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Pension

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭dublin49


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Like I said I really could not give a toss what you say. But when you try to doge the issue I will call you out for the sake of others reading this thread and bring the discussion by to the topic at hand.


    We have heard all kinds of nonsense allegations and we are still waiting for you to bring a single valid allegation against a pension fund.

    This is silly,a pension fund is an inanimate entity,like a deposit account ,I have no issue with Pension Funds,I have cautioned against where you take your Pension advice and I provided an example of an investment firm offering retirement planning that were fined 4 Million Euro this week for sharp practise.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Chill out man.
    dublin49 wrote: »
    This is silly,a pension fund is an inanimate entity,like a deposit account ,I have no issue with Pension Funds,I have cautioned against where you take your Pension advice and I provided an example of an investment firm offering retirement planning that were fined 4 Million Euro this week for sharp practise.


    It not something chill out about, when people make false claims that could impact decisions that other people about their well being.


    @dublin49: Still waiting on you to justify your claims with an actually valid example that supports your original claim that a pension fund was impacted.


    At this stage, pretty much everyone has a good of what your statements are worth. So lets have a credible example????


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    dublin49 wrote: »
    This is silly,a pension fund is an inanimate entity,like a deposit account ,I have no issue with Pension Funds,I have cautioned against where you take your Pension advice and I provided an example of an investment firm offering retirement planning that were fined 4 Million Euro this week for sharp practise.


    Silly is continuing to make false statements about pension fund outcomes and expecting that it will fly.


    So we're still waiting for a credible example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭dublin49


    Drastic steps needed to halt collapse of pensions
    DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter

    January 04 2009 04:49 AM

    Irish workers' pensions were the worst performing funds in 2008 of any in the developed world with losses of up to 35 per cent being inflicted on some, according to new figures obtained by the Sunday Independent.

    As the country faces a major pensions crisis in 2009 with a number of high-profile company schemes expected to collapse by June, the Government looks set to have to bail out or supplement schemes that are now in deficit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,346 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    dublin49 wrote: »
    Drastic steps needed to halt collapse of pensions
    DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter

    January 04 2009 04:49 AM

    Irish workers' pensions were the worst performing funds in 2008 of any in the developed world with losses of up to 35 per cent being inflicted on some, according to new figures obtained by the Sunday Independent.

    As the country faces a major pensions crisis in 2009 with a number of high-profile company schemes expected to collapse by June, the Government looks set to have to bail out or supplement schemes that are now in deficit.

    A twelve year old article, from a time of global recession, making predictions that never came true? Is that your best?

    Why not show a more recent article, like this one from last year, reporting on the facts of the funds up 20% in one year?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/pensions-deliver-decade-best-growth-of-20-6-in-2019-1.4132985?mode=amp


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭dublin49


    A twelve year old article, from a time of global recession, making predictions that never came true? Is that your best?

    Why not show a more recent article, like this one from last year, reporting on the facts of the funds up 20% in one year?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/pensions-deliver-decade-best-growth-of-20-6-in-2019-1.4132985?mode=amp

    because I have personal connection with that dreadful performance so it still resonates.I am very sceptical about the investment industry and you won't change my mind and I wont change yours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    dublin49 wrote: »
    Drastic steps needed to halt collapse of pensions
    DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter

    January 04 2009 04:49 AM

    Irish workers' pensions were the worst performing funds in 2008 of any in the developed world with losses of up to 35 per cent being inflicted on some, according to new figures obtained by the Sunday Independent.

    As the country faces a major pensions crisis in 2009 with a number of high-profile company schemes expected to collapse by June, the Government looks set to have to bail out or supplement schemes that are now in deficit.

    I think this is disingenuous, this happened at a time when the financial world and every asset class was taking a hammering, so pension pots were obviously going to take a hammering as well (I presume you do understand this), some Irish pension funds fared worse than others but iirc it was an average 30% hit across the world. All of those pension funds subsequently clawed back those losses and more. At the same time many people who had bought buy to let houses to fund future pensions were actually wiped out.

    You still haven't given any example of pension funds that collapsed, I think there is a reason for that because I'm not sure those examples exist, so actual examples please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭dublin49


    I think your getting mixed up ,it was Mountai back on page 8 that suggested funds have collapsed.I am no fan of the investment community in this country but you need to contact mountai for the examples you are seeking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    dublin49 wrote: »
    because I have personal connection with that dreadful performance so it still resonates.I am very sceptical about the investment industry and you won't change my mind and I wont change yours.

    Many Irish pensions were over invested in Irish shares, and especially Irish banks at that time. That is the reason they performed so badly. I did not have my pension over exposed to Irish shares, so did not do as badly as those mentioned on that old article.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 Midlands2007


    cooperguy wrote: »
    Can you split your pot into a section enough to provide the 12k and the rest goes into an ARF. Can you account for the state pension which would give you the majority of it?

    It has to be 12k a year from a pension, so if i retire at say 64 or work part time I cannot take my lump sum and use an arf for withdrawals (say my pension is only worth 70k at age 64). Have to wait until state pension age, is this right?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    It has to be 12k a year from a pension, so if i retire at say 64 or work part time I cannot take my lump sum and use an arf for withdrawals (say my pension is only worth 70k at age 64). Have to wait until state pension age, is this right?

    You can take your lump sum, it's just that without the 12k guaranteed income you'll have to put the first 63.5k of the balance of the fund into an AMRF with a maximum withdrawal of 4%pa, and the rest (if any you have it) can go into an ARF from which you can withdrawn whatever amounts you decide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,346 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    dublin49 wrote: »
    because I have personal connection with that dreadful performance so it still resonates.I am very sceptical about the investment industry and you won't change my mind and I wont change yours.

    I've no interest in changing your mind. You're very welcome to be as sceptical as you like. The only bit that bothers me is when you try to pretend that you have some factual basis for your approach.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,138 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It has to be 12k a year from a pension, so if i retire at say 64 or work part time I cannot take my lump sum and use an arf for withdrawals (say my pension is only worth 70k at age 64). Have to wait until state pension age, is this right?

    You can take 25% do the 70k which is 28k. The rest must go into an AMRF because it is below the AMRF minimum amount. You can draw 4% off this AMRF until 75 at which stage it becomes an ARF when you can draw as much as you like off it from that on

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 23 Midlands2007


    You can take 25% do the 70k which is 28k. The rest must go into an AMRF because it is below the AMRF minimum amount. You can draw 4% off this AMRF until 75 at which stage it becomes an ARF when you can draw as much as you like off it from that on

    So 25% of 70k would actually only be 17k. Then 53k into an AMRF and draw down approx 2k a year until 75...and pay tax on it....Can you switch to an ARF at 66 say if getting state pension or just have to wait until 75 to access the balance?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,138 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    So 25% of 70k would actually only be 17k. Then 53k into an AMRF and draw down approx 2k a year until 75...and pay tax on it....Can you switch to an ARF at 66 say if getting state pension or just have to wait until 75 to access the balance?

    You have to wait until 75.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    dublin49 wrote: »
    because I have personal connection with that dreadful performance so it still resonates.I am very sceptical about the investment industry and you won't change my mind and I wont change yours.

    So what would you suggest a young person (or indeed somebody of any age) should do to ensure that they have ongoing reasonable income after they reach retirement age.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,346 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    So what would you suggest a young person (or indeed somebody of any age) should do to ensure that they have ongoing reasonable income after they reach retirement age.

    While also maximising their tax savings...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭dublin49


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    So what would you suggest a young person (or indeed somebody of any age) should do to ensure that they have ongoing reasonable income after they reach retirement age.

    I would suggest that unless you get in early into a blue Chip company with a DB Pension you are not going to provide much in the way of income for your retirement with current DC pensions.For instance somebody joining a DC pension on the average wage 20 years ago on 5% contributions will yield a derisory pension at 65.Hence my early contribution that property is a good pension provider and I acknowledged the potential Pitfalls.I have never advocated not joining pension funds,I have suggested people pay scant attention to their funds and they potentially could get a right shock at 65.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Cute Hoor


    dublin49 wrote: »
    I would suggest that unless you get in early into a blue Chip company with a DB Pension you are not going to provide much in the way of income for your retirement with current DC pensions.For instance somebody joining a DC pension on the average wage 20 years ago on 5% contributions will yield a derisory pension at 65.Hence my early contribution that property is a good pension provider and I acknowledged the potential Pitfalls.I have never advocated not joining pension funds,I have suggested people pay scant attention to their funds and they potentially could get a right shock at 65.

    So you are advocating a single asset class (with potential pitfalls as you acknowledge) with no tax saving, and borrowing to fund it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭dublin49


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    So you are advocating a single asset class (with potential pitfalls as you acknowledge) with no tax saving, and borrowing to fund it.

    retirement planning is unique to each individual or couple and their particular circumstances.I would hope my comments would help posters make the correct decisions ,and as a poster fast approaching retirement with an interest in this topic I am on here to learn as much as give my views on certain aspects.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    cooperguy wrote: »
    The main gap being if you retire at 65 and state pension doesn't kick in till 68. Does access to a lump sum cover the requirement while waiting for state pension to kick in

    A lump sum doesn't count as guaranteed income to avoid the AMRF.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    So 25% of 70k would actually only be 17k. Then 53k into an AMRF and draw down approx 2k a year until 75...and pay tax on it....Can you switch to an ARF at 66 say if getting state pension or just have to wait until 75 to access the balance?

    Whenever you meet the 12k a year guaranteed income, you can convert to an ARF


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    dublin49 wrote: »
    I would suggest that unless you get in early into a blue Chip company with a DB Pension you are not going to provide much in the way of income for your retirement with current DC pensions.For instance somebody joining a DC pension on the average wage 20 years ago on 5% contributions will yield a derisory pension at 65.Hence my early contribution that property is a good pension provider and I acknowledged the potential Pitfalls.I have never advocated not joining pension funds,I have suggested people pay scant attention to their funds and they potentially could get a right shock at 65.

    The contributions required for DB schemes are massive. I'm aware of one where the employer contribution was 31% (before they managed to close it to further service). Of course reducing the contribution to 5% will give a worse outcome. TBH, I'd expect a 31% contribution to generate a better return in a DC scheme than a DB scheme, given the freedom to take on an appropriate level of risk for the indiviu6, rather than the level appropriate for the trustees.


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The fees on pensions are pretty ****ing outrageous IMO.

    Right now with interest rates at 0% and other things bubbling everywhere I would love an option to literally just put money aside and have zero risk. I don't want anyone to manage it. I don't want any service, I just want to put the money aside.

    Standard fees seem to be 5% of contributions and 1% of total per year. Just did a little spreadsheet and assuming "low risk" returns of 3% it would take 5 years to break even on the fees. It's just another con job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,346 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Cute Hoor wrote: »
    So you are advocating a single asset class (with potential pitfalls as you acknowledge) with no tax saving, and borrowing to fund it.

    And also, an asset class that requires considerable maintenance work and expense over time. How do you put a value on your own time input to managing property investment?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,346 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The fees on pensions are pretty ****ing outrageous IMO.

    Right now with interest rates at 0% and other things bubbling everywhere I would love an option to literally just put money aside and have zero risk. I don't want anyone to manage it. I don't want any service, I just want to put the money aside.

    Standard fees seem to be 5% of contributions and 1% of total per year. Just did a little spreadsheet and assuming "low risk" returns of 3% it would take 5 years to break even on the fees. It's just another con job.

    Where did you get your 'standard fees' from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭The Mighty Quinn


    I'm actually really confused about the END of my pension.

    At present I have approx;
    • 18,000 in an Irish Life pension at work (does this mean it's occupational pension rather than a PRSA?)
    • 12,000 in an Irish Life pension I had from my time contracting, not sure what type of pension it is, but I was getting 48% tax relief on it, executive pension or something it was called, here's the plan https://www.bline.ie/sites/retail/files/bline-content/complete-solutions1-company-booklet.pdf
    • 6,000 in an New Ireland non-standard PRSA (dunno what's non-standard about it) from when I used to pay into it by direct debit

    I'm mid 30s, current pension about 35K then. Still adding to the pension at work each month, about €670 between me and employer.

    I don't understand ARFs or AMRFs and that stuff :confused:

    I really don't know how much I'll have in my pot by retirement, but assuming I just add to my current work pension at same rate, for 30 years, at 0% growth, I'd have about 250,000 in that pot. How does that work for me?

    Final salary would be - say - 60K.


  • Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭Mach 3


    The fees on pensions are pretty ****ing outrageous IMO.

    Right now with interest rates at 0% and other things bubbling everywhere I would love an option to literally just put money aside and have zero risk. I don't want anyone to manage it. I don't want any service, I just want to put the money aside.

    Standard fees seem to be 5% of contributions and 1% of total per year. Just did a little spreadsheet and assuming "low risk" returns of 3% it would take 5 years to break even on the fees. It's just another con job.

    What product is that through? Is it a PRSA?
    I wouldn't hold my breath on a response from the backslapping chums on here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭The Mighty Quinn


    Mach 3 wrote: »
    What product is that through? Is it a PRSA?
    I wouldn't hold my breath on a response from the backslapping chums on here.

    I once upon a time had a PRSA with Irish Life, 5% fees. This seemed a joke of a fee, swallowing up returns, I'd very very little in it at the time. I ended up starting a non-standard PRSA with New Ireland through a broker, I think fees are something like 0.7%, can't remember exactly but was way way lower than standard fees with Irish Life.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭domrush


    I'm actually really confused about the END of my pension.

    At present I have approx;
    • 18,000 in an Irish Life pension at work (does this mean it's occupational pension rather than a PRSA?)
    • 12,000 in an Irish Life pension I had from my time contracting, not sure what type of pension it is, but I was getting 48% tax relief on it, executive pension or something it was called, here's the plan https://www.bline.ie/sites/retail/files/bline-content/complete-solutions1-company-booklet.pdf
    • 6,000 in an New Ireland non-standard PRSA (dunno what's non-standard about it) from when I used to pay into it by direct debit

    I'm mid 30s, current pension about 35K then. Still adding to the pension at work each month, about €670 between me and employer.

    I don't understand ARFs or AMRFs and that stuff :confused:

    I really don't know how much I'll have in my pot by retirement, but assuming I just add to my current work pension at same rate, for 30 years, at 0% growth, I'd have about 250,000 in that pot. How does that work for me?

    Final salary would be - say - 60K.

    Your final salary is irrelevant, all that matters is what you’ve put in.

    If the final pot was 250k, you can take 25% of that as a tax free lump sum.

    The remainder you can invest into an annuity or an ARF.

    An annuity will pay you a guaranteed amount every year until you die based on interest rates at your time of purchase.

    An ARF means your pot stays invested in assets such as bonds, equities or cash and you draw down the balance each year. If you left it in cash it would essentially be like a deposit account for you to draw from. Any withdrawals are liable to income tax and there is a minimum withdrawal rate.

    Currently ARFs are significantly more attractive than annuities due to low interest rates.


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