Right of way question

TaurenDruid

Traffic on Memorial Road, heading southbound. "Level 5" restrictions - so, a lot of cars. Traffic stopped at the junction, as per the attached image, as the lights further on are red and there's traffic back to the far side of the junction.

Lights change to green, traffic moves away and the cars stopped behind the junction box can now clear it. Of the cars stopped behind the junction box, who has right of way to move to the yellow X?

t8010789

Green.

ThreeGreens

Purple

Darc19

Green. Same lane. For purple to get to yellow X, purple would have to move lanes.

Akesh

Green, same lane but a very poorly designed road where RoW should be clearly signed.

dobman88

Green as its the same lane, but people cut up there all the time. Mostly taxis in my experience. A completely rotten junction no matter what side you come from.

ThreeGreens

How is it the same lane for green? Both lanes merge onto a new one. Purple is ahead, so it should go first, followed by green and then orange. Otherwise there would be chaos.

If it was green, then what happens when green moves forward and the car behind takes their place? Purple and orange would never move.

I see it as purple and green move forward at the same time enter the box together and as they turn, purple is naturally on front. If green has the right of way, then purple has to wait for them to pass by before moving into the box. That's a recipe for chaos.

punisher5112

The purple car should be going to the other straight lane to its left as they changed this layout a while back, the lanes are set to allow for the bus only turn right lane.

It makes a mess of it to be honest.

If unsure just merge safely 1 in next 1 in and so on.

dobman88

ThreeGreens wrote: »

How is it the same lane for green? Both lanes merge onto a new one. Purple is ahead, so it should go first, followed by green and then orange. Otherwise there would be chaos.

If it was green, then what happens when green moves forward and the car behind takes their place? Purple and orange would never move.

I see it as purple and green move forward at the same time enter the box together and as they turn, purple is naturally on front. If green has the right of way, then purple has to wait for them to pass by before moving into the box. That's a recipe for chaos.

Bus lane from Amiens St is ending at the yellow box. Green is going for the yellow X, purple is going for the lane that's got the straight ahead/left arrow on it.

It's pretty simple really but as your post proves, its fairly chaotic to drive on.

Darc19

ThreeGreens wrote: »

How is it the same lane for green? Both lanes merge onto a new one. Purple is ahead, so it should go first, followed by green and then orange. Otherwise there would be chaos.

If it was green, then what happens when green moves forward and the car behind takes their place? Purple and orange would never move.

I see it as purple and green move forward at the same time enter the box together and as they turn, purple is naturally on front. If green has the right of way, then purple has to wait for them to pass by before moving into the box. That's a recipe for chaos.

Two lanes on the approach and two lanes on the road they are approaching.

You stay in the lane you are in on both roads.

Basic driving manners

punisher5112

All vehicles usethe bus lane closest to the IFSC buildings when they shouldn't be in it, it makes driving a bus through there extremely difficult.

The driving manners is at an all time low.
Very aggressive driving and many just cutting others up.

TaurenDruid

Darc19 wrote: »

Two lanes on the approach and two lanes on the road they are approaching.

You stay in the lane you are in on both roads.

Basic driving manners

This is what I would have thought.

punisher5112 wrote: »

All vehicles usethe bus lane closest to the IFSC buildings when they shouldn't be in it, it makes driving a bus through there extremely difficult.

The driving manners is at an all time low.
Very aggressive driving and many just cutting others up.

And this is what happened me today.

I was green car and headed for the yellow X. Purple car kept to its lane (the left lane with the straight-on and left-turn arrows. Orange car thinks I've cut him up and starts blasting the horn, giving me the finger, and when he eventually overtakes me (on Lombard Street East) he's still raging and shaking his fist at me.

But, like, there's literally nothing else legal for me to do there - can't enter the bus lane, the rightmost lane prior to the junction box leads directly to the rightmost legal lane after the junction box, the one with the yellow X.

The road layout there looks ****e when you're driving it, but it's even worse when you look at the aerial view. No idea what they (who - DCC? the NTA?) were thinking!

ThreeGreens

Darc19 wrote: »

Two lanes on the approach and two lanes on the road they are approaching.

You stay in the lane you are in on both roads.

Basic driving manners

Having looked on google Street view I now know the junction being discussed. From the initial screenshot I somehow pictured a smaller road joining a larger road with traffic looking for a gap to join.

You are dead right in this case. I was wrong. There is no priority. Each stick to their own lane.

punisher5112

TaurenDruid wrote: »

This is what I would have thought.



And this is what happened me today.

I was green car and headed for the yellow X. Purple car kept to its lane (the left lane with the straight-on and left-turn arrows. Orange car thinks I've cut him up and starts blasting the horn, giving me the finger, and when he eventually overtakes me (on Lombard Street East) he's still raging and shaking his fist at me.

But, like, there's literally nothing else legal for me to do there - can't enter the bus lane, the rightmost lane prior to the junction box leads directly to the rightmost legal lane after the junction box, the one with the yellow X.

The road layout there looks ****e when you're driving it, but it's even worse when you look at the aerial view. No idea what they (who - DCC? the NTA?) were thinking!

It's all down to traffic calming, cycle infrastructure.

The lanes are made smaller, turns which a vehicle such as a bus could navigate quite safely no longer can....

Don't worry about that tool, there plenty out there.

I would suggest a dash cam if you don't have, it's worth its weight in gold and some....

The bus lane which is right turn it for buses is 24hr but the one at IFSC side isn't.

Citrus_8

Bus priority traffic light and junction road markings with guiding lines would help. But in Ireland yellow boxes are more common instead. I'd think that guiding lines (as in the attached image) should be preferred as they help more in regards to such situations and also safety wise. Yellow boxes aren't necessary as blocking junctions is already illegal based on the Rules of the Road and this is just for a better traffic flow. Strange decision to design junctions in the way that traffic flow is more important than avoid confusing situations and support road safety.

burkey2k0

Green

punisher5112

Oh to top it off on that road the lights go red but cars are waiting to clear box, you really need to be watching all sides, front and rear....

Citrus_8

If OP won't mind, I have another related question.

Clonsilla Roundabout going from Corduff straight towards South (Luttrellstown).
A roundabout has no clearly marked lanes. Based on the road width, even though two cars could fit, there seems to be only one lane in the roundabout. In practise often drivers enter the roundabout from both lanes same time and end up not sharing the roundabout space properly. Furthermore, there're no narrows on the road before entering the roundabout - guiding which lane can be used for which exit. It means default rules apply in this roundabout: first lane to left and straight (1st & 2nd exits) while second lane to straight and right (2nd, 3rd and 4th (U-turn) exits). Before entering a roundabout, there're two lanes, while exiting on the 2nd exit, there's only one lane. Who has the right to exit the roundabout on the 2nd exit and who should yield?

It wouldn't be a huge problem if traffic is low but during peak times it can be problematic, dangerous, frustrating and all this could be avoided by simply putting proper signage AND road markings. In this case best would be use 1st lane to the left only and 2nd lane to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th exits. I've noticed that in Ireland this lack of signage and poor (I should say outdated) roads', junctions' and roundabouts' design is very common and seems to be extremely ignored.

punisher5112

Citrus_8 wrote: »

If OP won't mind, I have another related question.

Clonsilla Roundabout going from Corduff straight towards South (Luttrellstown).
A roundabout has no clearly marked lanes. Based on the road width, even though two cars could fit, there seems to be only one lane in the roundabout. In practise often drivers enter the roundabout from both lanes same time and end up not sharing the roundabout space properly. Furthermore, there're no narrows on the road before entering the roundabout - guiding which lane can be used for which exit. It means default rules apply in this roundabout: first lane to left and straight (1st & 2nd exits) while second lane to straight and right (2nd, 3rd and 4th (U-turn) exits). Before entering a roundabout, there're two lanes, while exiting on the 2nd exit, there's only one lane. Who has the right to exit the roundabout on the 2nd exit and who should yield?

It wouldn't be a huge problem if traffic is low but during peak times it can be problematic, dangerous, frustrating and all this could be avoided by simply putting proper signage AND road markings. In this case best would be use 1st lane to the left only and 2nd lane to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th exits. I've noticed that in Ireland this lack of signage and poor (I should say outdated) roads', junctions' and roundabouts' design is very common and seems to be extremely ignored.

So what goes here is default....

Left lane is for 1st and 2nd exit, and anything past 12 o'clock is lane 2 so 3rd or 4th.

punisher5112

Citrus_8 wrote: »

That wasn't my question I asked who has the right to exit the roundabout if cars from 1st and 2nd lane enter the roundabout at the same time and leave the roundabout at the same time, but past roundabout there's only 1 lane while there're 2 lanes entering the roundabout. It means that one of the drivers need to yield while exiting. Who has the right to go and who should yield?

The left lane would as they are in correct lane unless signed or painted otherwise.

Citrus_8

punisher5112 wrote: »

The left lane would as they are in correct lane unless signed or painted otherwise.

Yeah, got that now. Sorry, I just needed to read your answer again to pick up the idea It's pity there are so many drivers who don't consider this and just assuming that if there're two lanes to enter a roundabout, there will also be 2 lanes past a roundabout which suggests that a 2nd lane can also be used for 2nd exit. But that's not the case in this example due to less lanes after the roundabout... Personally to me it's confusing as the lack of signage doesn't give me a comfort of knowing what to expect, how to plan and react accordingly way in advance.

TaurenDruid

Yeah, left lane there has priority for 2nd exit, but definitely an accident waiting to happen if people aren't familiar with the layout, that could be easily solved with signage/markings. I mean, proper arrows are so uncommon in Dublin, when I've been driving around the likes of Killarney and Galway the lane markings at roundabouts have really stood out to me.

Patrick2010

For Amiens street it has to be green car but you can see from street view that cars in the purple cars lane will go straight for the yellow x as traffic in the bus lane will stop them entering the left lane ahead.

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Amiens+St+%26+Memorial+Rd,+North+Dock,+Dublin/@53.3491502,-6.251577,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh7L8Xr9el5l5_-0V7BQXIw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x48670e8f021bdecb:0x11177b4bab2a1b10!8m2!3d53.3490204!4d-6.2516227

TaurenDruid

Patrick2010 wrote: »

For Amiens street it has to be green car but you can see from street view that cars in the purple cars lane will go straight for the yellow x as traffic in the bus lane will stop them entering the left lane ahead.

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Amiens+St+%26+Memorial+Rd,+North+Dock,+Dublin/@53.3491502,-6.251577,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh7L8Xr9el5l5_-0V7BQXIw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x48670e8f021bdecb:0x11177b4bab2a1b10!8m2!3d53.3490204!4d-6.2516227

The bus lane ends at the start of the yellow box; there is an available lane for cars in the purple car's lane to advance in to.

Patrick2010

TaurenDruid wrote: »

The bus lane ends at the start of the yellow box; there is an available lane for cars in the purple car's lane to advance in to.

Purple car is then competing with traffic in the bus lane to its left for that lane, who has right of way there?

It could be argued that as there are 3 lanes on each side of the yellow cars should stay in their lane meaning green car going into the far bus lane.

If not then you've got 3 lanes competing for two lanes.

TaurenDruid

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Purple car is then competing with traffic in the bus lane to its left for that lane, who has right of way there?

It could be argued that as there are 3 lanes on each side of the yellow cars should stay in their lane meaning green car going into the far bus lane.

If not then you've got 3 lanes competing for two lanes.

Yep. And the last thing you want in a road design is people arguing over what should be really, really obvious.

Spook_ie

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Purple car is then competing with traffic in the bus lane to its left for that lane, who has right of way there?

It could be argued that as there are 3 lanes on each side of the yellow cars should stay in their lane meaning green car going into the far bus lane.

If not then you've got 3 lanes competing for two lanes.

The bus lane has a yield line across it

Billgirlylegs

TaurenDruid wrote: »

Traffic on Memorial Road, heading southbound. "Level 5" restrictions - so, a lot of cars. Traffic stopped at the junction, as per the attached image, as the lights further on are red and there's traffic back to the far side of the junction.

Lights change to green, traffic moves away and the cars stopped behind the junction box can now clear it. Of the cars stopped behind the junction box, who has right of way to move to the yellow X?

It's not the orange car anyway.:)
Green (right lane to right lane)
Purple (left lane to left lane ) - orange follows, or yields to green car if he wants to travel in right lane
When / If there is a bus in the bus lane - it yields to purple ( or yields to green car if he wants to travel in right lane)

Logical.
Simple.

It's a terrible layout, in fairness. Par for the course around that neck of the woods though. The lane markings around the city centre are absolutely atrocious, for the most part. I actually have been meaning to ask what others think of the junction beside Busáras/Customs House when heading Northbound, as the amount of near-misses I've seen here is staggering.





So, 3 lanes (ABC) turns into into 4 (1234) when you get around the corner.

To my mind:
A = 1
B = 2 OR 3
C = 4

The amount of times I've seen A going into 2 or 3 is ridiculous.
Or C going into 2 is another mad move. I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts and opinions, though.

Citrus_8

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a terrible layout, in fairness. Par for the course around that neck of the woods though. The lane markings around the city centre are absolutely atrocious, for the most part. I actually have been meaning to ask what others think of the junction beside Busáras/Customs House when heading Northbound, as the amount of near-misses I've seen here is staggering.



So, 3 lanes (ABC) turns into into 4 (1234) when you get around the corner.

To my mind:
A = 1
B = 2 OR 3
C = 4

The amount of times I've seen A going into 2 or 3 is ridiculous.
Or C going into 2 is another mad move. I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts and opinions, though.

Great example of lack of signage or poor signage in Dublin, and also drivers' whether ignorance, lack of driving experience or lack of logical thinking before they make a maneuver. Plenty of examples such this in Dublin and across Ireland.

TaurenDruid

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a terrible layout, in fairness. Par for the course around that neck of the woods though. The lane markings around the city centre are absolutely atrocious, for the most part. I actually have been meaning to ask what others think of the junction beside Busáras/Customs House when heading Northbound, as the amount of near-misses I've seen here is staggering.


So, 3 lanes (ABC) turns into into 4 (1234) when you get around the corner.

To my mind:
A = 1
B = 2 OR 3
C = 4

The amount of times I've seen A going into 2 or 3 is ridiculous.
Or C going into 2 is another mad move. I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts and opinions, though.

After negotiating the southbound trip each morning (where it seems the vast majority of cars in the 'purple' lane think they have right of way into the right-most lane), I have to cope with this on the way home

The problems actually start back on Pearse Street/Tara Street, where two lanes become four, but one of them is right turn only. They become two lanes again as you cross the Liffey and stay right for Amiens Street. Then, under the railway bridge, they turn into your A, B, C as above. I now always take the rightmost lane, and stay in B as the extra lane C comes into existence on my right, and, to be safe, indicate left as I approach the second junction.

With current low traffic volumes, it's not too bad once you're assertive and aware of your surroundings. I found it a lot worse on the rare occasions I drove that way in BC rush hours.

I'm in the same boat. I've only ever driven across from the Southside heading that direction since Covid. It's still an absolute clusterf***. A bit of paint on the road would go a long way. There's actually no need for three lanes, really. If they redesigned it into two from back at Liberty Hall as you've pointed out, it would sort out all the messing. Don't know how many times I've watched frustrated people giving out yards there.

Edit: I forgot to include in the previous post, that 90% of traffic in A, B and C are trying to get into Lane 2. Sometimes you've all three lanes/cars trying to squeeze into it.