Temperamental Bull

kay 9

Hi all, I've got a 3yo Ped AA bull that seems to be getting more aggressive.
He's out wintered with the cows.
Some days he's ok and others it's a nuisance to feed them as he's pucking the bale and recently started roaring now as well.
Yesterday evening whilst putting out the bale I was lucky to have the ring feeder between me and him.
I even think he considered coming through the centre at one stage.
Anyone else experience this with bulls this time of year?
I know most will say including myself get rid of him ASAP and it's looking like I'll have to.

Hard Knocks

kay 9 wrote: »

Hi all, I've got a 3yo Ped AA bull that seems to be getting more aggressive.
He's out wintered with the cows.
Some days he's ok and others it's a nuisance to feed them as he's pucking the bale and recently started roaring now as well.
Yesterday evening whilst putting out the bale I was lucky to have the ring feeder between me and him.
I even think he considered coming through the centre at one stage.
Anyone else experience this with bulls this time of year?
I know most will say including myself get rid of him ASAP and it's looking like I'll have to.

AA bulls are more prone for bad temperament from a young age
Get rid of him ASAP, best lose a few euro than a life / limb

TooOldBoots

Burger king, no questions, a bull can turn wicked at any age or any time of the year
Plenty replacement bulls for sale

kay 9

Thanks folks. I've just called an agent after reading over my own post.
Not worth the hassle in keeping. Someone would only get badly hurt or worse and I've enough to deal with on my plate atm.

TheBoyConor

Off to the factory first chance you get. End of.

Bull is not worth the risk.

E mac

Have an AA here starting to show a bit of aggression as well. AA are funny at least they show their aggression be it pucking a bale of straw / other cattle /gates...Fresians are far more crafty don’t show their true colours until it’s too late sometimes. To your question I’d say get rid.We are with ours.

patsy_mccabe

Funny, but all the Lim bulls I've had here have all being very quiet. I always put it down to the cows always putting manners on them when they are young.

kay 9

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Funny, but all the Lim bulls I've had here have all being very quiet. I always put it down to the cows always putting manners on them when they are young.

Yes, we used to mostly run limo bulls as well and they'd be fine. Can only remember one we had to get rid of that attacked the tractor. He was 7 though and had paid his way. Neighbour bought him knowing his history and he had for another two years and showed heifers from him.
I wanted to get back into angus as my grandfather always had them and I like the breed for my setup.
As I'm working full time though I think I'm going to change strategy and cut back on sucklers

kay 9

E mac wrote: »

Have an AA here starting to show a bit of aggression as well. AA are funny at least they show their aggression be it pucking a bale of straw / other cattle /gates...Fresians are far more crafty don’t show their true colours until it’s too late sometimes. To your question I’d say get rid.We are with ours.

What age is your lad out of interest?

_Brian

Hang him up.

Castlekeeper

_Brian wrote: »

Hang him up.

And tell us what he made, out of interest, please.

kay 9

He's going Wednesday evening. Soon as I get him loaded safely and know what he made I'll report back.
He's outwintered and not pumped so not expecting great things

_Brian

kay 9 wrote: »

He's going Wednesday evening. Soon as I get him loaded safely and know what he made I'll report back.
He's outwintered and not pumped so not expecting great things

Hope you get him loaded safely. It’s the right decision

Bass Reeves

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Funny, but all the Lim bulls I've had here have all being very quiet. I always put it down to the cows always putting manners on them when they are young.

The general rule with bulls is that breeds that are quite as cows or bullocks are cross as bulls and animals that are wild as cows or bullocks are quite as bulls. The two exceptions are CH and HE bulls both being from relatively quite stock that are quite as bulls as well LM are actually timid animals that spook easy. An AA heifer or cow is not afraid of you. Therefore these bulls are generally not afraid of you either and you cannot make them afraid of you.

Mac Taylor

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The general rule with bulls is that breeds that are quite as cows or bullocks are cross as bulls and animals that are wild as cows or bullocks are quite as bulls. The two exceptions are CH and HE bulls both being from relatively quite stock that are quite as bulls as well LM are actually timid animals that spook easy. An AA heifer or cow is not afraid of you. Therefore these bulls are generally not afraid of you either and you cannot make them afraid of you.

I have one sure way of making them afraid of me but when they figure it out.......there half way up the burger crush:D

We had a CH bull years ago and had to get rid of him.........he bust gates etc....at the end he would even chase the tractor....never so happy to see the back of anything in all my life...........some of the wickest cows we had here were AAx...they would point blank refuse to go up the crush at times........TB testing was a nightmare (as was dosing) as they would swing their heads like a battering ram.

We also had 2 LMx cows that were a pain to deal with..........always having to watch where they were.......one was bought in as a weanling and would run to the corner of the field when she saw you, the other was our own breeding who did the same (she got caught be a weanling so we kept her).........both culled after one calf.

Life (can be) is too short to put up with that crap....anything now that is not docile is sold.

cosatron

TooOldBoots wrote: »

Burger king, no questions, a bull can turn wicked at any age or any time of the year
Plenty replacement bulls for sale

around here we say 'happy meal for him'

TooOldBoots

cosatron wrote: »

around here we say 'happy meal for him'

he could be a whopper

patsy_mccabe

Neighbour here has a month old purebred simm calf. A smashing calf out of an exceptionally quiet cow. Thing is, the calf is stone mad. I was in the shed today tagging another calf and you could actually see her shaking with fear. She took a big gate her when she put her head tru it. I told him to keep rubbing her but we're both puzzled as to why she is so mad. Pity as she'd make a smashing cow.

E mac

kay 9 wrote: »

What age is your lad out of interest?

4 year old. Had to double check to be honest felt like he’s been here longer. As I said he doesn’t hide his aggression but was manageable. I’m gonna miss him he bred great calves!

gozunda

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Neighbour here has a month old purebred simm calf. A smashing calf out of an exceptionally quiet cow. Thing is, the calf is stone mad. I was in the shed today tagging another calf and you could zctually see her shaking with fear. She took a big gate her when she put her head tru it. I told him to keep rubbing her but we're both puzzled as to why she is so mad. Pity as she'd make a smashing cow.

Years ago neighbour had a very quite easily handled bull. That changed practically overnight with the same bull taking down an entire feed barrier and trying to break through a block wall. Vet was called and advised only thing to do was pts there and then. Vet did an autopsy and found a large tumour on the brain. Neighbour was lucky he wasn't killed tbh.

patsy_mccabe

gozunda wrote: »

Years ago neighbour had a very quite easily handled bull. That changed practically overnight with the same bull taking down an entire feed barrier and trying to break through a block wall. Vet was called and advised only thing to do was pts there and then. Vet did an autopsy and found a large tumour on the brain. Neighbour was lucky he wasn't killed tbh.

Ya, I was thinking it might be some infection in the brain. Thing is, if she stays like this, she will be very dangerous in a few months.

tanko

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Ya, I was thinking it might be some infection in the brain. Thing is, if she stays like this, she will be very dangerous in a few months.

Do you know which bull she's off?

patsy_mccabe

tanko wrote: »

Do you know which bull she's off?

He bought the cow incalf to a young pbr simm bull. Now the bull was killed and not sold for breeding. I just thought they couldn't get a buyer for him. Bull is 5 stars docility on ICBF.
Breeder would be well known and a friend of his.

Bellview

Hard Knocks wrote: »

AA bulls are more prone for bad temperament from a young age
Get rid of him ASAP, best lose a few euro than a life / limb

Don't agree there on general angus comment. Have them for over 30 years and rare enough that they go off side. There are some exceptional bloodlines that are lively ie KYA are often head bangers..

Saying that a bull is always a bull and each have their own mindset and can be temperamental at times

FintanMcluskey

Good choice to get rid OP.

I was always told that ironically it’s the quiet bill that kills, not the one you are weary of

Albert Johnson

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Neighbour here has a month old purebred simm calf. A smashing calf out of an exceptionally quiet cow. Thing is, the calf is stone mad. I was in the shed today tagging another calf and you could actually see her shaking with fear. She took a big gate her when she put her head tru it. I told him to keep rubbing her but we're both puzzled as to why she is so mad. Pity as she'd make a smashing cow.

Wild simmentals aren't very common but in my experience a wild one is as dangerous as any of the supposed "flighty" breeds. One of the closest escapes I ever had in the marts was with a simmental cow. A local man had a quiet simmental bull that he culled prematurely because the resulting calves were horrendously wild despite being off docile type cow's, just a pure fluke really.

As an aside you'll often see wild cattle trembling when in close contact with people even if your not doing something directly with them. It's fear that's causing this and it will leave them totally unpredictable imo. Any animal that's that wound up is capable of anything because all they want is an escape route. They could jump in on top of your or break there neck trying to get away, it's a total lottery. It's one thing for them to be wary of you but another to be so petrified that they're trembling uncontrollably.

squinn2912

Albert Johnson wrote: »

Wild simmentals aren't very common but in my experience a wild one is as dangerous as any of the supposed "flighty" breeds. One of the closest escapes I ever had in the marts was with a simmental cow. A local man had a quiet simmental bull that he culled prematurely because the resulting calves were horrendously wild despite being off docile type cow's, just a pure fluke really.

As an aside you'll often see wild cattle trembling when in close contact with people even if your not doing something directly with them. It's fear that's causing this and it will leave them totally unpredictable imo. Any animal that's that wound up is capable of anything because all they want is an escape route. They could jump in on top of your or break there neck trying to get away, it's a total lottery. It's one thing for them to be wary of you but another to be so petrified that they're trembling uncontrollably.

Yep I’d agree there. That trembling is a very unsettling sight. Unpredictable what they’ll do.

We had a bull that would patrol the hedge or fence when you’d appear. Roar and yelp when cattle would be taken into the yard for dosing etc. He wasn’t hard to turn or command as such and super calves but after one year we let him go it’s not worth it. The strange thing was he just hopped up onto the trailer with no fuss at all the day we sold him on, I was expecting a handlin.

Another £700 bought his replacement and he’s now on his 4th season and he’s a lovely calm bull.

Bellview

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yep I’d agree there. That trembling is a very unsettling sight. Unpredictable what they’ll do.

We had a bull that would patrol the hedge or fence when you’d appear. Roar and yelp when cattle would be taken into the yard for dosing etc. He wasn’t hard to turn or command as such and super calves but after one year we let him go it’s not worth it. The strange thing was he just hopped up onto the trailer with no fuss at all the day we sold him on, I was expecting a handlin.

Another £700 bought his replacement and he’s now on his 4th season and he’s a lovely calm bull.

We would sell bulls but what I generally find is if a bull is halter trained generally their temperament is ok.. if therecwas every a bull I was unhappy with at training .. he would go to Larry.. regardless of price .. and if the mother happened to breed 2 weird ones in a row... she
Goes to Larry as well...Larry is good at solving temperament issues

Anto_Meath

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Neighbour here has a month old purebred simm calf. A smashing calf out of an exceptionally quiet cow. Thing is, the calf is stone mad. I was in the shed today tagging another calf and you could actually see her shaking with fear. She took a big gate her when she put her head tru it. I told him to keep rubbing her but we're both puzzled as to why she is so mad. Pity as she'd make a smashing cow.

Years ago, dad bought 5 cattle in a bunch belongings to a dealer, there was a lovely little red bullock in it. But once he had rested we discovered he was stone mad. Would go up the wall in the shed to get away from you & the poor devil would tremble with fear. My mum started giving him ivy or ash leaves every time she was around the yard. After a few months he got used of her and she could manage him no bother, but if he spotted anyone else, head was up and he would be away. Mum could rub him in the filed and he would walk out the gate behind her into the yard but the rest of us had to admire him from a far.

Charolois 19

I bought a ch x bb heifer 3 year ago, she was aa mad as a bag of cats when she landed, now the rest of the girls would be wild quiet, after a year around the place with the rest and been walked through every day she was as quiet as a mouse, I took 2 calves of her, a.i angus, cant remember the bulls, the two bull calves she had were as wild, last years calf was the pits altogethe.r, needless to say I didn't need the hassle no matter what her calves were like, sold her last autumn with calf at foot .

Anto_Meath

Always find a nervous cow will rear a nervous calf, that is why I only keep my quietest heifers for breeding. I find if a cow is quite & easy handled then generally her calf will be too.

whelan2

Bought 6 fr heifer calves off a lad about 3 years ago. 3 of them have been culled due to temperament.

capslock88

Bellview wrote: »

Don't agree there on general angus comment. Have them for over 30 years and rare enough that they go off side. There are some exceptional bloodlines that are lively ie KYA are often head bangers..

Saying that a bull is always a bull and each have their own mindset and can be temperamental at times

I know there are a lot of quiet AA out there but I'd have to say having gone to about 10 All breed bull sales every year for the last 20 years (with HE -colours nailed to mast!) that it would be rare not to see at least one wild/difficult AA bull. Often a racket trying to load one in the evening or seeing one trying to jump gates.
I accept that there would be plenty other AA there that would be ok, but it would be rare enough to see bulls of other breeds acting that way so consistently. This is just what I've observed - not anti AA at all - a breed with lots of plus points - as proven by their popularity - just wouldn't be mad about their temperament in general.

Bellview

capslock88 wrote: »

I know there are a lot of quiet AA out there but I'd have to say having gone to about 10 All breed bull sales every year for the last 20 years (with HE -colours nailed to mast!) that it would be rare not to see at least one wild/difficult AA bull. Often a racket trying to load one in the evening or seeing one trying to jump gates.
I accept that there would be plenty other AA there that would be ok, but it would be rare enough to see bulls of other breeds acting that way so consistently. This is just what I've observed - not anti AA at all - a breed with lots of plus points - as proven by their popularity - just wouldn't be mad about their temperament in general.

Yeap I have seen some too. What i also notice there is a big difference between bulls sold at breeders sales and at general mart sales angus breed seem to be a mecca for dealers and what i often see are its thecdealers that have the trouble... the bull is often bought in one yard un trained and 48 hours later landed in a mart probably with a rope throw overs it back

We have all stories from different breed societies sale's or ploughing where cattle have gone crackers... I have not heard any on HE though ..

capslock88

Bellview wrote: »

Yeap I have seen some too. What i also notice there is a big difference between bulls sold at breeders sales and at general mart sales angus breed seem to be a mecca for dealers and what i often see are its thecdealers that have the trouble... the bull is often bought in one yard un trained and 48 hours later landed in a mart probably with a rope throw overs it back

We have all stories from different breed societies sale's or ploughing where cattle have gone crackers... I have not heard any on HE though ..

Ya to be fair I agree with you on that, there would be a lot of dealer bulls at these sales and AA society sales would be a different story with very little trouble. But the dealers would have other breeds at these All breed sales too and I can't say that I have noticed significant numbers of them being difficult or wild as I have with AA...Certainly though dealers don't help the situation, especially if you had a bull that might be a shade nervous. He'd probably be fine if managed carefully - but he'd be sure to go a bit cracked if he was trucked around the country with strange animals to multiple places/marts.

Bellview

capslock88 wrote: »

Ya to be fair I agree with you on that, there would be a lot of dealer bulls at these sales and AA society sales would be a different story with very little trouble. But the dealers would have other breeds at these All breed sales too and I can't say that I have noticed significant numbers of them being difficult or wild as I have with AA...Certainly though dealers don't help the situation, especially if you had a bull that might be a shade nervous. He'd probably be fine if managed carefully - but he'd be sure to go a bit cracked if he was trucked around the country with strange animals to multiple places/marts.

Agree but the number of angus by dealers compared to other breeds there are generally a lot more angus at least in Cork limerick tipp. In general dealers will often look for a bargain to turn a quick buck and temperament won't bother them... while a breeder will worry more about his brand

One thing also is certain bulls which are liked by dairy incl KYA .. his sons have a 50% chance of being crackers.. same applies to te mania Berkley bloodlines... the ai companies have a responsibility here also as ie kya is only recommended for pedigree... while he should not be used on pedigree due to temperament... I have 15 ish of his straws and they are going to a dairy farmer

On my experience I have trained bulls in 3 days from start to finish but again I focus on temperament as life not worth nut jobs

FeelTheBern

Have a cow close to calving here at the moment that we bred ourselves. She was awful flighty as a calf/weanling. Particularly if trying to do anything with her. We had no notion of keeping her but of course she went in calf. We thought we were in for it. Strangely enough she was grand and quiet once she had a calf and she’s been a grand quiet cow since. Must be 10 yo now.

squinn2912

FeelTheBern wrote: »

Have a cow close to calving here at the moment that we bred ourselves. She was awful flighty as a calf/weanling. Particularly if trying to do anything with her. We had no notion of keeping her but of course she went in calf. We thought we were in for it. Strangely enough she was grand and quiet once she had a calf and she’s been a grand quiet cow since. Must be 10 yo now.

Cows can be peculiar. Last year we had one who’s calf got joint ill and just at the weekend one calved early and the calf was a bit weak. Both very similar two very thick oul halions to ever work with but holding the calf up to suck them while in the head gate and not a bother when feeling round her to guide the calves mouths. You’d think they knew and accepted you’re trying to help. As much as a relief as it is I’ll be well pleased if the boyo sucks himself in the morning! These cows wouldn’t be wicked just a bit rough and ignorant

gozunda

squinn2912 wrote: »

Cows can be peculiar. Last year we had one who’s calf got joint ill and just at the weekend one calved early and the calf was a bit weak. Both very similar two very thick oul halions to ever work with but holding the calf up to suck them while in the head gate and not a bother when feeling round her to guide the calves mouths. You’d think they knew and accepted you’re trying to help. As much as a relief as it is I’ll be well pleased if the boyo sucks himself in the morning! These cows wouldn’t be wicked just a bit rough and ignorant

Haven't heard that description in a while...

kay 9

Loaded up and gone this evening. He rattled 40 shades out of the jfc meal bin whilst waiting and did some roaring when he knew he was going up on trailer.
The lad that brought him wouldn't go near him. I was like McGiver in the pen but he went up the trailer handy enough in the end.
Was a love/hate relationship with him but I can actually walk around the cows now without looking over my shoulder.

I find it hard and maybe harder than most lads to get rid of stock as I get attached to them, but when it comes to safety folks don't take any chances.
I felt instant relief and a sense of safety in the yard with him gone.

Track9

kay 9 wrote: »

Loaded up and gone this evening. He rattled 40 shades out of the jfc meal bin whilst waiting and did some roaring when he knew he was going up on trailer.
The lad that brought him wouldn't go near him. I was like McGiver in the pen but he went up the trailer handy enough in the end.
Was a love/hate relationship with him but I can actually walk around the cows now without looking over my shoulder.

I find it hard and maybe harder than most lads to get rid of stock as I get attached to them, but when it comes to safety folks don't take any chances.
I felt instant relief and a sense of safety in the yard with him gone.

================================================
Good job you did that. Me lucky & not so lucky.
First can I say we have cows who are so agreeable they come up for a head scratch?
Have a Char cow bought in from neighbor about five yrs now. One of those with an attitude that snorts & shakes the head if she waiting for nuts or whatever.
She gave AI man a bad attitude wed morning. I went dosing & things in afternoon & I swear she made a concerted effort to take my hand off & spent the evening in casualty. I always made excuses for her as shess neary a Pedigree . Sooo my new motto " If in doubt kick them out "
Don't think twice get them out the door.

390kid

kay 9 wrote: »

Loaded up and gone this evening. He rattled 40 shades out of the jfc meal bin whilst waiting and did some roaring when he knew he was going up on trailer.
The lad that brought him wouldn't go near him. I was like McGiver in the pen but he went up the trailer handy enough in the end.
Was a love/hate relationship with him but I can actually walk around the cows now without looking over my shoulder.

I find it hard and maybe harder than most lads to get rid of stock as I get attached to them, but when it comes to safety folks don't take any chances.
I felt instant relief and a sense of safety in the yard with him gone.

At least ya done the decent thing and told him about the bull. I bought a bull to the factory for a neighbour one night and quickly learned that there was bigger reason than just being old that he was being got rid. Thought he was gonna make sh1te of everything that night

kay 9

390kid wrote: »

At least ya done the decent thing and told him about the bull. I bought a bull to the factory for a neighbour one night and quickly learned that there was bigger reason than just being old that he was being got rid. Thought he was gonna make sh1te of everything that night

I'd never sell on something dangerous or not straight.
My old man always taught me to treat people as I expect to be treated myself and it's a good motto.

Bellview

kay 9 wrote: »

I'd never sell on something dangerous or not straight.
My old man always taught me to treat people as I expect to be treated myself and it's a good motto.

Nicely said and very true

Sheep breeder

kay 9 wrote: »

Loaded up and gone this evening. He rattled 40 shades out of the jfc meal bin whilst waiting and did some roaring when he knew he was going up on trailer.
The lad that brought him wouldn't go near him. I was like McGiver in the pen but he went up the trailer handy enough in the end.
Was a love/hate relationship with him but I can actually walk around the cows now without looking over my shoulder.

I find it hard and maybe harder than most lads to get rid of stock as I get attached to them, but when it comes to safety folks don't take any chances.
I felt instant relief and a sense of safety in the yard with him gone.

Well done and the cure for that lad is the back legs in the air.

kay 9

Someone was curious how much he'd make

Water John

kay 9 wrote: »

Someone was curious how much he'd make

It wouldn't cover the consultants fee, if you ended up in hospital, better gone.

893bet

Tis terrible money when you look at the weight and grade. Willing to bet the meat goes into the same packages as the 24 month heifer.

White Clover

893bet wrote: »

Tis terrible money when you look at the weight and grade. Willing to bet the meat goes into the same packages as the 24 month heifer.

Seemed like a proper Angus bull. A lot of Angus stock bulls down here in the south would struggle to grade R.

Water John

The customer knows nothing about grade. It's on these animals the super margins are made.

Bellview

White Clover wrote: »

Seemed like a proper Angus bull. A lot of Angus stock bulls down here in the south would struggle to grade R.

True ..but part of problem is the so e farmers more worried about price on day buying than quality of animal.. last week in carrick one angus sold for 1000 .. a bad yoke and badly mannered in the ring .. what odds a dealer bought him to come down south...