they're working for, and all good tradesmen with good reputations and quality work

I Am The Law

Steveop wrote: »

€1300 to renovate the bathroom plumbing works only

Get the lads on the plumbing forum to guide you through it, grand fellas and €1300 saved.

kingbhome

Stihl waters wrote: »

I dont know what to tell you so, that's the going rate around my area and lads seem happy with it, and it's not just me, I don't know any tradesman charging more than that for any work in my area no matter who they're working for, and all good tradesmen with good reputations and quality work

Plumbers and electricians seem to get more and always have been. I agree with you about some tradesmen charging these rates but they have a mind block and think they either won't get more or are deserved off it. These aren't businessmen! Just people who want a wage

kingbhome

P2C wrote: »

Yes he’s a handyman more than a building contractor sorry for generalisation but highly sought after and has excellent quality work. I am paying based on each stage, foundation, block, roof, stone. Have looked at plenty of his jobs and 100%. It’s all small extensions, grounds work, stone walls, paving, tiling etc. Have him booked for a year. Have a friend engineer who will take a look at each step. I wasn’t watching intently but I thought he was here around five days. Built my own house and subcontracted all the work the same way and worked out very cost effective. Done a lot of the work self build. Be interesting to see what the block works costs but they are sitting here for six weeks waiting and he’s said he won’t start until restrictions lifted so doesn’t sound like he’s on the the dole but maybe the PUP.

quote="kingbhome;116386470"]850, how many men and how many days. Some just stick to there basic cash price and also get money of the government somehow either farm assistance or dole.

[/quote]



Good on him for covering all that work. He'll be always busy. Can't fault him if he covers his own wages, pays his taxes and is happy.

booooonzo

kingbhome wrote: »

40-50 per hour. They go to college, get a qualification. Spend 10s of thousands on tools, van,insurance, public liability insurance, vat, income tax, diesel, clothing, etc..

How much do you think they should charge

there's not many spending €10.000+ on tools
vans are vat free and fuel
id bet there's a hell of a lot not paying much income tax
There are loads charging 200+ per day cash

you'd want a 90k paye job for similar take home

kingbhome

booooonzo wrote: »

there's not many spending €10.000+ on tools
vans are vat free and fuel
id bet there's a hell of a lot not paying much income tax
There are loads charging 200+ per day cash

you'd want a 90k paye job for similar take home

How much do you think they should charge per day.

I'd also be interested in knowing what muffler thinks s tradesman should charge aswell since he was the one that questioned the rates.

booooonzo

kingbhome wrote: »

How much do you think they should charge per day.

I'd also be interested in knowing what muffler thinks s tradesman should charge aswell since he was the one that questioned the rates.

probably not a black and white answer.
everyone is entitled to a fair wage but it seems to me that such a huge blind eye is turned to the cash end of the business that it taints the rest.
needs regulation, im sure it not easy as its such a cultural thing now but it is bizzar that its accepted for such a large industry to just not pay tax or only pay what's felt like.

on the flip side there are multinationals at the same on a much larger scale

2011

booooonzo wrote: »

there's not many spending €10.000+ on tools

When I worked as an electrical contractor (well over 10 years ago) I spend at least €1,000 just on test equipment and about the same on just one kango. So I would say that in total I would easily spent €10,000 on tools. Not to mention that quite a few items "walked".

vans are vat free and fuel

They are but that works both ways. If VAT registered you have to charge VAT as well. Besides the higher rates are 21 and 13.5% you still have to pay the balance.

There are loads charging 200+ per day cash

Why would any half descent spark or plumber do that?
They could make so much more working for someone else and let them take all of the risks and put up with all of the hassle.

An electrician with 5 years experience can expect to earn €23.12 per hour according to the TEEU. For me when I was on my tools overtime started at 1.5 times the hourly rate. Sunday was double pay all day. I also got a minimum of 2 hours travel per day, a host of other expenses, holiday pay and pension. I also got paid 10 hours extra to be on call out. €200 per day would have been very unappealing to me even back then.

Also this mythical €200 per day rate for a skilled individual, he / she would be working uninsured. Is it really worth it for the customer?

you'd want a 90k paye job for similar take home

At rate of €200 per day?
Clearly you have no idea of the overheads and have not factored in pension, sick pay, holidays, clients that refuse to pay / can't pay, stolen materials.....

It is really simple, if you don't agree with the price quoted go elsewhere. If the prices are as off the wall as you suggest you won't have an issue finding someone to do the work at a fraction of the cost.

booooonzo wrote: »

probably not a black and white answer.

So more than €200 per day?

everyone is entitled to a fair wage

Particularly after 4 years training.

but it seems to me that such a huge blind eye is turned to the cash end of the business that it taints the rest.

Who exactly is turning a blind eye? Revenue are carrying out audits to beat the band. I went through this myself!

needs regulation, im sure it not easy as its such a cultural thing now but it is bizzar that its accepted for such a large industry to just not pay tax or only pay what's felt like.

It is highly regulated!
Don't believe me??? Simply google CRU, Safe Electric and RECI.

booooonzo

2011 wrote: »

When I worked as an electrical contractor (well over 10 years ago) I spend at least €1,000 just on test equipment and about the same on just one kango. So I would say that in total I would easily spent €10,000 on tools. Not to mention that quite a few items "walked".



They are but that works both ways. If VAT registered you have to charge VAT as well. Besides the higher rates are 21 and 13.5% you still have to pay the balance.



Why would any half descent spark or plumber do that?
They could make so much more working for someone else and let them take all of the risks and put up with all of the hassle.

An electrician with 5 years experience can expect to earn €23.12 per hour according to the TEEU. For me when I was on my tools overtime started at 1.5 times the hourly rate. Sunday was double pay all day. I also got a minimum of 2 hours travel per day, a host of other expenses, holiday pay and pension. I also got paid 10 hours extra to be on call out. €200 per day would have been very unappealing to me even back then.

Also this mythical €200 per day rate for a skilled individual, he / she would be working uninsured. Is it really worth it for the customer?



At rate of €200 per day?
Clearly you have no idea of the overheads and have not factored in pension, sick pay, holidays, clients that refuse to pay / can't pay, stolen materials.....

It is really simple, if you don't agree with the price quoted go elsewhere. If the prices are as off the wall as you suggest you won't have an issue finding someone to do the work at a fraction of the cost.



So more than €200 per day?



Particularly after 4 years training.



Who exactly is turning a blind eye? Revenue are carrying out audits to beat the band. I went through this myself!




It is highly regulated!
Don't believe me??? Simply google CRU, Safe Electric and RECI.

To be fair i wasn't thinking of electrical at all , I got a price i was happy with from a registered electrician and was happy to go with that. It is one of the more regulated and the better for it id say..

Revenue might be auditing but there are countless people turning blind eyes
its in the culture to ask for a cash price for a "better deal"
its not accepted in other countries and seen as cheating the system and tax payer.

2011

booooonzo wrote: »

To be fair i wasn't thinking of electrical at all , I got a price i was happy with from a registered electrician and was happy to go with that.

Fair enough, but I would have presented the same argument if I was a plumber.

It is one of the more regulated and the better for it id say..

RGI are highly regulated.

Revenue might be auditing but there are countless people turning blind eyes
its in the culture to ask for a cash price for a "better deal"
its not accepted in other countries and seen as cheating the system and tax payer.

This is hardly something that just applies to plumbing!

Stihl waters

kingbhome wrote: »

How much do you think they should charge per day.

I'd also be interested in knowing what muffler thinks s tradesman should charge aswell since he was the one that questioned the rates.

Would it not be down to the individual what they want to charge, if one man charges 1000 a week and another charges 1500 and both are happy doing what they're at who's to say what a man should charge a day
Also it's not a level playing field across the board, my father in law is an electrician who is farms as well, all his children have flown the coop, he has no mortgage and would live a very modest life, now compare that to a 30 something with a young family a new van and a mortgage, if both of them priced a job who do you think could do it cheaper, not everyone wants or needs to charge 300 plus a day, it's down to what each individual is happy with

the_pen_turner

Stihl waters wrote: »

Would it not be down to the individual what they want to charge, if one man charges 1000 a week and another charges 1500 and both are happy doing what they're at who's to say what a man should charge a day
Also it's not a level playing field across the board, my father in law is an electrician who is farms as well, all his children have flown the coop, he has no mortgage and would live a very modest life, now compare that to a 30 something with a young family a new van and a mortgage, if both of them priced a job who do you think could do it cheaper, not everyone wants or needs to charge 300 plus a day, it's down to what each individual is happy with

there is nothing wrong with someone deciding that they only want to earn minium wage and bill themselves out at 200 day. but most tradesmen want to earn more than minium wage and they are perfectly right to want more considering the risk and stress we put up with.

we should be moving towards all trades charging 300 a day rather than 200 or less

quietsailor

2011 wrote: »

RGI are highly regulated.

RGI only deals with fitting gas appliances. A plumber removing a bathroom suite and installing a new one isn't required to be registered with any regulatory body. There is plenty of plumbing work out there that doesn't come under the reach of a regulatory body

scwazrh

the_pen_turner wrote: »

we should be moving towards all trades charging 300 a day rather than 200 or less

We should but we should also be moving to a higher level of professionalism in the trades sector .As soon as your a tradesman dealing directly with customers and not just house bashing on sites , you need to pay attention to business and customer service.
Unfortunately a lot of tradesman have the wrong attitude to customers which results in customers feeling that we are overpaid .

2011

quietsailor wrote: »

RGI only deals with fitting gas appliances

Agreed. That is where it is needed in my opinion.

A plumber removing a bathroom suite and installing a new one isn't required to be registered with any regulatory body. There is plenty of plumbing work out there that doesn't come under the reach of a regulatory body

....and if changing out a bathroom suite was regulated apart from driving up the cost what would it achieve for the customer?

the_pen_turner

scwazrh wrote: »

We should but we should also be moving to a higher level of professionalism in the trades sector .As soon as your a tradesman dealing directly with customers and not just house bashing on sites , you need to pay attention to business and customer service.
Unfortunately a lot of tradesman have the wrong attitude to customers which results in customers feeling that we are overpaid .

i agree 100%. i would like to see us move to a 4 billable week so you have the 5th day to price work and deal with customers

beggars_bush

MAULBROOK wrote: »

Lads if you think a plumber is expensive you clearly have never dealt with lift engineers. €130 ph minimum 3 hours per call out. 600% mark up on parts is standard.
Never move into a apartment.

Surely that is covered by the fees every owner pays into the management company?

Stihl waters

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i agree 100%. i would like to see us move to a 4 billable week so you have the 5th day to price work and deal with customers

What's stopping anyone that wants to do that doing it

the_pen_turner

Stihl waters wrote: »

What's stopping anyone that wants to do that doing it

customers willing to pay 25% higher rates

Stihl waters

the_pen_turner wrote: »

customers willing to pay 25% higher rates

That's not going to happen, the market dictates what you can get away with charging, while we would like to charge 500 a day it's not going to happen, you might get an odd customer that'll pay a premium but few will see the value of paying the cost of a small mortgage for a days work

the_pen_turner

Stihl waters wrote: »

That's not going to happen, the market dictates what you can get away with charging, while we would like to charge 500 a day it's not going to happen, you might get an odd customer that'll pay a premium but few will see the value of paying the cost of a small mortgage for a days work

a lot of the smaller guys and handymen in america work like that.. 4 days on site , 1 day office and pricing etc.
im not saying it will happen but we should be moving towards it.
everyone wants trademen to run thein business more profectionally and answer phone promtly and get out to look at jobs straight away and return quotes quickly but they dont want to pay extra to facilitate it