Norma Foley has to go [MOD WARNING IN 1ST POST]

Smacruairi

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

Why has she not been replaced? Has there ever been a minister who has been repeatedly making a bags of this and lasted this long? Like the dept of health is bad, but this is on another level it seems, particularly around communication. Do FF realise that their most public ministers are Donnelly and Foley, who surely have approvement ratings in the single digits, while FG have paschal and Coveney who are quietly keeping things moving along?

Is there a plan, even a political one?!


Mod: We're not going to have another iteration of the "Schools closed thread', with teacher bashing and histrionics couched as 'opinion'. Any posting that strays into that territory will be met with a card and immediate threadban.

Wanderer2010

Useless tool but....shes up against the might of a public service union, with all the resistance and red tape which that entails.

Im not sure anyone else could do much better.

Smacruairi

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Useless tool but....shes up against the might of a public service union, with all the resistance and red tape which that entails.

Im not sure anyone else could do much better.

Ah it's a cop out to blame public service, unions and all the other bogeymen. They invented a ministry for Harris and he immediately magiced up extra places in University as far as I can remember. Pup came in overnight, no redtape there.

The level of kite flying is unparalleled with her and her cronies it seems though.

Cee-Jay-Cee

She is a first time TD and was catapulted into a ministerial position purely to make up gender quota figures. She’s completely incompetent and way in over her head and I’d say (and hope) will not last the distance and will hopefully be sacked.

A lot of teachers thought when she was made minister for Ed that she would at least understand their position being a teacher herself however she completely fcuked that up for herself when turned against them over the last few months and I’d imagine not many schools would want her anywhere near them if she tries to go back to teaching once FF realise how utterly useless she actually is.

I dislike plenty of politicians but she’s on a different level completely. She’s ignorant and condescending and clearly not that intelligent either. She pushed her ‘schools are safe’ nonsense and was still trying to push the same line in the new year when the reopening was delayed until the 11th January. Numbers were through the roof, the new highly transmissible variant was the dominant virus but because she was told schools were safe (which they relatively were when numbers were very low) she couldn’t see further than that despite NPHET saying different.

She will go down as the most utterly incompetent TD/Minister ever.

LasersGoPewPew

Smacruairi wrote: »

Ah it's a cop out to blame public service, unions and all the other bogeymen. They invented a ministry for Harris and he immediately magiced up extra places in University as far as I can remember. Pup came in overnight, no redtape there.

The level of kite flying is unparalleled with her and her cronies it seems though.

Would you care to enlighten us as to how you would sort this mess? The unions are holding children's education to ransom. It doesn't matter who's in the minister's position, they will still get shat on by the laypeople for supposedly mishandling the situation or not doing enough to kiss the union's ass.

For Forks Sake

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

She will go down as the most utterly incompetent TD/Minister ever.

Shane Ross would like a word

freshpopcorn

Firstly to a hairdressers!

freshpopcorn

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Firstly to a hairdressers!

Don't you know they're all closed. A pot is the best they can do in kilflynn.

freshpopcorn

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Don't you know they're all closed. A pot is the best they can do in kilflynn.

Altight, Michael Healy might offer her a hat then!

banie01

She is a clown, she is making a nonsense of any orderly return to school.
The limbo of exam year students is torture IMO.

The excuse can be made that she is a 1st time TD however, her delay in planing, in planning any alternatives, any mitigation and then constantly parroting a line that the plan is imminent?
It's outright incompetence, and deserves more censure than just a demotion.

When the next GE comes, she can hardly stand on her record.

freshpopcorn

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Altight, Michael Healy might offer her a hat then!

Would that be an essential journey:)

Irishphotodesk

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

She is a first time TD and was catapulted into a ministerial position purely to make up gender quota figures. She’s completely incompetent and way in over her head and I’d say (and hope) will not last the distance and will hopefully be sacked.

A lot of teachers thought when she was made minister for Ed that she would at least understand their position being a teacher herself however she completely fcuked that up for herself when turned against them over the last few months and I’d imagine not many schools would want her anywhere near them if she tries to go back to teaching once FF realise how utterly useless she actually is.

I dislike plenty of politicians but she’s on a different level completely. She’s ignorant and condescending and clearly not that intelligent either. She pushed her ‘schools are safe’ nonsense and was still trying to push the same line in the new year when the reopening was delayed until the 11th January. Numbers were through the roof, the new highly transmissible variant was the dominant virus but because she was told schools were safe (which they relatively were when numbers were very low) she couldn’t see further than that despite NPHET saying different.

She will go down as the most utterly incompetent TD/Minister ever.

not sure you are aware of this but most teachers that leave the profession to become a politician has their job kept for them to return to (assuming they were in a permanent role prior to their running for election), a temporary role/substitute role is made for the person that fills the politicians teacher role.

or maybe I'm wrong and they stopped doing that - it certainly was this way when I last cared about politicians and where they came from.

EDIT: for anyone having a go at her for incompetencies .... a politician is surrounded by advisors/civil servants feeding them information and telling them the best course of action to take - politicians are no more than an extremely well paid mouthpiece who won a popularity contest.

P2C

She should be sacked for not having a plan B. The idea that they only got around to talking about a contingency when the **** hit the fan is mind boggling

enricoh

The creches are working away no bother, that's because the unions don't run the show there. I wish her luck, the unions should have been told long ago to strike away. They even rejected the new public service wage increases last week as not good enough!

Ish66

No, Unions have to go, End Of

Wanderer2010

Id love to hear how some people would propose solving the issue with the unions holding education to ransom? Easy to say shes this and shes that but does anyone actually have a viable alternative around opening schools that wouldnt involve these powerful unions?

dirkmeister

enricoh wrote: »

The creches are working away no bother, that's because the unions don't run the show there. I wish her luck, the unions should have been told long ago to strike away. They even rejected the new public service wage increases last week as not good enough!

The INTO accepted the pay proposals?

Fann Linn

Ish66 wrote: »

No, Unions have to go, End Of

Well that ain't gonna happen.

kona

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Id love to hear how some people would propose solving the issue with the unions holding education to ransom? Easy to say shes this and shes that but does anyone actually have a viable alternative around opening schools that wouldnt involve these powerful unions?

A few months ago would have been a good excuse/time for a lockout.

enricoh

Here's a 41year old primary school teacher on 52k a year, and they're still crying about pay and rejecting new pay increases. Cry me a river, with half a million people out of work at the mo! Let them strike away for more n ignore them.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/money-diaries-21-5350675-Feb2021/

enricoh

dirkmeister wrote: »

The INTO accepted the pay proposals?

True that, the asti didn't, absolute whingers.

What's the consensus, are unions a good are bad thing?

They seem to be the cause of all our public service woes.

Irishphotodesk

enricoh wrote: »

Here's a 41year old primary school teacher on 52k a year, and they're still crying about pay and rejecting new pay increases. Cry me a river, with half a million people out of work at the mo! Let them strike away for more n ignore them.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/money-diaries-21-5350675-Feb2021/

I'm sure you mean half a million people with fresh experience in schooling kids.

kona

Kinley Nutritious Matte wrote: »

What's the consensus, are unions a good are bad thing?

They seem to be the cause of all our public service woes.

Unions are useless in private sector and a nuisance in public sector , that's just my own personal experience of them.
No doubt they did great work decades ago.

Yurt2

Unions or no unions, the ASTI have long been recognized as being occupied by people on the loopier end of the spectrum at the executive level. The other education unions are fine. I'm glad our teachers have good conditions unlike some parts of the US where they are treated like dirt and have to take second jobs to make rent. Teachers are nation builders and often function as surrogate social workers, mopping up the social problems that government preside over.

That being said, Foley's handling of the Leaving Cert and the covid situation has been abominable. Let's be honest, she's clueless in her role. First-time TD in cabinet and dynasty politician (father was one of the FF crowd with an Ansbacher account). We all know how this works out.

James Brown

LasersGoPewPew wrote: »

Would you care to enlighten us as to how you would sort this mess? The unions are holding children's education to ransom. It doesn't matter who's in the minister's position, they will still get shat on by the laypeople for supposedly mishandling the situation or not doing enough to kiss the union's ass.

Ah, it's like health so. Can't be tackled, best left as is. Don't want to disturb things...so why do we bother with ministers at all?

ruwithme

She's fianna fail,what else would we expect. Suppose our so called opposition party's don't look like much good either.

Her party leader allowing her to drown all the while says it all really about them.

God help us with them.

James Brown

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Id love to hear how some people would propose solving the issue with the unions holding education to ransom? Easy to say shes this and shes that but does anyone actually have a viable alternative around opening schools that wouldnt involve these powerful unions?

If a mechanic makes a balls of your car do you bring it back to him because you're not a mechanic?

James Brown

Kinley Nutritious Matte wrote: »

What's the consensus, are unions a good are bad thing?

They seem to be the cause of all our public service woes.

Unions are member driven whose remit is to look after it's membership.
They don't and shouldn't give two ****s about anything outside of looking after their membership.
Unions are necessary.

Irishphotodesk

James Brown wrote: »

If a mechanic makes a balls of your car do you bring it back to him because you're not a mechanic?

if all the mechanics worked for the same company - would you trust the company ?

Fann Linn

James Brown wrote: »

Unions are member driven whose remit is to look after it's membership.
They don't and shouldn't give two ****s about anything outside of looking after their membership.
Unions are necessary.

So many people cannot grasp that fact.

JasonStatham

Smacruairi wrote: »

After yet another few days of leaks about the reopening of schools, it transpires that she again hadn't informed her cabinet colleagues.

Why has she not been replaced? Has there ever been a minister who has been repeatedly making a bags of this and lasted this long? Like the dept of health is bad, but this is on another level it seems, particularly around communication. Do FF realise that their most public ministers are Donnelly and Foley, who surely have approvement ratings in the single digits, while FG have paschal and Coveney who are quietly keeping things moving along?

Is there a plan, even a political one?!

The media won't hammer her cos she's a woman. If it was a bloke, they'd have the knives out.

hamburgham

James Brown wrote: »

Unions are member driven whose remit is to look after it's membership.
They don't and shouldn't give two ****s about anything outside of looking after their membership.
Unions are necessary.

And the government’s remit is to act in the best interests of the rest of us and not to continually give in to these bully boys. I think the government would have huge support if they finally now found the bxxls to stand up to them.

Larsso30

Norma is useless agreed, but unions and their resistance to everything shouldn't be forgotten or taken lightly.

Smacruairi

Again people get obsessed with unions, Jesus its the "bankers" of our time.

This is minister who has had A YEAR to plan any form of plan b, amd failed, despite having unions offer suggestions, parent's bodies even the student's platforms. She did nothing. She insisted that schools are safe when we had the highest levels of Covid in the world. The world like. Jesus!

Her communication style is atrocious, and the first thing she when she took office was not to announce covid planning, buy to look after a school in kerry with developments.

Again, why are people complicit in giving her a pass?

sdanseo

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

She is a first time TD and was catapulted into a ministerial position purely to make up gender quota figures. She’s completely incompetent and way in over her head and I’d say (and hope) will not last the distance and will hopefully be sacked.

A lot of teachers thought when she was made minister for Ed that she would at least understand their position being a teacher herself however she completely fcuked that up for herself when turned against them over the last few months and I’d imagine not many schools would want her anywhere near them if she tries to go back to teaching once FF realise how utterly useless she actually is.

I dislike plenty of politicians but she’s on a different level completely. She’s ignorant and condescending and clearly not that intelligent either. She pushed her ‘schools are safe’ nonsense and was still trying to push the same line in the new year when the reopening was delayed until the 11th January. Numbers were through the roof, the new highly transmissible variant was the dominant virus but because she was told schools were safe (which they relatively were when numbers were very low) she couldn’t see further than that despite NPHET saying different.

She will go down as the most utterly incompetent TD/Minister ever.

That's a big claim and very hard to prove. We can only suspect you are correct.

If so, this is why gender quotas are fundamentally unfair and not the solution to not having enough women in politics. Not only do they potentially deprive more qualified male candidates of the chance to run for election under a party ticket, they are now depriving the country of good governance.

To be abundantly clear: no woman should ever be passed over for a job because a less qualified man is the more appealing or seemingly more senior or entitled.

The same applies in reverse. The best candidate for the job should get the job, regardless if they are male, female, black, white or any other label.

James Brown

hamburgham wrote: »

And the government’s remit is to act in the best interests of the rest of us and not to continually give in to these bully boys. I think the government would have huge support if they finally now found the bxxls to stand up to them.

They'll happily blame the unions though.
Look at the caliber of public representative you have in FF/FG. They only get clever when rinsing the tax payer for private profit/looking after their own or making excuses.
Only the unions will look out for the workers. We've seen FF/FG don't respect anything outside of self interest.
Look at health, unions supposedly too.
What about Irish Water? FG/Lab created it from scratch. What did we get? A sweet deal at a loss to the tax payer, still under investigation. Jobs for the boys on the board. Laughing yoga and solid must be paid no matter what bonuses. That wasn't unions, that was FG/Lab.
So forgive me if I'm suspicious it might be down to decades of FF/FG has us where we are.

She is absolutely abysmal. Not a solitary redeeming feature.

People whinge about the unions, but if it wasn't for them, the schools would have reopened and we'd be a lot deeper into the ha'penny place.

Smee_Again

enricoh wrote: »

Here's a 41year old primary school teacher on 52k a year, and they're still crying about pay and rejecting new pay increases. Cry me a river, with half a million people out of work at the mo! Let them strike away for more n ignore them.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/money-diaries-21-5350675-Feb2021/

€52K a year isn’t that much for a university graduate with 10+ years experience.

It just sounds like a lot to the unskilled and/or uneducated.

hamburgham

James Brown wrote: »

They'll happily blame the unions though.
Look at the caliber of public representative you have in FF/FG. They only get clever when rinsing the tax payer for private profit/looking after their own or making excuses.

I’m looking at the calibre of TDs, dismal, and what am I seeing, lots and lots of teachers, what does that tell you.

Parents want their kids back at school. The govt should announce that the schools are reopening on 1 March and any teacher who doesn’t show up goes on PUP. End of.

Gatling

She absolutely has to go ,

As another poster said she had no plan A, B,C,D,E,F her big Children with needs take priority speeches didn't help either I'm a parent of a child with needs who's gone through hell the last two lock downs ,and this I'm opening the schools on this date ,then that date ,to schools are safe with only 246 cases reported in schools,then it was 40% of all schools have had positive cases then she claims 70% of schools have had zero contact to public health showing there is little or no covid in schools,
Which one was it Norma 40% of schools had cases or 70% had no cases because your maths do not add up ,
Where was the supports for children with extra needs or learning disabilities what some got Chrome books and little else others got nothing,
The unions I don't agree with but she leads the department and yet had zero control over anything except getting into a wars of words saying she had met with various parties even Leo could only go with if she claimed she met with stakeholders we can only go by what she said ,
And not all children with needs are in asd units or special schools but left them out of the equations.

Zero time or respect for her

hamburgham

Smee_Again wrote: »

€52K a year isn’t that much for a university graduate with 10+ years experience.

It just sounds like a lot to the unskilled and/or uneducated.

Not comparable. Gross it up for a 9-5 job with 4 weeks holiday a year.

And by the way, I’ve seen PhDs on less than that.

Larbre34

She does. Absolutely terrible Minister. However its not all her fault.

What this situation is, is a disgusting indictment of the needs of satisfying party geography over competence and the national interest.

Norma Foley was appointed to a senior cabinet ministry within her first term as a TD. A massively important department at the best of times and even more so in times of crisis such as these. She was never going to be competent and was effectively set up to fail. Thats Micheál Martin's fault.

brookers

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

She is a first time TD and was catapulted into a ministerial position purely to make up gender quota figures. She’s completely incompetent and way in over her head and I’d say (and hope) will not last the distance and will hopefully be sacked.

A lot of teachers thought when she was made minister for Ed that she would at least understand their position being a teacher herself however she completely fcuked that up for herself when turned against them over the last few months and I’d imagine not many schools would want her anywhere near them if she tries to go back to teaching once FF realise how utterly useless she actually is.

I dislike plenty of politicians but she’s on a different level completely. She’s ignorant and condescending and clearly not that intelligent either. She pushed her ‘schools are safe’ nonsense and was still trying to push the same line in the new year when the reopening was delayed until the 11th January. Numbers were through the roof, the new highly transmissible variant was the dominant virus but because she was told schools were safe (which they relatively were when numbers were very low) she couldn’t see further than that despite NPHET saying different.

She will go down as the most utterly incompetent TD/Minister ever.

*Mod snip - comments on a person's appearance are not acceptable*

Smee_Again

hamburgham wrote: »

Not comparable. Gross it up for a 9-5 job with 4 weeks holiday a year.

And by the way, I’ve seen PhDs on less than that.

Of course it’s comparable.

But like I said if someone is uneducated or unskilled it seems like a lot. Anyone who has spent a few years getting qualified will appreciate it for the decent but not particularly high salary that it is.

byhookorbycrook

Larsso30 wrote: »

Norma is useless agreed, but unions and their resistance to everything shouldn't be forgotten or taken lightly.

Resistance to everything?You do know that unions are made up of members, right? And that we publicly begged for a " plan" for reopening schools after the summer from May? (Check #edhatie if you don't believe me ) We were 10 weeks into lock down before the DES sent out guidelines and those were mainly about how to complain about schools.



We presumed a standard national platform would be in place for this school year, we presumed wrongly. Likewise to training. Both the platforms and training were left to school staff in their own time and at their own expense. Even the money promised to schools for devices for children to work remotely, tiny as it was, was actually from monies already allocated to schools. But we trained, we got plans in place- despite secondary schools getting guidance in December)



Instead of a plan for September , two weeks before schools were to reopen we got a "document" that ignored basic science, said " sort it out yourselves" and saw every member of the school community (and shock, horror, more than teachers work in schools and parents are members of our communities too) roll up their collective sleeves in those much vaunted "holidays" to order masks, hand san. etc. etc. physically haul desks and other furniture around the place, plot staggered starts, breaks and school dismissals all of which meant longer unpaid work for everyone , reassure children and still make school were as normal as possible for our students.



DES staff like those of NEPS/ NCSE and the inspectorate refused and continue to refuse to spend time in any classroom and the Dáil continues to refuse to sit in a large chamber with masks and bills the Irish tax payer for eye-watering amounts for the convention centre


We were denied the testing in other workplaces and even the very definition of close contacts. The hand san. we were told to buy was deemed unsafe, the DES knew but tried to bury the information over midterm, meaning schools once more had to scramble to try and source a safe brand at a few days' notice. The PPE budget was cut by 40% after Christmas.





No other work place has been told to ignore public health advice. School staff have been told to completely ignore advice on masks (told visors "could" be used, if needed and still peddling that fallacy ,PPE) hand washing social distancing, adequate ventilation, numbers in a room and the duration of the 30 or people in that room, whilst the Ministers in charge, good old Norma and Jospeha parroted the "schools are safe" narrative, even as community transmission rocketed.



The shambolic webinar where comments/questions was turned off only failed because the overflow on Youtube was allowed to comment and parents, SNAS and other could also comment as the webinar asserted that we all agreed schools were 100% safe. Only that someone recorded those comments and RTE's Emma O'Kelly had the courage to pick up on and report those comments, how many ill/dead students (if you don't care about teachers/SNAS/bus drivers etc. )never mind vulnerable parents/ family members would we have had in January. Now the DES is refusing any further webinars and the INTO who like to be the teacher's pets have chastised us for our views as a result.


Norma and Josepha were embarrassing in their rush to be first to the media (egged on by Simon Harris' brother, whose own autism charity is refusing any and all face to face contact)Josepha , as Minister with responsibility for inclusion has had to apologize twice in 6 weeks for comparing the delay in schools reopening to the Mother and Babies scandal and also for referring to " normal" children vs those who need additional supports. Hell, An Taoseach asked them both to keep off media, but they just can't.

byhookorbycrook

hamburgham wrote: »

I’m looking at the calibre of TDs, dismal, and what am I seeing, lots and lots of teachers, what does that tell you.

Parents want their kids back at school. The govt should announce that the schools are reopening on 1 March and any teacher who doesn’t show up goes on PUP. End of.

Actually, many don't, though it doesn't suit your narrative. Does you apply your PUP stick to SNAs/Bus drivers/escorts/cleaners/secretaries? And what about vulnerable children/families?

hamburgham

Smee_Again wrote: »

Of course it’s comparable.

But like I said if someone is uneducated or unskilled it seems like a lot. Anyone who has spent a few years getting qualified will appreciate it for the decent but not particularly high salary that it is.

A 5 1/2 hour working day to say nothing of finishing even earlier if you’re teaching infants.

183 days a year, say 37 weeks. Gross up the 52k to a normal 48 working weeks and it’s 67.5k equivalent and that’s before any adjustment for the short working week.

And yeah I’ve heard all about the prep. No one else has ever to do prep for their job only teachers.

Gatling

^^ this exactly ^^ byhookorbycrook
I believe coming from an educator ,were all beyond frustrated and not just parents but teacher's SNA , drivers , cleaners external supports,all they got was put them on pup and put manners on them

byhookorbycrook

hamburgham wrote: »

A 5 1/2 hour working day to say nothing of finishing even earlier if you’re teaching infants.

183 days a year, say 37 weeks. Gross up the 52k to a normal 48 working weeks and it’s 67.5k equivalent and that’s before any adjustment for the short working week.

And yeah I’ve heard all about the prep. No one else has ever to do prep for their job only teachers.

Take it from me, it's a lot easier to teach face to face than remotely. And that's before corrections.

Smee_Again

hamburgham wrote: »

A 5 1/2 hour working day to say nothing of finishing even earlier if you’re teaching infants.

183 days a year, say 37 weeks. Gross up the 52k to a normal 48 working weeks and it’s 67.5k equivalent and that’s before any adjustment for the short working week.

And yeah I’ve heard all about the prep. No one else has ever to do prep for their job only teachers.

Kind of proving my point here lad.