Squatters

Haulage21

I’ve recently inherited a farm from a distant relation and unfortunately I’m not from the area the land is in and wouldn’t be too familiar with the layout.
Upon checking boundaries etc it has come to light that a local farmer has taken over one plot of land and has created his own entrance. I have tried to speak to him but he is telling me he is using it for 16 years and is refusing to leave.
My solicitor is telling me I can only get him out by applying for an injunction or court order, which apparently is in the region of €5k upwards. Surely there has to be another way. Just wondering if anyone has experience of this. Many thanks

Irishphotodesk

Haulage21 wrote: »

I’ve recently inherited a farm from a distant relation and unfortunately I’m not from the area the land is in and wouldn’t be too familiar with the layout.
Upon checking boundaries etc it has come to light that a local farmer has taken over one plot of land and has created his own entrance. I have tried to speak to him but he is telling me he is using it for 16 years and is refusing to leave.
My solicitor is telling me I can only get him out by applying for an injunction or court order, which apparently is in the region of €5k upwards. Surely there has to be another way. Just wondering if anyone has experience of this. Many thanks

Has he shown you any proof of his usage for 16yrs ?

My understanding of the situation is that you pay him off or take him to court - in which case you may still loose and end out paying thousands in legal fees...€5k quoted by your solicitor I would guess is on the assumption he has no proof, it could easily cost upwards of €50k for a land dispute legal fees.

If he has no proof of using the land for multiple years, it could still cost you thousands in legal fees....and loads of time in terms of letters being sent between legals to find a solution (each letter sent by solicitor either on your behalf or in response to other parties solicitor will probably cost you €100-150 every time)

Or alternatively you accept that he has stolen a piece of land and move on with your life.

Irishphotodesk

You could check the other guys claims by ordering satellite images of the area - which will cost you a couple of hundred per image.

This should show you roughly when the new access was created (but not who created it) - if the other guy really has been on the land a number of years the access point should be visible on satellite images 5-10years ago.

Victor

If the new entrance is from a public road, planning permission would be required.

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

You could check the other guys claims by ordering satellite images of the area - which will cost you a couple of hundred per image.

There is a variety of satellite image sets available for free that might at least give indications.

These would of course have to be backed up if things went further.

cruizer101

Is it not the case that it is up to the squatter to prove they have been exclsuvely using the property for over 12 years and that if they can't prove it the default applies i.e. the land is still owned by the registered owner.

Atlantic Dawn

If it's near the roadside is there a possibility that older versions of Google Streetview will have the old setup captured?

Bikerman2019

Google maps should show it

ittakestwo

Apparently it is extremely difficult to get adverse possession of land if the title holder is disputing it. The law for adverse possession in Ireland really appears to be in cases where the title holder has abandoned the land and can't be traced.

Did the relative you inherit the farm from use it in the last 12 years? Were they paying any type of insurance for the farm or property tax in that last 12 years. Was the farm willed to you and do you know if the will was made in last 12 years. Minimal usage or any acts of ownership by the title holder like paying insurance or willing the land is probably enough to defeat a claim of adverse

Nekarsulm

Was your relative lifting EU payments on the portion of land?
Are there Entitlements attaching to this portion of land?
Do you know your relations Herd/Flock number?
Contact the Dept.Ag local office.
Every plot of land is satellite mapped by Dept Ag and has a reference number.
Dept. should be able to tell if your land and entitlements were rented out by your relative, and to whomever.
First step, personally, would be get a man with a Hitachi and close the entrance, and get it fenced properly.
Also, Dept Ag have a division in Cavsn called "lands".
They deal with exactly this sort of thing.
Dept Ag
Lands Division,
Farnham Street,
Cavan town.
Have the Folio Number and any other info to hand.
Good luck.
But in the meantime, get that illegal entry closed before the chancer spreads fertilizers or slurry on the field for this years grazing....

Nekarsulm

One final thought, if your relative was actively farming and lifting subs or payments ( Glas, Reps, Single Farm Payment etc) he likely would have had a Dept. Inspection, unannounced or otherwise, over the last 12 years.
This would be recorded.
It is usual for the land owner to walk the land with the Inspector.

Haulage21

Thanks everyone for your replies.
My uncle hadn’t been farming himself for the last good number of years. He had been ill for some time and then went into care. The farm sort of fell into disarray. My family live in a different part of the country. I have spoken to neighbours in his area and they have said it was just left there when he got sick and one neighbour sold off the animals for him. They have said this person has been using this one part for a long time.
It looks like I might have to let this patch go. Legally I have been told if I try to close his entrance he could sue me for damage to his goods and trespass to his goods and also I couldn’t do any of this without an order from the courts. Plus if he has applied for squatters rights to land registry that I would have to wait for the outcome of this before interfering with his usage. Seems all on the side of the squatter and an expensive process to remove him.

Nekarsulm

That's a pity, as his entitlements attaching the land will have been returned to the National Reserve.
Don't know how big the total area is, or the disputed area, but the entitlements are worth approx €200 per ha, per year.
Of course, if your "good neighbour" somehow accessed them and added them to his own, you could feck him up nicely by informing te Dept and questioning his legal right to claim them...... thereby blocking all his payments untill he proves his right to that piece of land....
Or if he applied for entitlements from the National Reserve on your bit of land... or his child applied for them under the Young Farmers scheme..
Still worth querying with Lands in Cavan,( the successor to Land Registry) and getting some definite information on the situation.
Biggest problem for you is that this now screws up the sale of the land, if that was on your list of options...

ittakestwo

I would use the land and make evidence of your usage of the land. If he does not apply to the land registry or to the courts for squatter rights within a year and you can show that you have started to use the land again then his claim will fail as he won't have 12 years of exclusive possession up to the action. Video yourself walking through the field when he is not around so he wont cop on to what you're doing.

Not a very nice thing to rob a neighbours land while they are in a nursing home.

Mimon

I would say do your research and see if you can fight this without spending too much first. I must be inclined to go as far as possible within the law to make sure this brass necked arsehole didn't get his way.

Haulage21

I will probably sell the remaining areas, I’m not from a farming background and live too far away to be renting it out to someone else.
I have been told that I cannot sell it knowing that someone else is claiming squatters on it, surely this doesn’t seem right??
Seems my only options are spend €5k-€10k to get an injunctions to remove him, or wait until squatters goes through and see if he wins it or finally let him have it and sell the remaining parts. The latter seems least hassle and least expensive of all.
Thanks again for the help

Mimon

Haulage21 wrote: »

I will probably sell the remaining areas, I’m not from a farming background and live too far away to be renting it out to someone else.
I have been told that I cannot sell it knowing that someone else is claiming squatters on it, surely this doesn’t seem right??
Seems my only options are spend €5k-€10k to get an injunctions to remove him, or wait until squatters goes through and see if he wins it or finally let him have it and sell the remaining parts. The latter seems least hassle and least expensive of all.
Thanks again for the help

https://www.lynchsolicitors.ie/squatters-adverse-possession/#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20the%20law,as%20simple%20as%20taking%20possession.

Good info here haulage. Seems like the 12 years is crucial and the squatter had to make it obvious to the landowner that he was claiming the land from the beginning. If your relation was in a nursing home surely he would not have known. Maybe something to discuss with a solicitor about. Onus is on the squatter to prove all this. If possible you should go and video yourself doing some work in the field.

If the price you would get for the squatted on land covered the costs would be worth it to stop the theif stealing the land.

Claw Hammer

Adverse possession doesn't run if the owner is under a disability. This would almost certainly be the case if someone was in a nursing home and unable to manage their affairs.
It would be an expensive and lengthy business to sue but self help remedies could be even more expensive. .
It is most unlikely that anyone would buy without vacant possession and clarity over ownership of the land.
The solicitors advice is likely correct.
You don't say when your uncle dies. That could be critical as to when the time for adverse possession started to run.
Some individuals are thick when it comes to land and will force it to court no matter how bad their case is.
Be prepared for a long legal battle even if you are in the right.

Wabbit Ears

The costs go both ways. If OP initiates legal proceedings and doesn't tip his hand, the farmer may be advised by his own solicitor that the land isnt worth the legal fees to defend his claim.

_Brian

I’d also guess this guy is a local bully.

He needs putting back in his place or before you know it he will spoil the sale of the land and you’ll be left with no other bidders only him.

Fight him, all the way, if it’s €10k then so be it, just take that from remainder of the lands sale if you loose and if you win you’ll have more land to sell so no bother.

Claw Hammer

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

The costs go both ways. If OP initiates legal proceedings and doesn't tip his hand, the farmer may be advised by his own solicitor that the land isnt worth the legal fees to defend his claim.

Some people are thick and just won't give in, no matter what they are told.

Haulage21

He seems to know the system!!
I just find the law so hard to understand. It doesn’t seem right or fair that an injunction is the only means to get him out and that he can sue me if I touch his property, where’s the logic in that.

Get the injunction and see if he'll buy the land off you for a fair price, imo. He knows you're going to sell eventually so it's in his favour to wait and call your bluff. If he has any sense he'll pay for the land to avoid the legal cost of establishing ownership, especially if he's case isn't that strong. Unfortunately sense often goes out the window in these cases.

Try not to get dragged too into the personal aspect of this case. What he's doing is lousy but this law is there to keep land productive. He probably feels it was better someone was using the land than to see to it idle and then he feels he has a right to use it etc.

tabby aspreme

Local waster near me trying a similar stunt, but in this case it's a derelict house with a half acre, the owner bought the place in 2001, AIB repossessed it in 2012, and he bought it back again in 2016, this lad puts a few calves on it, and has a few trailers parked there , but I would think he's at nothing as it was last sold in 2016, he is asking neighbours to sign letters saying he was using it for 15 years.

Mimon

Haulage21 wrote: »

He seems to know the system!!
I just find the law so hard to understand. It doesn’t seem right or fair that an injunction is the only means to get him out and that he can sue me if I touch his property, where’s the logic in that.

It is not his property as the onus is still on him to prove it. A judge will not look kindly on him moving in on someone who was in poor health's land.

I'd pay someone to refence it and to put a few cattle in. It is your land after all.

Victor

tabby aspreme wrote: »

this lad puts a few calves on it, and has a few trailers parked there

Mere grazing of animals is insufficient to claim adverse possession. I doubt the trailers improve things materially.

Irishphotodesk

Haulage21 wrote: »

He seems to know the system!!
I just find the law so hard to understand. It doesn’t seem right or fair that an injunction is the only means to get him out and that he can sue me if I touch his property, where’s the logic in that.

a court of law doesn’t care about right or wrong, it is only concerned about the facts, what you know and what you can prove are often different.

If the matter is brought before a court it’s your legals job to paint a picture of this guy taking advantage of a neighbour, by moving into his land as soon as he was placed in a home, a callous act on a person of diminished mental capacity and it’s his sides job to show some sort of agreement between the late owner and the man on the land, this will be a hard task to prove, if it doesn’t exist, if somehow there is any documentation showing this, it is open to dispute.

He may not be able to claim any ownership of the land, you have title to it and unless he can or is willing to make a claim in a court.

Haulage21

Before a judge would grant an injunction I presume my solicitor and his solicitor have to put both sides arguments before the judge or how does it work, would that mean he would have to pay for the injunction also? Or can I get an injunction in my own right?

Victor

Haulage21 wrote: »

Before a judge would grant an injunction I presume my solicitor and his solicitor have to put both sides arguments before the judge or how does it work, would that mean he would have to pay for the injunction also? Or can I get an injunction in my own right?

Either party can seek an injunction.

Costs will generally be decided after the full hearing of the case, not at injunctions stage (your solicitor will still seek payment, subject to whatever you have agreed with them). If no injunction is granted, the plaintiff will have to bear their own costs. The defendant may seek an order for costs, but these aren't always granted.

One side could seek and ex parte injunction, that is only they are in court, the other side isn't. However, the courts will generally only grant these for a few days and the court will ask for both parties to be present at the next hearing.

Courts prefer injunctions that say "You must not do this" as opposed to ones that say "You must do this".

BattleCorp

How much land is the farmer using? Is it an acre, 5 acres, 100 acres etc.?

I think you'll probably have to go legal eitherways if you are intending on selling the land. Him squatting will hold up any sale.

raymick

I am having the same type of problem at the moment and it is all so complicated. I don't understand how someone can just take your land the land that you paid for and own according to the deeds wether or not you are using it.
we had a neighbour who was a member of the travelling community he built an extension on the back of his house and encroached on our land by quiet a bit, we were threatened for years not to say anything by himself and his sons we had 2 elderly parents living with us so we said we would not cause any problems until after they were gone rather than get them embroiled in any nasty scenes, but to cut a long story short they were not paying the mortgage so the bank were after them and they just disappeared so we were left not knowing who to contact or who owned the house. When the bank put up an eviction order I contacted them and their solicitor to no avail the solicitor just said they would inform their client (the bank) They eventually put the house up for auction so I got my solicitor to contact the auctioneer and they agreed to put in the contract of sale that there was an on going boundary issue. On the morning of the auction the new owner contacted our solicitor the situation was explained to him, he agreed he would engage with use and sort it out. Roll on a year and even though he has admitted to the boundary encroachment he is claiming adverse possession
I have been paying insurance and property tax on my property for what is on the deeds I wouldn't assume any was paid by my neighbour, I don't know what to do next can he claim possession even though he only owns it a year and the previous owner was not there for 12 years either the house lay vacant for 9 years

Claw Hammer

Deleted User wrote: »

Get the injunction and see if he'll buy the land off you for a fair price, imo. He knows you're going to sell eventually so it's in his favour to wait and call your bluff. If he has any sense he'll pay for the land to avoid the legal cost of establishing ownership, especially if he's case isn't that strong. Unfortunately sense often goes out the window in these cases.

Try not to get dragged too into the personal aspect of this case. What he's doing is lousy but this law is there to keep land productive. He probably feels it was better someone was using the land than to see to it idle and then he feels he has a right to use it etc.

The o/p is unlikely to get an interlocutory injunction which means waiting for a full trial. It will take years and cost thousands. meantime the neighbour is going to be on the land stirring up local sympathy so by the time the o/p wins his case no one in the area will buy it anyway.

The o/ps' family sat on their hands when this guy went onto the land. They are now paying the price.

Mimon

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The o/p is unlikely to get an interlocutory injunction which means waiting for a full trial. It will take years and cost thousands. meantime the neighbour is going to be on the land stirring up local sympathy so by the time the o/p wins his case no one in the area will buy it anyway.

The o/ps' family sat on their hands when this guy went onto the land. They are now paying the price.

Sitting on their hands as in incapacitated in a nursing home?

Claw Hammer

Mimon wrote: »

Sitting on their hands as in incapacitated in a nursing home?

There was only the uncle in the nursing home, not the whole fanily.

Mimon

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There was only the uncle in the nursing home, not the whole fanily.

Maybe no immediate family in the area. Probably why the chancer took advantage of the situation

Doniekp

Victor wrote: »

Mere grazing of animals is insufficient to claim adverse possession. I doubt the trailers improve things materially.

If grazing of animals is insufficient, what needs to be done to claim adverse possession?

Show use of the land by putting Round-up on the land as means of preparing it for further agricultural use after having gone fallow. You will then see how brazen the person is and he will know that you are not entertaining his spurious claim.

893bet

I would get a decent solicitor and issue a letter that he is trespassing etc. Make sure the solicitors quotes the right law with regards to adverse possession and how it doesn’t apply etc for the reasons in this thread.

Get your ducks in a row using satellite for when he started using it etc.

**** him. Don’t let the **** have it. Pure utter scum. He will in his arse take you to court. He won’t waste his money.

How big is the area?

A letter which acknowledges a dispute?
Talk to solicitor about actively using the land and then actively use the land and let him crawl back under whatever rock he is normally to be found under.

Nekarsulm

Doniekp wrote: »

If grazing of animals is insufficient, what needs to be done to claim adverse possession?

I think you have to show "improvement", be that fertilizing, repairing fences, clearing drains, cutting weeds etc
There was a case a decade ago where a claim of "adverse possession" failed because the owner could prove he stood on the road and looked in over the hedge at his field.
Farmland is usually mapped to the centre of the road, so in effect the landowner was actually on his own land.

Also, a gap in a hedge has no justification to exist. If it isn't on an ordinance survey map then close that gap.

Nekarsulm

OP, have you got a chance to contact Lands in Cavan?
It's not easy dealing with this class of a hoor when you don't live in the immediate area.
Personally, and speaking as a non-legal person, I'd get that gap closed.
Every day you allow it to exist shows acceptance of his claim.

beertons

Plough the whole field?

893bet

Deleted User wrote: »

A letter which acknowledges a dispute?
Talk to solicitor about actively using the land and then actively use the land and let him crawl back under whatever rock he is normally to be found under.

That could be a good point.

However I don’t think the OP is in the area to tackle him head on on a daily basis to assert ownership?

893bet

893bet wrote: »

That could be a good point.

However I don’t think the OP is in the area to tackle him head on on a daily basis to assert ownership?

I see not being on site an advantage. Engage Contractor, Round-up, till re-seed.
When the land goes up for sale and the Scrounger sees locals expressing interest in it he'll know he is on a hiding to nothing.
To assert his claim requires a willing solicitor. This isn't a whiplash claim with a good likelyhood of payout. Solicitors will want money up front.

Mimon

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, a gap in a hedge has no justification to exist. If it isn't on an ordinance survey map then close that gap.

Safety issue with a tree near the gap and it needs to come down. It's his land so can drop it in the gap if that's the safest place to drop it.

Mimon

Farming is a legitimate reason to travel also so I'd be down and walk the fields and take a time stamped video

pockets3d

I bet the farmers side of the story reads a lot like the bull mccabes.

Mimon

pockets3d wrote: »

I bet the farmers side of the story reads a lot like the bull mccabes.

I think he is just a opportunistic thief who has no morals. Crazy that the law isn't amended so this can't happen.

Claw Hammer

Mimon wrote: »

I think he is just a opportunistic thief who has no morals. Crazy that the law isn't amended so this can't happen.

The law isx that if you sit on your hands and don't mind your property, you can lose it. Why should it be changed? Someone could come back after 100 years and claim land otherwise1

Mimon

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The law isx that if you sit on your hands and don't mind your property, you can lose it. Why should it be changed? Someone could come back after 100 years and claim land otherwise1

Should set myself up as a land bandit and roam around looking for people who are unfortunate enough to be incapacitated and can't get out to their land.

Yes definitely have the right to have it over the people that the incapacitated person who has now died left it to. All within the "law" of course. It's Bull**** and stop justifying it.

You sound like you have been the beneficiary of stolen land and probably explains the attempted justification

Mimon

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The law isx that if you sit on your hands and don't mind your property, you can lose it. Why should it be changed? Someone could come back after 100 years and claim land otherwise1

What Zombie reality do you live in?