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Irish Rugby to-do list if we want to be in the mix in 2023

  • 15-02-2021 6:04pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭ alanb92


    I don't intend this to come across as a knee-jerk reactionary post in the face of 2 defeats from 2 in the 6N, but I've felt the below points have needed to be sorted for a long time now for the good of Irish rugby in the long run.

    1) Better Player Management / Inter-Provincial Transfers
    It doesn't reflect overly well on the IRFU's interprovincial transfer system that the usual starting out-half's for the provinces are: Ulster: Billy Burns/Ian Madigan; Connacht: Jack Carty/Conor Fitzgerald; Leinster: Ross Byrne and Munster: JJ Hanrahan.
    None of the above players have what it takes to be Ireland's long-term 10 (imo) yet are blocking the pathway for 5-6 players who do have that potential.

    Ulster: Bill Johnston (a player who I would have regarded to have the requisite long term potential to be Irish 10) is 3rd choice at Ulster and has barely gotten a sniff since his move from Munster. Mike Lowry, who many view as a more natural 10 than 15, has played precious little at 10 either.

    Munster: Hanrahan is playing ahead of Crowley, Healy and Flannery. Carbery due back soon too. Something has got to give..

    Leinster: Less of an issue in that Ross was seen as one that could develop into a test quality 10 but it hasn't happened for him yet. Harry will be 1st choice from next season I'd imagine. Frawley will likely settle and be most effective at 12. Charlie Tector a huge talent too but he is a few years away yet.

    Connacht: Neither Carty nor Fitzgerald have what it takes at International level (again an opinion), therefore Connacht present an obvious destination for one or two of the current young Munster 10's.

    With all of that in mind, if I was Nucifora I would be looking to engineer a situation whereby one/or two of Ben Healy, Jake Flannery and Bill Johnston move to Connacht. I would open the door for Carty and Conor Fitz to move abroad (I appreciate these things sound a lot more straightforward in theory).
    I would be just as open to JJ and Madigan moving abroad also. If something along the lines of the above happened the following 10 options at the clubs would look something like:
    Ulster: Burns, Lowry, Johnston(?)
    Connacht: Healy, Johnston(?), Flannery (also a good 15 option)
    Munster: Carbery, Crowley
    Leinster: H Byrne, R Byrne, Frawley

    The same needs to happen in a few other positions - number 7 in particular. 4 of the best Irish 7 options are at one club (Leinster) therefore something has also got to give there. Similar situation at number 8 at Leinster with Doris, Deegan and Conan. I think that moves for Conan and VDF to Ulster / Connacht would help. Pains me to see Jordi occupy one of the 7 berths for the provinces with 2 better options usually missing out on match day squads at Leinster.

    All grand plans in theory, I'm sure getting players to move home is an altogether more difficult task. That said, we need to take a longer term focus with player movement. Moving the likes of Madigan and Marty Moore to Ulster has probably presented more problems to Irish rugby in the long run, than it has benefits, given they are blocking Johnston, Lowry and O'Toole.


    2) Andrew Porter reconverted to loosehead
    It was a very short-sighted move by all involved to switch Porter to tighthead a couple of years back. Like some of the short sighted player transfers I mentioned above, surely people involved in the decision to move Porter to tightead should have known that Ireland have a vast array of top talents coming through at tightead as it is, and very little in numbers coming through at loosehead.

    Furlong turned 28 in November so has 5+ good years left in him. Behind him, Tom O'Toole, Jack Aungier, Keynan Knox and Tom Clarkson in particular, represent very promising prospects at tighthead - all could be international quality.

    At loosehead, Cian Healy (33) is still trudging on admirably but hasn't long left. Kilcoyne (32), Healy's back up, doesn't have long left either. The same applies to Jack McGrath (31). All of this really makes the Porter decision all the more baffling.

    I do feel there are 1 or 2 good prospects coming through at loosehead, Josh Wycherley the best of them. Eric O'Sullivan has impressed too. But ultimately it is a position we are short in, therefore the sooner Porter is moved back, the better.

    Aside from the above, the prospect of seeing Porter and Furlong on the same field, either side of the scrum, significantly whets the appetite.

    3) Fast-track physical 'freaks'
    It doesn't take a genius to observe that where Ireland, and even Leinster, have come unstuck over the past few years has been against physically superior opponents. Genetically we don't produce 'em like the South Africans, but I have started to notice a shift in that regard with some of the forwards involved with the under 20's the past few years. Last year's u20 pack was monstrous. It was the first time I had seen an Irish underage side physically bully England.

    If Ireland want to be in the mix come 2023, I feel we need to put an emphasis on the development of Tom Ahern, Ryan Baird, Gavin Coombes, Dan Sheehan etc.
    I hope that Ahern doesn't find himself mostly warming the bench in this time with Snyman on the comeback trail. Again the question will be raised as to what province will best suit his development if that happens.

    Ultimately though, with some of the physical / athletic freaks that we now have at our disposal, it would be a travesty if this was the reason we were to fall short in 2023 once more.

    If we manage the players development right and they get the requisite game time, we could potentially field the following pack at the world cup:
    Porter, Kelleher/Sheehan, Furlong; Ryan, Ahern; Baird/Coombes, Leavy/Penny/Connors, Doris.

    There won't be many teams bullying that pack.

    I appreciate that all of the above points seem easy to suggest from my armchair, but some of the decisions made over the past few years re transfers, positional switches have been baffling, so I hope it is something we address by 2023.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ Lost Ormond


    alanb92 wrote: »
    I don't intend this to come across as a knee-jerk reactionary post in the face of 2 defeats from 2 in the 6N, but I've felt the below points need to be sorted for a long time now for the good of Irish rugby in the long run.

    1) Better Player Management / Inter-Provincial Transfers
    It doesn't reflect overly well on the IRFU's interprovincial transfer system that the usual starting out-half's for the provinces are: Ulster: Billy Burns/Ian Madigan; Connacht: Jack Carty/Conor Fitzgerald; Leinster: Ross Byrne and Munster: JJ Hanrahan.
    None of the above players have what it takes to be Ireland's long-term 10 (imo) yet are blocking the pathway for 5-6 players who do have that potential.

    Ulster: Bill Johnston (a player who I would have regarded to have the requisite long term potential to be Irish 10) is 3rd choice at Ulster and has barely gotten a sniff since his move from Munster. Mike Lowry, who many view as a more natural 10 than 15, has played precious little at 10 either.

    Munster: Hanrahan is playing ahead of Crowley, Healy and Flannery. Carbery due back soon too. Something has got to give..

    Leinster: Less of an issue in that Ross was seen as one that could develop into a test quality 10 but it hasn't happened for him yet. Harry will be 1st choice from next season I'd imagine. Frawley will likely settle and be most effective at 12. Charlie Tector a huge talent too but he is a few years away yet.

    Connacht: Neither Carty nor Fitzgerald have what it takes at International level (again an opinion), therefore Connacht present an obvious destination for one or two of the current young Munster 10's.

    With all of that in mind, if I was Nucifora I would be looking to engineer a situation whereby one/or two of Ben Healy, Jake Flannery and Bill Johnston move to Connacht. I would open the door for Carty and Conor Fitz to move abroad (I appreciate these things sound a lot more straightforward in theory).
    I would be just as open to JJ and Madigan moving abroad also. If something along the lines of the above happened the following 10 options at the clubs would look something like:
    Ulster: Burns, Lowry, Johnston(?)
    Connacht: Healy, Johnston(?), Flannery (also a good 15 option)
    Munster: Carbery, Crowley
    Leinster: H Byrne, R Byrne, Frawley

    The same needs to happen in a few other positions - number 7 in particular. 4 of the best Irish 7 options are at one club (Leinster) therefore something has also got to give there. Similar situation at number 8 at Leinster with Doris, Deegan and Conan. I think that moves for Conan and VDF to Ulster / Connacht would help. Pains me to see Jordi occupy one of the 7 berths for the provinces with 2 better options usually missing out on match day squads at Leinster.

    All grand plans in theory, I'm sure getting players to move home is an altogether more difficult task. That said, we need to take a longer term focus with player movement. Moving the likes of Madigan and Marty Moore to Ulster has probably presented more problems to Irish rugby in the long run, than it has benefits, given they are blocking Johnston, Lowry and O'Toole.


    2) Andrew Porter reconverted to loosehead
    It was a very short-sighted move by all involved to switch Porter to tighthead a couple of years back. Like some of the short sighted player transfers I mentioned above, surely people involved in the decision to move Porter to tightead should have known that Ireland have a vast array of top talents coming through at tightead as it is, and very little in numbers coming through at loosehead.

    Furlong turned 28 in November so has 5+ good years left in him. Behind him, Tom O'Toole, Jack Aungier, Keynan Knox and Tom Clarkson in particular, represent very promising prospects at tighthead - all could be international quality.

    At loosehead, Cian Healy (33) is still trudging on admirably but hasn't long left. Kilcoyne (32), Healy's back up, doesn't have long left either. The same applies to Jack McGrath (31). All of this really makes the Porter decision all the more baffling.

    I do feel there are 1 or 2 good prospects coming through at loosehead, Josh Wycherley the best of them. Eric O'Sullivan has impressed too. But ultimately it is a position we are short in, therefore the sooner Porter is moved back, the better.

    Aside from the above, the prospect of seeing Porter and Furlong on the same field, either side of the scrum, significantly whets the appetite.

    3) Fast-track physical 'freaks'
    It doesn't take a genius to observe that where Ireland, and even Leinster, have come unstuck over the past few years has been against physically superior opponents. Genetically we don't produce 'em like the South Africans, but I have started to notice a shift in that regard with some of the forwards involved with the under 20's the past few years. Last year's u20 pack was monstrous. It was the first time I had seen an Irish underage side physically bully England.

    If Ireland want to be in the mix come 2023, I feel we need to put an emphasis on the development of Tom Ahern, Ryan Baird, Gavin Coombes, Dan Sheehan etc.
    I hope that Ahern doesn't find himself mostly warming the bench in this time with Snyman on the comeback trail. Again the question will be raised as to what province will best suit his development if that happens.

    Ultimately though, with some of the physical / athletic freaks that we now have at our disposal, it would be a travesty if this was the reason we were to fall short in 2023 once more.

    If we manage the players development right and they get the requisite game time, we could potentially field the following pack at the world cup:
    Porter, Kelleher/Sheehan, Furlong; Ryan, Ahern; Baird/Coombes, Leavy/Penny/Connors, Doris.

    There won't be many teams bullying that pack.

    I appreciate that all of the above points seem easy to suggest from my armchair, but some of the decisions made over the past few years re transfers, positional switches have been baffling, so I hope it is something we address by 2023.
    You are being like many others too harsh on Jack Carty. He is a good option to be involved with Ireland and unlike quite a few others who you list he at least will be playing 20+ games a season as an outhalf.
    Ideally we would have more movement between provinces but players dont want to leave Dublin/Belfast/Limerick and their homes etc that much
    At least 1 of Healy, Crowley and Flannery most like the latter two will be playing 12 or 15 in games rather than 10.
    It wasnt short sighted at all to turn Porter to tight head. There is several others who can play loose and its easier to produce looseheads at any level than tighthead. Porter has been tight head for quite some time now and im not sure he will necessarily be better off changing back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭ wittycynic


    Detailed post OP, thanks.

    It's a difficult balance to strike between ensuring the provinces have high quality mature players available and giving promising players decent playing time to aid their development.

    I don't think there's much wrong with having Billy Burns and Ian Madigan at Ulster, or Carbery and Hanrahan at Munster (especially as the prospect of Carbery remaining fit for any reasonable length of time seems remote).

    At the end of the day, it's slim pickings in terms of Irish out halves at the moment, and you get the sense that if any of the young 10s start showing real consistent promise they'll be given serious opportunities in their provincial set ups and rushed into the Ireland squad with undue haste.

    It's a shame that the A internationals disappeared as they were a good opportunity for many of these players to get exposure to international setups. An A six nations championship would be very useful to all teams for this purpose I reckon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,046 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    On the Porter move, I don't think it was short-sighted, I think things just worked out differently than expected. At the time, Leinster had Healy and McGrath at loosehead, McGrath was about to go on the Lions tour, and Healy was after dropping his weight and was back performing like his past self. Marty Moore had just left for Wasps the season before too, and you have to remember that the likes of O'Toole, Aungier, Clarkson etc were still in school.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭ Podge_irl


    There is also nothing wrong with Kilcoyne and Ed Byrne. We are blessed at TH and that is not something we have been able to say historically in the professional era. Furlong just spent a year out of the game, having Porter there to cover that was both vital and an incredible luxury.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ Lost Ormond


    wittycynic wrote: »
    Detailed post OP, thanks.

    It's a difficult balance to strike between ensuring the provinces have high quality mature players available and giving promising players decent playing time to aid their development.

    I don't think there's much wrong with having Billy Burns and Ian Madigan at Ulster, or Carbery and Hanrahan at Munster (especially as the prospect of Carbery remaining fit for any reasonable length of time seems remote).

    At the end of the day, it's slim pickings in terms of Irish out halves at the moment, and you get the sense that if any of the young 10s start showing real consistent promise they'll be given serious opportunities in their provincial set ups and rushed into the Ireland squad with undue haste.

    It's a shame that the A internationals disappeared as they were a good opportunity for many of these players to get exposure to international setups. An A six nations championship would be very useful to all teams for this purpose I reckon.
    An A 6 nations would be great but its gone about 15 years at this stage and french/english clubs wouldnt agree about releases for players for 5 weekends of games but we should be looking for more games even if it was against full sides from Romania, Georgia


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Theres been a lot of talk in the aftermath of the Welsh game about us only having four provinces and how it works against us.

    It was completely overlooked that Connacht is continuously shafted in terms of moving quality Irish players.

    The Hensaw move was despicable given it came off the back of a league win.

    Bundee was retained but I think the dynamics around his move to Ireland had as much to do with that.

    Top talent only seems to leave Connacht so maybe the IRFU should look into maximising use of what we have instead of us complaining we haven't as many teams to select from than England or France.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ Lost Ormond


    Theres been a lot of talk in the aftermath of the Welsh game about us only having four provinces and how it works against us.

    It was completely overlooked that Connacht is continuously shafted in terms of moving quality Irish players.

    The Hensaw move was despicable given it came off the back of a league win.

    Bundee was retained but I think the dynamics around his move to Ireland had as much to do with that.

    Top talent only seems to leave Connacht so maybe the IRFU should look into maximising use of what we have instead of us complaining we haven't as many teams to select from than England or France.

    How much of the top talent that has left Connacht was actually from the province. Only Henshaw. Rest havent. However Henshaw wanted to move. We do need to better utilise all provinces but Connacht are producing more of their own players and there is more playing at club and in schools than ever before and the quality of that rugby is higher than it ever has been and that will be reflected in the pro game in time


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭ UAEguy2020


    One thing that has to be done between now and 2023 is we need to get someone from the outside to look at the Irish backline play and fix it as it’s criminal how blunt it is, ideally someone from NZL. I know it probably won’t happen but I’d kill for Farrell to look into hiring Tony Brown from the Highlanders to join the staff as a backs coach, we don’t need our backs to play like Fiji we just need a mind set shift on how to attack and getting someone from a different culture could really help us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,456 ✭✭✭✭ salmocab


    Top quality THs are the hardest thing in rugby to find, we for once have 2 and we should continue to count our blessings on that front.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭ alanb92


    Theres been a lot of talk in the aftermath of the Welsh game about us only having four provinces and how it works against us.

    It was completely overlooked that Connacht is continuously shafted in terms of moving quality Irish players.

    The Hensaw move was despicable given it came off the back of a league win.

    Bundee was retained but I think the dynamics around his move to Ireland had as much to do with that.

    Top talent only seems to leave Connacht so maybe the IRFU should look into maximising use of what we have instead of us complaining we haven't as many teams to select from than England or France.

    I agree that Connacht are criminally under-utilised. The only players that seem to be sent there are ones not deemed good enough to make the Leinster/Munster academy or sub-academy, rather than young players who actually have a good chance of making it at International level, but are behind more experienced players at their clubs.

    I feel there are a lot of positions at both Connacht and Ulster that are wasted from an Irish perspective (i.e. players who will never be good enough for Ireland occupy the positions). Hopefully that changes going forward, though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 733 ✭✭✭ Must love hardship


    We could create a 5th team call it Lunster for all the non Dublin born Leinster players..

    Connect it to the DCU campus and a new pitch out near abbotstown or the new South East University in  Carlow/Kilkenny/Waterford Play the matches in Buckley Park in Kilkenny.

    Also Rename Leinster: Dublin.

    Team of:

    Ed Byrne Bryan Byrne Tadgh Furlong
         Tadgh Bierne Devin Toner
    Caelan Doris               Will Connors
                       Jack Conan
    Luke mcgrath Joey Carberry
           Ciaran Frawley  Robbie Henshaw
    Adam Byrne                     Dave Kearney
                    Jimmy o brien

    Bench: james treacy Peter dooley Vakh Abdaladze
    Jack Dunne Jordi Murphy, Hugh o sullivan, Tom daly, Jamie Osborne


  • Registered Users Posts: 328 ✭✭ Tommybojangles


    I definitely appreciate someone putting so much effort into a post, but just from a Connacht point of view your first point is nice on theory but wildly impractical. Firstly Fitzgerald was very highly rated by Connacht when he arrived, he briefly usurped Carty in a few peoples eyes early on when he was in form.

    So you can't ignore that they did almost exactly what you're asking for a year and a half ago, it's probably mot going to happen for Fitzgerald but if any of Healy, etc were to arrive in Galway I'd assume they'd be given two years at least.

    On the other thing, and apologies im going to speak from the heart here, I would be inclined to tell the IRFU f*** right off if they leaned on Connacht to let Carty move abroad. Connacht at the end of the day is my team and while we always hear that the national team is the be all and end all, what would it say to Connacht fans if our homegrown 10 was punted because he didn't light up the stage in the approximately 300 minutes of test rugby he got?

    Thought I don't think he's the answer for Ireland, a lot of work and time jas gone into Carty and I've no interest in losing him and being handed a Munster prospect to see if he's any good, more than likely losing him in a few years if he is, and then onto the next prospect if he isn't.

    I feel as though a lot of people get lost in the idea of the national team, and forget that the provinces are rugby teams with supporters, history and ambitons of their own. They're more than just academies. I know many people will disagree and say that the national teams needs supercede everything and that's fine but I disagree.

    Anyway, as I said good and detailed post, hope it doesn't come across as having a go OP, you talked a lot of sense!


  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭ alanb92


    I definitely appreciate someone putting so much effort into a post, but just from a Connacht point of view your first point is nice on theory but wildly impractical. Firstly Fitzgerald was very highly rated by Connacht when he arrived, he briefly usurped Carty in a few peoples eyes early on when he was in form.

    So you can't ignore that they did almost exactly what you're asking for a year and a half ago, it's probably mot going to happen for Fitzgerald but if any of Healy, etc were to arrive in Galway I'd assume they'd be given two years at least.

    On the other thing, and apologies im going to speak from the heart here, I would be inclined to tell the IRFU f*** right off if they leaned on Connacht to let Carty move abroad. Connacht at the end of the day is my team and while we always hear that the national team is the be all and end all, what would it say to Connacht fans if our homegrown 10 was punted because he didn't light up the stage in the approximately 300 minutes of test rugby he got?

    Thought I don't think he's the answer for Ireland, a lot of work and time jas gone into Carty and I've no interest in losing him and being handed a Munster prospect to see if he's any good, more than likely losing him in a few years if he is, and then onto the next prospect if he isn't.

    I feel as though a lot of people get lost in the idea of the national team, and forget that the provinces are rugby teams with supporters, history and ambitons of their own. They're more than just academies. I know many people will disagree and say that the national teams needs supercede everything and that's fine but I disagree.

    Anyway, as I said good and detailed post, hope it doesn't come across as having a go OP, you talked a lot of sense!

    No worries! Good to get different views on it. I suppose the point I was making re getting Healy and/or Flannery / Johnston to Connacht is that I would see them as potential upgrades on Carty and Conor Fitz. So it would benefit Connacht just as much as Ireland.

    I felt that moving Fitzgerald to Connacht was a waste in ways, as he was never an overly prodigious talent (he didn't start at u20 level), and there was a big opportunity to get a better 10 there. I feel a better talent (like Johnston then, or Healy now) would put a lot of pressure on Carty for the jersey and eventually overtake him. I don't really see that happening with Fitzgerald.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,441 ✭✭✭✭ Cookiemunster


    alanb92 wrote: »
    No worries! Good to get different views on it. I suppose the point I was making re getting Healy and/or Flannery / Johnston to Connacht is that I would see them as potential upgrades on Carty and Conor Fitz. So it would benefit Connacht just as much as Ireland.

    I felt that moving Fitzgerald to Connacht was a waste in ways, as he was never an overly prodigious talent (he didn't start at u20 level), and there was a big opportunity to get a better 10 there. I feel a better talent (like Johnston then, or Healy now) would put a lot of pressure on Carty for the jersey and eventually overtake him. I don't really see that happening with Fitzgerald.
    Fitzgerald wasn't moved to Connacht. He got released from the Munster academy after a season and Connacht took him into their academy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    We know who we need for 2023.

    You know it. I know it. We all know it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭ Buddy Bubs


    We know who we need for 2023.

    You know it. I know it. We all know it.

    I feel left out. I don't know it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ Burnsicus


    To the guy who said this post is harsh on Carty.

    It might be harsh, but by god is it fair.

    Carty has 10 intl caps and will be pushing 31 come World Cup. Let’s say he gets another 10 caps before then (seeing how he’s currently out of favour). Do we want a 20-25 cap Carty leading us into a World Cup? Do we want him on the bench or in the squad? If he shows massive improvements in form and consistency then great! But in my opinion, we've seen what we're going to be getting for Carty. Those caps and experience are better going to the next crop. I'm not a Carty basher mind. I rate Carty higher than Burns, R. Byrne and JJ. None of which are true international standard 10s.

    - JJ and Carty blow so hot and cold. And have been flattering to deceive for years now! Good on their day but they haven't taken their chances.
    - Ross Byrne is also a good player. A good one-dimensional player. He doesn't have the well-rounded game needed at intl level. Nothing to be ashamed of. Jennings, Muldoon and Cullen were all respected club legends but weren't deemed international standard.
    - Burns is alright. Takes the ball to the line. Tries things, but ultimately not the standard we should be aspiring too.

    I don't fully agree with shipping all the above players abroad as proposed in the first post, but there needs to be some acceptable level of churn. Someone please tell me I'm wrong..... but was ROG the last high profile irish 10 to retire?? Given the nature of the sport and season, our provinces need three options at outhalf. 3 Leinster 10s have now linked up with six nations squad. Leo must be tearing his ear hair out! Some ranking system.

    Having said that, If Harry Byrne gets through the Northampton warm-up without injury, then he plays and he gets that CRITICAL EXPERIENCE every pundit has been salivating over. He then moves ahead of Ross in many peoples minds. Timing has not been good to Irish rugby. More so when you consider the cup games which were cancelled. Casey losing out big time there!

    The point I'm trying to get across here is if there was ever a time for a “generational skip” it’s now.

    Everyone has an opinion on who should be playing outhalf but if you've watched Harry Byrne play and not been seriously impressed then you're either anti-leinster or you're even more dead inside than me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ Lost Ormond


    Burnsicus wrote: »
    To the guy who said this post is harsh on Carty.

    It might be harsh, but by god is it fair.

    Carty has 10 intl caps and will be pushing 31 come World Cup. Let’s say he gets another 10 caps before then (seeing how he’s currently out of favour). Do we want a 20-25 cap Carty leading us into a World Cup? Do we want him on the bench or in the squad? If he shows massive improvements in form and consistency then great! But in my opinion, we've seen what we're going to be getting for Carty. Those caps and experience are better going to the next crop. I'm not a Carty basher mind. I rate Carty higher than Burns, R. Byrne and JJ. None of which are true international standard 10s.

    - JJ and Carty blow so hot and cold. And have been flattering to deceive for years now! Good on their day but they haven't taken their chances.
    - Ross Byrne is also a good player. A good one-dimensional player. He doesn't have the well-rounded game needed at intl level. Nothing to be ashamed of. Jennings, Muldoon and Cullen were all respected club legends but weren't deemed international standard.
    - Burns is alright. Takes the ball to the line. Tries things, but ultimately not the standard we should be aspiring too.

    I don't fully agree with shipping all the above players abroad as proposed in the first post, but there needs to be some acceptable level of churn. Someone please tell me I'm wrong..... but was ROG the last high profile irish 10 to retire?? Given the nature of the sport and season, our provinces need three options at outhalf. 3 Leinster 10s have now linked up with six nations squad. Leo must be tearing his ear hair out! Some ranking system.

    Having said that, If Harry Byrne gets through the Northampton warm-up without injury, then he plays and he gets that CRITICAL EXPERIENCE every pundit has been salivating over. He then moves ahead of Ross in many peoples minds. Timing has not been good to Irish rugby. More so when you consider the cup games which were cancelled. Casey losing out big time there!

    The point I'm trying to get across here is if there was ever a time for a “generational skip” it’s now.

    Everyone has an opinion on who should be playing outhalf but if you've watched Harry Byrne play and not been seriously impressed then you're either anti-leinster or you're even more dead inside than me.
    One game isnt critical experience but Harry Byrne shouldnt be an answer to any irish question until he is consistently playing for Leinster in bigger games.
    Carty isnt in the same conversation as JJ. Carty has led his team to places JJ has been nowhere near.
    What is the level we should be aspiring to that Burns isnt?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,441 ✭✭✭✭ Cookiemunster


    Buddy Bubs wrote: »
    I feel left out. I don't know it.
    He's a very large man from Bruff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭ theVersatile


    I don't think just choosing the generic freaks is the way to go. Our best player this campaign has been Beirne, a guy who people were thinking wasn't big or strong enough for the second row at this level. Heads would roll here if Chris Farrell /Stu McCloskey and Bundee Aki started ahead of Robbie and Garry. A recent thread put Josh Whycherly, hardly the biggest prop, as the #1 LH prospect in the country. Size isn't the answer. All you'd get is people continuing to complain about us being one dimensional like they do with Stander atm, only the complaining would be more spread out.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Carty has led his team to places JJ has been nowhere near.

    If by that you mean the Pro12 win in 2015/16, Carty wasnt in the team for the final.
    AJ McGinty had sealed the 10 shirt as the year rolled on.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,279 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    He's a very large man from Bruff.

    Cappamore


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ Burnsicus


    Well, I was being facetious about the "critical experience". I'd still have Harry in there despite the lack of experience. And in a world of coronavirus and with a squad as stacked as Leinsters, 18 appearances isn't too bad for the young lad.

    This might sound crazy, but a player with less experience... could... JUST MAYBE... be better than a player with lots of experience. Experience is routinely used as the excuse. Andrew Trimble was on Second Captains today saying that we shouldn't be starting Kelleher because the lineout is going well.. we don't want to undo that good work. That reasoning is baffling and damaging to young players.

    Negative, conservative mindset.

    Carty is 100% in the same conversation as JJ. But both of them aren't within an arses roar of Sexton and Carbery. Even with sextons regression since 2018.

    These places Carty led his team to... are you referring to the Pro 12 final? Let's be real that was Pat Lamb. Carty fell of a slide or something didnt he? Or was it the Quarter-final with New Zealand?

    Aspirations? Well as one of the best rugby nations in the world should we not aspire to have some of the best outhalves in the world....

    A Richie Mounga
    A Beauden Barrett
    A George Ford
    An Owen Farrell
    An Andy Goode

    Of the Irish crop coming through, Harry Byrne, Crowley, Johnston, the potential is there! But sorry lads, Carty has hit a mediocre vein of form yet again, so you lads will just have to wait until you're 25 like everyone else!


  • Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭ john9876


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Cappamore

    hmmm, I've googled Cappamore rugby player ... and the Idea of John Hayes making a comeback as an out half doesn't fill me with confidence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ Lost Ormond


    Burnsicus wrote: »
    Well, I was being facetious about the "critical experience". I'd still have Harry in there despite the lack of experience. And in a world of coronavirus and with a squad as stacked as Leinsters, 18 appearances isn't too bad for the young lad.

    This might sound crazy, but a player with less experience... could... JUST MAYBE... be better than a player with lots of experience. Experience is routinely used as the excuse. Andrew Trimble was on Second Captains today saying that we shouldn't be starting Kelleher because the lineout is going well.. we don't want to undo that good work. That reasoning is baffling and damaging to young players.

    Negative, conservative mindset.

    Carty is 100% in the same conversation as JJ. But both of them aren't within an arses roar of Sexton and Carbery. Even with sextons regression since 2018.

    These places Carty led his team to... are you referring to the Pro 12 final? Let's be real that was Pat Lamb. Carty fell of a slide or something didnt he? Or was it the Quarter-final with New Zealand?

    Aspirations? Well as one of the best rugby nations in the world should we not aspire to have some of the best outhalves in the world....

    A Richie Mounga
    A Beauden Barrett
    A George Ford
    An Owen Farrell
    An Andy Goode

    Of the Irish crop coming through, Harry Byrne, Crowley, Johnston, the potential is there! But sorry lads, Carty has hit a mediocre vein of form yet again, so you lads will just have to wait until you're 25 like everyone else!
    Kelleher cant be picked when basics of his position are letting him down. It isnt negative or conservative to not select a guy who's throwing in is inconsistent.
    you cant say select him but not Jack Carty because he supposedly isnt within an arses roar of Sexton. Carty has shown that he is good enough to be in the conversation and Carbery last played a game of rugby 12 months ago.

    Joey Carbery isnt in any conversation until he can come back onto the field and then show fitness and then show some form. That isnt looking likely for a while yet
    You realise that Sexton was 24 until he emerged as a top level player. You cant just disregard players for the next young thing


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,279 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    john9876 wrote: »
    hmmm, I've googled Cappamore rugby player ... and the Idea of John Hayes making a comeback as an out half doesn't fill me with confidence.

    Blasphemy


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    OP - you have seen the WC draw yes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭ dublin49


    I think the policy of only playing home players actually works against us.especially in the specialist positions .In an alternate universe we could a few outhalves playing in the premership or for Scot/Welsh teams allowing more turnover in crucial positions yielding a wider choice.When Sexton went to France it opened things up for Madigan etc,we need more of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭ alanb92


    I don't think just choosing the generic freaks is the way to go. Our best player this campaign has been Beirne, a guy who people were thinking wasn't big or strong enough for the second row at this level. Heads would roll here if Chris Farrell /Stu McCloskey and Bundee Aki started ahead of Robbie and Garry. A recent thread put Josh Whycherly, hardly the biggest prop, as the #1 LH prospect in the country. Size isn't the answer. All you'd get is people continuing to complain about us being one dimensional like they do with Stander atm, only the complaining would be more spread out.

    I should have clarified, but I’m not suggesting putting emphasis on the bigger lads development solely because of their size - they are bloody good rugby players to go with it. Ahern and Baird are two of the most impressive athletes / rugby players we have produced in many a year and I feel an Irish pack with those 2, along with Doris, Ryan, Furlong, Porter etc will be a match for anyone (both in terms of skill set and physicality), which is ultimately what we need if we want to compete with England / SA etc.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭✭ Burnsicus


    Kelleher cant be picked when basics of his position are letting him down. It isnt negative or conservative to not select a guy who's throwing in is inconsistent.
    you cant say select him but not Jack Carty because he supposedly isnt within an arses roar of Sexton. Carty has shown that he is good enough to be in the conversation and Carbery last played a game of rugby 12 months ago.

    Joey Carbery isnt in any conversation until he can come back onto the field and then show fitness and then show some form. That isnt looking likely for a while yet
    You realise that Sexton was 24 until he emerged as a top level player. You cant just disregard players for the next young thing

    I wouldn’t say Kelleher was at fault for our lineout woes last year. The lineout as a whole was awful last year even when Herring was starting. Kelleher also offers more around the pitch as a ball carrier. I’m just using him as an example of how we’re afraid of promoting young players. And as Kieth Wood has said the only way he gets better is with reps and the pitch.

    Yeah Sexton had to literally beat down the door to get in. And there were calls for him to be introduced earlier. That’s always been the way. ROG was waning then and Sexton is waning now and with Carbary injured no one is stepping up.

    This whole thread is about a rebuild for the WC. Which I’m advocating. I think there’s players out there with a higher ceilings than Carty/Burns/R.Byrne. And it’s in those players we should be investing time and energy.


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