Haiti falls into civil war. It President refusing to stand down and attacking protest

AMKC

Poor Haiti. It never seems to get better there. It's one if the poorest countries in the world and now it's in chaos again.
Ever since the massive Earthquake a decade it has just seemed to go downhill.

Would you believe Haiti used to be a rich country at one stage.

BorneTobyWilde

USA needs to conquer Hati, would take an afternoon. Needs someone to take it .

randd1

AMKC wrote: »

Poor Haiti. It never seems to get better there. It's one if the poorest countries in the world and now it's in chaos again.
Ever since the massive Earthquake a decade it has just seemed to go downhill.

Would you believe Haiti used to be a rich country at one stage.

It hasn't been rich since the black slaves rose up and murdered the whites in a revolution and it became independent. That was 200 years ago.

Since then it's been run by warlords and voodoo priests, Pap Doc being the most infamous.

partyguinness

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

USA needs to conquer Hati, would take an afternoon. Needs someone to take it .

Why? There is eff all there.

BorneTobyWilde

partyguinness wrote: »

Why? There is eff all there.

A recent finding has shown that the nation of Haiti might have some of the largest oil reserves in the world. The oil reserves are estimated that they could be larger than those of Venezuela

Smee_Again

randd1 wrote: »

It hasn't been rich since the black slaves rose up and murdered the whites in a revolution and it became independent. That was 200 years ago.

They weren't helped by France demanding reparations in the billions (at today's money) for the loss of their slaves and slave colony. Not to mention the discount imposed on Haitian exports into France.

Is it any wonder the country is as poor as it is.

ednwireland

randd1 wrote: »

It hasn't been rich since the black slaves rose up and murdered the whites in a revolution and it became independent. That was 200 years ago.

Since then it's been run by warlords and voodoo priests, Pap Doc being the most infamous.

dont forget the reparations they had to pay the french for freeing themselves

The external debt of Haiti is one of the main factors that has caused the country's persistent poverty. After the Haitians gained independence from French colonial rule in the Haitian Revolution of 1804, the French returned in 1825 and demanded that the newly independent country pay the French government and French slaveholders the modern equivalent of US$21 billion for the "theft" of the slaveowner's "property" and the land that they had turned into profitable sugar and coffee-producing plantations. This independence debt was financed by French banks and the American Citibank, and finally paid off in 1947.

BorneTobyWilde

It's weird that a place as tiny at Haiti has 12 millions people on it. More than London. And it keeps going up and up, it's one big fcuk fest, nothing else to do.

partyguinness

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

A recent finding has shown that the nation of Haiti might have some of the largest oil reserves in the world. The oil reserves are estimated that they could be larger than those of Venezuela

You mean a 20 year old survey that has quite a few 'ifs' and 'buts' and 'could haves' and speculation but is rather weak when it comes to definites.

General consensus is that there may be a small amount of oil spread over a huge area taking in the Caribbean generally in which Haiti takes up a tiny tiny part.

randd1

Smee_Again wrote: »

They weren't helped by France demanding reparations in the billions (at today's money) for the loss of their slaves and slave colony. Not to mention the discount imposed on Haitian exports into France.

Is it any wonder the country is as poor as it is.

The ostracising from the international community because they were a black republic didn't help matters either.

But that was well over a hundred years ago. Most of the problems these days can be traced back to simple poor governance, any semblance of operating for the public good and good old fashioned brutality of dictatorships.

simongurnick

Always amazes me to think that the other side of island is Dominican Republic. It has its own problems for sure, but really is like night and day.

Timberrrrrrrr

partyguinness wrote: »

Why? There is eff all there.

There's innocent people there.

partyguinness

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

There's innocent people there.

Since when does that matter?

To suggest that the US should invade another sovereign country simply to protect innocent people when it does not further the self interest of the US is well meaning but extremely naive. That is not how the US works.

Del2005

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

There's innocent people there.

The US record of invading counties, or not invading but changing the regime, isn't much good for innocent people.

Smee_Again

randd1 wrote: »

The ostracising from the international community because they were a black republic didn't help matters either.

But that was well over a hundred years ago. Most of the problems these days can be traced back to simple poor governance, any semblance of operating for the public good and good old fashioned brutality of dictatorships.

Less than 80 years ago they were still paying these reparations, that's very recent to be paying for freeing themselves from slavery.

It's true too that its recent history of dictatorships and piss poor governance hasn't helped but I don't think it's fair to mention the later without adding the context of the former.

Gatling

Del2005 wrote: »

The US record of invading counties, or not invading but changing the regime, isn't much good for innocent people.

One country ,Iraq

Afghanistan went down the drain once the Russians invaded and massacresd the government , then the civilian population got in along with a lot of its infrastructure ,

In haiti it's a different situation less religious ideological differences and tribalism compared to the middle East ,
Haiti is in a bad way , quarter the size of here with almost 4 times the population ,the country is broke ,the people are suffering ,it will take a huge international effort to sort out and organise real reconstruction efforts along with rebuilding government that can run the country again.

Dyr

Gatling wrote: »

Haiti is in a bad way , quarter the size of here with almost 4 times the population ,the country is broke ,the people are suffering ,it will take a huge international effort to sort out and organise real reconstruction efforts along with rebuilding government that can run the country again.

How do you rebuild something that was never there?

You can piss as much money as you want up against the wall in Haiti but it won't change the place

timmyntc

Gatling wrote: »

One country ,Iraq .

Libya, Syria, Chile?

Varik

Haiti's previous president stepped down in Feb 2016, they had an interim government that was meant to stay for a few months but it was delayed. The Elections only happened in November 2016 and the now current president took power in February 2017.

So it's not like he was elected and then interim government was still in power for a year making him a prematurely lame duck president, he wasn't president at all and for 9 months of that he wasn't even elected yet.

neris

Did we not send them a load of cash and humanitarian aid a few years ago that vanished

Gatling

timmyntc wrote: »

Libya, Syria, Chile?

When did they invade Syria and Chile ,Libya was primarily Anglo french endeavour , yes America did have involvement but it was led by others .

Nothing to do with Haiti though

Gatling

Bambi wrote: »

How do you rebuild something that was never there?

You can piss as much money as you want up against the wall in Haiti but it won't change the place

They have to do something ,the country is in the same state as it was 10+ years ago post earthquake , litterally looks exactly a few days after ,
All the humanitarian aid and funds have all gone , squandered and lost in various scam schemes billions missing ,

partyguinness

I remember after the earthquake 2010 posters on here (yes I have been here that long to remember) were awfully keen to fly to Haiti to help out.

It was gently pointed out to some eager posters that without experience in major disaster recovery you are eff all use and more of a hinderance.

Donald Trump

partyguinness wrote: »

I remember after the earthquake 2010 posters on here (yes I have been here that long to remember) were awfully keen to fly to Haiti to help out.

It was gently pointed out to some eager posters that without experience in major disaster recovery you are eff all use and more of a hinderance.

Don't be ridiculous. Everyone knows that all you need to do after any sort of disaster is throw paper towels into a crowd!

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

When did they invade Syria and Chile ,Libya was primarily Anglo french endeavour , yes America did have involvement but it was led by others .

Nothing to do with Haiti though

Er, they invaded Haiti at one point...

timmyntc

Gatling wrote: »

When did they invade Syria and Chile ,Libya was primarily Anglo french endeavour , yes America did have involvement but it was led by others .

Nothing to do with Haiti though

The original post was about US involvement in regime change - it never improves things for the man on the street.

Same would be true of Haiti - yes their leaders are corrupt, but foreign intervention will just leave a power vacuum which will be filled by the same if not worse.

The only people who can be trusted to make good change for the Haitians, are the Haitians.

Dyr

Gatling wrote: »

They have to do something ,the country is in the same state as it was 10+ years ago post earthquake , litterally looks exactly a few days after ,
All the humanitarian aid and funds have all gone , squandered and lost in various scam schemes billions missing ,

So piss even more money up against the wall? Outside intervention is not going to help Haiti, it's a basket case. Failed government after failed government throughout its history.

Interesting that someone mentioned Chile, suffered a bigger earthquake than Haiti in 2010, is still the best economy in South America.

Timberrrrrrrr

partyguinness wrote: »

Since when does that matter?

To suggest that the US should invade another sovereign country simply to protect innocent people when it does not further the self interest of the US is well meaning but extremely naive. That is not how the US works.

Its what they have done for decades in oil rich countries.

Gatling

Bambi wrote: »

Interesting that someone mentioned Chile, suffered a bigger earthquake than Haiti in 2010, is still the best economy in South America.

Something has to be done ,

Sooner or later they will foreign troops to keep the peace ,but states like that would be better if the the UN was reorganised so they can essentially take the country for a number of years so reconstruction can take place ,and put a team in to run as administrators who control the spending and organise the rebuilding contracts,and get schools and hospitals up running with the rest of the viral infrastructure

Montage of Feck

The input of foreign aid and NGO's in the long term is of negligible benefit to a nation, the old proverb about teaching a man to fish very much applies here.

Dyr

Gatling wrote: »

Something has to be done ,

Sooner or later they will foreign troops to keep the peace ,but states like that would be better if the the UN was reorganised so they can essentially take the country for a number of years so reconstruction can take place ,and put a team in to run as administrators who control the spending and organise the rebuilding contracts,and get schools and hospitals up running with the rest of the viral infrastructure

Something does not have to be done.


Allowing an organisation as inept and corrupt as the UN to run the country is a recipe for disaster. The UN handled security in Haiti for a while post the earthquake, didnt work out too well and the Haitians didnt care for them what with the rapes etc.

Hangdogroad

Didnt Dinny O Brien have his fingers in some pie there?

Dyr

Hangdogroad wrote: »

Didnt Dinny O Brien have his fingers in some pie there?

He of the crap haircut was selling mobile networks to them, presumably he was so chastened by the process of being awarded a mobile contract by a corrupt minister in his homeland that he vowed to focus on flogging his wares only in places where governmental corruption is unheard of...places like... Haiti

And fair play to him

Jimbob1977

From one disaster to another.

o The Duvalier family plundering the country

o The Ton Ton Macoute militia terrorising the general public

o Voodoo and mysticism deeply engrained (although supposed to be Catholic)

o The devastating earthquake.

And check out the deforestation.

Google Earth has a stark picture of the border with the Dominican Republic.

The Dominican Republic side is lush and fertile. The Haitian side is completely devoid of vegetation. Everything chopped down for firewood.

Stovepipe

For charcoal,not always firewood. Money for reforestation stolen by the corrupt locals. The Dominicans specifically maintain a dense forest right on the border and do not allow any logging or mineral mining there. That's not because they are saints;it's just that they recognise how bad it could get if they allowed the kind of rampant logging that went on on the other side of the border.

whysobecause

Bambi wrote: »

Something does not have to be done.


Allowing an organisation as inept and corrupt as the UN to run the country is a recipe for disaster. The UN handled security in Haiti for a while post the earthquake, didnt work out too well and the Haitians didnt care for them what with the rapes etc.

I remember some stories of the UN soldiers enjoying the company of little Haitian girls.

ypres5

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

A recent finding has shown that the nation of Haiti might have some of the largest oil reserves in the world. The oil reserves are estimated that they could be larger than those of Venezuela

i suppose if biden does start up military interventions again it might be easier for them to do it in Haiti than in the middle east

Biafranlivemat

Haiti
99% Christian
100% Voodoo

randd1

whysobecause wrote: »

I remember some stories of the UN soldiers enjoying the company of little Haitian girls.

Very often at the behest of the parents too as they could make more money selling their daughter for one night with a soldier than they would make in a year. Kind of sums up the place.

If any word could be used to describe Haiti, its history, its politics, its traditions and the damage done to its people, I reckon most people would simply use the word tragic.

biko

The Clintons didn't help at all

"The Clintons robbed and destroyed Haiti"
https://www.africanexponent.com/post/7108-how-the-clintons-robbed-and-destroyed-haiti

"Their actions in the country were shameful and shouldn’t be defended…"
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/11/what-the-clintons-did-to-haiti

Thinkingaboutit

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

USA needs to conquer Hati, would take an afternoon. Needs someone to take it .

US troops entered in 1915, 2004 and 2010, although the first was the only invasion proper. It was not helpful. And it is hard to think of anything that is so downside only. And major aid is not particularly good. Recall the corruption involved whether from charities there (Oxfam) or through corrupt contracts. The Dominican Republic might seem a possible source of help, but traditionally neither liked each other. Haiti harshly ruled the Dominican Republic for a time from 1822 to 1822, and more recently there has been suspicion of Haitian migrants. Both have had dictators, but whereas Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo was aggressive in maintaining forest cover, Haitian emperors, kings and presidents did little as forest cover vanished, and flooding and low yields followed.

It isn't clear what could help. Foreign advisors tend to be for the benefit of their home country. Popular leaders become demagogues. Easing foreign investment might help, but this might not be popular. Easing migration means the active section depart. Maybe better trade ties, tilted towards Haiti?

whisky_galore

Some countries can't be helped or help themselves and this is one of them. Failed state.

fantaiscool

whisky_galore wrote: »

Some countries can't be helped or help themselves and this is one of them. Failed state.

Being colonized by France and having to pay a huge sum of money after their successful revolt had a really devastating effect. The behavior of France there was absolutely disgusting and they should be paying Haiti that money back, and some.

whysobecause

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

US troops entered in 1915, 2004 and 2010, although the first was the only invasion proper. It was not helpful. And it is hard to think of anything that is so downside only. And major aid is not particularly good. Recall the corruption involved whether from charities there (Oxfam) or through corrupt contracts. The Dominican Republic might seem a possible source of help, but traditionally neither liked each other. Haiti harshly ruled the Dominican Republic for a time from 1822 to 1822, and more recently there has been suspicion of Haitian migrants. Both have had dictators, but whereas Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo was aggressive in maintaining forest cover, Haitian emperors, kings and presidents did little as forest cover vanished, and flooding and low yields followed.

It isn't clear what could help. Foreign advisors tend to be for the benefit of their home country. Popular leaders become demagogues. Easing foreign investment might help, but this might not be popular. Easing migration means the active section depart. Maybe better trade ties, tilted towards Haiti?

The governments of the Dominican republic have not treated the Haitians well.
The army killed an estimated 17,000 to 35,000 Haitians in 1937.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsley_massacre

Biafranlivemat

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Haiti
99% Christian
100% Voodoo

^^^^^This.

whisky_galore

fantaiscool wrote: »

Being colonized by France and having to pay a huge sum of money after their successful revolt had a really devastating effect. The behavior of France there was absolutely disgusting and they should be paying Haiti that money back, and some.

Paying money back won't help for obvious reasons.

Dyr

whisky_galore wrote: »

Paying money back won't help for obvious reasons.

I'm pretty sure they were paying the French no because of their successful revolution but because the the French showed up with a Navy and the then presidente/emperor/chief buck cat of Haiti didnt fancy handing the reigns back to France so he agreed to an exorbitant amount in reparations

Would have been in Haitis long term interest if the French had taken it over again