Installing a Mira Elite QT

islanderre

Hello,

I have an en suite with a shower supplied with pumped hot & cold water but would like to fit a Mira Elite QT in this shower too....
I have the space and was gifted the Mira.

This is where the shower will be fitted:

[IMG][/img]

The water feed for the shower is where I'm undecided;
would it suffice to tap into this tank which feeds the toilets?
or
should I fit a dedicated tank @ the gable above the ensuite thus giving maximum head for the shower?

[IMG][/img]

[IMG][/img]

The cold feed to the shower; is it best to go with the plastic yellow pipe or should I go with copper pipe?

I'll be doing all this myself except for the electrical connection @ the board..... unsurprisingly no plumber is interested due to the confined space within the attic!!!!

Any thoughts , comments or suggestions welcome.

Thanks

islanderre

Morning folks,

Any input at all on the above?

Mainly.... Is it best to install a header tank for the shower or is it sufficient to tap into the toilet header tank?

Sleeper12

You weren't gifted the Mira Elite Qt. It was inflicted on you. Its no longer on the market because it was the most troublesome Pumped electric shower ever. My advice is to buy a Triton t90sr silent shower in Woodies for 230 euros and save yourself a lot of heartache. You'll end up replacing the mira within 2 to 3 years most likely anyway but changing to the triton at that stage will leave holes in the tiles.

Drain down the main cold water tank and drill a hole about an inch from the bottom, for a half inch tank connector. Put on a leaver valve.

Don't run any cables. Most electricians won't /can't cert someone else's work

islanderre

Sleeper12,

Many thanks for the post above....
Feck it anyway...
Didn't know the new Mira were that bad.... We've an old Mira (elite 2 I think) at home for over 15 years.... Operating grand.

I'll see can the Mira be returned for a Triton....

Thanks again

Sleeper12

islanderre wrote:

I'll see can the Mira be returned for a Triton....

Maybe you have a mira Elite SE rather than a mira Elite Qt? They haven't made the mira Elite Qt in about 2 years. This was a terrible shower. The Mira Elite SE isn't as bad but still not a good quality shower

Lenar3556

And what happened Mira? They used to be a good shower!

islanderre

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Maybe you have a mira Elite SE rather than a mira Elite Qt? They haven't made the mira Elite Qt in about 2 years. This was a terrible shower. The Mira Elite SE isn't as bad but still not a good quality shower

Just checked.... It is a Mira Elite QT.....
Feck it anyway!!!!

Thanks for the info Sleeper12

Lenar3556

islanderre wrote: »

Hello,

I have an en suite with a shower supplied with pumped hot & cold water but would like to fit a Mira Elite QT in this shower too....
I have the space and was gifted the Mira.

This is where the shower will be fitted:

[IMG][/img]

The water feed for the shower is where I'm undecided;
would it suffice to tap into this tank which feeds the toilets?
or
should I fit a dedicated tank @ the gable above the ensuite thus giving maximum head for the shower?

[IMG][/img]

[IMG][/img]

The cold feed to the shower; is it best to go with the plastic yellow pipe or should I go with copper pipe?

I'll be doing all this myself except for the electrical connection @ the board..... unsurprisingly no plumber is interested due to the confined space within the attic!!!!

Any thoughts , comments or suggestions welcome.

Thanks

There really is no benefit in an additional tank(s)

islanderre

Lenar3556 wrote: »

There really is no benefit in an additional tank(s)

Sound Lenar....

Only considered the extra tank might give a bit more head pressure to the shower.

Thanks for the reply

forestgirl

I have the mira elite dual pumped electric shower and its really good a its very quiet only a buzz from it but they are nearly €400

Lenar3556

islanderre wrote: »

Sound Lenar....

Only considered the extra tank might give a bit more head pressure to the shower.

Thanks for the reply

It’s the height of the tank vs the outlet that dictates that, so no benefit. As a rough guide 10Metres height = approx 1 bar.

The main bottleneck with electric showers relates to how quickly they can heat the water, so you won’t really see any benefit in having a large capacity water supply to it.

Out of curiosity why the need for the electric shower in addition to what you have?
Going from a pumped shower using stored water to an electric can feel like a real come down! The water flow is likely to be substantially less.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote:

Out of curiosity why the need for the electric shower in addition to what you have? Going from a pumped shower using stored water to an electric can feel like a real come down! The water flow is likely to be substantially less.

A lot of our customers have this setup. Power shower for when there a tank of hot water. This probably covers 6 months of the year while heating is on. The electric shower is handy for when hot water cylinder has no hot water. Some people would use the electric shower in the summer months. The advantage of the summer months is you will get an extra litre of water per minute because the temperature in the attic is higher so slightly better pressure

islanderre

Lenar3556 wrote: »

It’s the height of the tank vs the outlet that dictates that, so no benefit. As a rough guide 10Metres height = approx 1 bar.

The main bottleneck with electric showers relates to how quickly they can heat the water, so you won’t really see any benefit in having a large capacity water supply to it.

Out of curiosity why the need for the electric shower in addition to what you have?
Going from a pumped shower using stored water to an electric can feel like a real come down! The water flow is likely to be substantially less.

As above I was gifted the Mira having been heard complain about waiting on the immersion to heat the water in the summer and not wanting to fire up the central heating boiler.

No solar fitted either as I find it hard to justify the price.

islanderre

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A lot of our customers have this setup. Power shower for when there a tank of hot water. This probably covers 6 months of the year while heating is on. The electric shower is handy for when hot water cylinder has no hot water. Some people would use the electric shower in the summer months. The advantage of the summer months is you will get an extra litre of water per minute because the temperature in the attic is higher so slightly better pressure

That's it in nutshell!!!!

Lenar3556

Ok, understand.
But if you insulate the hot water cylinder sufficiently it should cost relatively little to keep it hot all the time.

John.G

Here are the brochured heat losses from I think the Tribune range of HW cylinders.

Model (Capacity)
Standing Heat Loss (kWh/24hrs) 120ltr 1.05, 150ltr 1.23, 180ltr 1.32, 210ltr 1.58, 250ltr 1.84, 300ltr 2.1.

If you wish to calculate the heat loss use thic calc.
(Kwh*860/cyl.vol/24) in Deg.C/hour

ie the 210 lire will loose 1.58*860/210/24, 0.27C/hr.
the 300 lire will loose 2.10*860/300/24, 0.25C/hr.

In practice, some report (generally) ~ 0.4C/litre/hour.

Lenar3556

Seems pretty reasonable to me for the benefit of always having hot water on demand. €0.15 per day ish would probably do it, and even at that, most if not all of the heat is ‘lost’ into the house itself contributing to beneficial space heating at least for half the year.

I’m not convinced you would get your money back anytime soon on the investment of installing an electric shower in parallel to a stored system.

Maybe I’m missing the point

islanderre

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Seems pretty reasonable to me for the benefit of always having hot water on demand. €0.15 per day ish would probably do it, and even at that, most if not all of the heat is ‘lost’ into the house itself contributing to beneficial space heating at least for half the year.

I’m not convinced you would get your money back anytime soon on the investment of installing an electric shower in parallel to a stored system.

Maybe I’m missing the point

For me anyway it's the convenience of simply jumping into the shower after work..... Coming home to an empty house...PITA waiting on the immersion.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Seems pretty reasonable to me for the benefit of always having hot water on demand. €0.15 per day ish would probably do it, and even at that, most if not all of the heat is ‘lost’ into the house itself contributing to beneficial space heating at least for half the year.

I’m not convinced you would get your money back anytime soon on the investment of installing an electric shower in parallel to a stored system.

Maybe I’m missing the point

15c is just on heat loss. You have to pay to heat up the water first before you worry about heat loss. Electric showers are A energy rated. It's the cheapest 10 minute shower you can have, with the exception of solar heated water. It's far cheaper shower using an electric shower than oil, gas or electric immersion. I have a 3 bar pump that puts out over 20 litres per minute of pure heaven so I am with you on shower enjoyment compared to electric shower. This shower enjoyment comes at a cost though

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

15c is just on heat loss. You have to pay to heat up the water first before you worry about heat loss. Electric showers are A energy rated. It's the cheapest 10 minute shower you can have, with the exception of solar heated water. It's far cheaper shower using an electric shower than oil, gas or electric immersion. I have a 3 bar pump that puts out over 20 litres per minute of pure heaven so I am with you on shower enjoyment compared to electric shower. This shower enjoyment comes at a cost though

Well the distribution and storage losses are really all I need to consider vs instantaneous shower. Heating the water is going to be at the same cost or less than having the shower do it. (Using gas / oil or nightsaver tariffs are likely to be a lower cost than running the shower)

Granted the shower flow rates could change the dynamic greatly - but in fairness that is a personal preference. The individual could turn down the flow for at least part of the shower duration if desired!

Fitting a new electric shower from scratch I would imagine could get into the better part of €1000. Would you have that back in 10 years vs simply leaving the immersion on? I’m not convinced!

Lenar3556

islanderre wrote: »

For me anyway it's the convenience of simply jumping into the shower after work..... Coming home to an empty house...PITA waiting on the immersion.

What I’m getting at is why turn off the immersion?

If it’s reasonably well insulated leaving it on 24 hrs a day is unlikely to be as expensive as you might think.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote:

Well the distribution and storage losses are really all I need to consider vs instantaneous shower. Heating the water is going to be at the same cost or less than having the shower do it. (Using gas / oil or nightsaver tariffs are likely to be a lower cost than running the shower)

This is my point. The electric shower is far cheaper to run than heating your hot water by immersion, gas or oil. A 10 minute shower in a power shower will cost a lot more than a 10 minute shower in an electric shower. The only exception here is solar.

Lenar3556

But why would it? Where is this additional expense in using what he has already and keeping it hot all the time?

You mentioned oil - the price of which has increased a little recently. But assuming 1000 litres costs €600. And a litre has a gross KW value of 10KW - even allowing a rather excessive 40% of additional total losses actually leaves a running coat cheaper than an instantaneous electric shower.

Of course, I fully accept that using high water flows naturally will use more energy, and someone having a shower may have the option of this with a stored system that they wouldn’t with an electric shower.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote:

But why would it? Where is this additional expense in using what he has already and keeping it hot all the time?

I believe op wants an electric shower for the months that they don't have the heating on

Lenar3556 wrote:

You mentioned oil - the price of which has increased a little recently. But assuming 1000 litres costs €600. And a litre has a gross KW value of 10KW - even allowing a rather excessive 40% of additional total losses actually leaves a running coat cheaper than an instantaneous electric shower.

There is a lot to factor in when working these things out. Electricity is 100 percent efficient. Oil & gas aren't. Even the most efficient oil and gas boilers are only that efficient when they have been running for a while. It takes a while for a boiler to start condensing. It's a bit like a petrol or diesel car. They are more efficient when the engine warms up.

Believe it or not its cheaper to heat a small amount of water in the hot water cylinder by using the electric immersion than by oil or gas. Oil and gas are better value if you are heating up the whole cylinder. Once the cylinder is fully heated and you use a small amount of water its expensive to top it up using oil or gas unless you are already running the boiler fot the heating.

An electric shower is even cheaper again than all of the above when looking at a 10 minute shower.

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I believe op wants an electric shower for the months that they don't have the heating on




There is a lot to factor in when working these things out. Electricity is 100 percent efficient. Oil & gas aren't. Even the most efficient oil and gas boilers are only that efficient when they have been running for a while. It takes a while for a boiler to start condensing. It's a bit like a petrol or diesel car. They are more efficient when the engine warms up.

Believe it or not its cheaper to heat a small amount of water in the hot water cylinder by using the electric immersion than by oil or gas. Oil and gas are better value if you are heating up the whole cylinder. Once the cylinder is fully heated and you use a small amount of water its expensive to top it up using oil or gas unless you are already running the boiler fot the heating.

An electric shower is even cheaper again than all of the above when looking at a 10 minute shower.

Well in the example above, I allowed 40% more oil to cover all of these factors which I think exceeds what they actually are. I agree you have to consider storage and distribution efficiency factors with oil, but bear in mind the gross price per KW of oil is about 30% of electricity so there is lots to play with.

I must admit I have seen nothing that would demonstrate to me that an electric shower is in general terms significantly cheaper than drawing water from a properly constructed cylinder arrangement maintained hot 24 hours day. (Be it heated with oil or electricity)

If you had the two systems already installed within a house, I do accept that the cost of having a shower in one vs the other wouldn’t be that much different - but going to the expense of installing an electric shower in addition to a stored system on the premise that it will save you money vs having the cylinder on 24/7 is highly unlikely to ever offer a return on investment.

If I was the OP I would;
1. Use oil or gas to heat my cylinder 24/7/365 if he has a separate zone in which to do so.

2. If the central heating system isn’t zoned, just leave the immersion heater on full time, and explore switching to dual tariff metering in a manner than will heat the cylinder every night at off-peak electricity.

He’ll have a better performing shower, instant hot water, less to go wrong, and for well under €100 per year more than he is paying at present.
Put the price of installing an electric shower into something else.

Just my thoughts from what I see, always open to correction, but I’m facts hungry!

Wearb

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Well in the example above, I allowed 40% more oil to cover all of these factors which I think exceeds what they actually are. I agree you have to consider storage and distribution efficiency factors with oil, but bear in mind the gross price per KW of oil is about 30% of electricity so there is lots to play with.

I must admit I have seen nothing that would demonstrate to me that an electric shower is in general terms significantly cheaper than drawing water from a properly constructed cylinder arrangement maintained hot 24 hours day. (Be it heated with oil or electricity)

If you had the two systems already installed within a house, I do accept that the cost of having a shower in one vs the other wouldn’t be that much different - but going to the expense of installing an electric shower in addition to a stored system on the premise that it will save you money vs having the cylinder on 24/7 is highly unlikely to ever offer a return on investment.

If I was the OP I would;
1. Use oil or gas to heat my cylinder 24/7/365 if he has a separate zone in which to do so.

2. If the central heating system isn’t zoned, just leave the immersion heater on full time, and explore switching to dual tariff metering in a manner than will heat the cylinder every night at off-peak electricity.

He’ll have a better performing shower, instant hot water, less to go wrong, and for well under €100 per year more than he is paying at present.
Put the price of installing an electric shower into something else.

Just my thoughts from what I see, always open to correction, but I’m facts hungry!

Have you looked at JohnG's figures above. The heat loss over a 24 hr period is substantial, when multiplied by 365, even taking seasonal temps into account.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote:

I must admit I have seen nothing that would demonstrate to me that an electric shower is in general terms significantly cheaper than drawing water from a properly constructed cylinder arrangement maintained hot 24 hours day. (Be it heated with oil or electricity)

This has been hashed out time and again on several threads. Electric shower is the cheapest way to have a 10 minute shower with the exception of solar heated water. Heating a small amount of water by gas or oil is actually more expensive than heating the same amount with the immersion. If you want to heat up the full cylinder then gas or oil are better value

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This has been hashed out time and again on several threads. Electric shower is the cheapest way to have a 10 minute shower with the exception of solar heated water. Heating a small amount of water by gas or oil is actually more expensive than heating the same amount with the immersion. If you want to heat up the full cylinder then gas or oil are better value

And those statements are probably all true in their own right, but they don’t get to krups of it - which is the cost benefit of installing an additional electric shower vs maintaining stored hot water 24/7.

Sleeper12

Lenar3556 wrote:

And those statements are probably all true in their own right, but they don’t get to krups of it - which is the cost benefit of installing an additional electric shower vs maintaining stored hot water 24/7.

Why install anything then? Solar has a 10 year payback but when you factor in service & maintenance every 18 months then it is close to a 20 years pay back. Then you fool yourself about all the free water you can use & you spend 1k installing a decent power shower because the hot water is free.

At the end of the day the electric shower will pay for itself after a few years. In some homes they have absolutely no hot water in the cylinder for half of the year when the heating isn't in use

Lenar3556

Wearb wrote: »

Have you looked at JohnG's figures above. The heat loss over a 24 hr period is substantial, when multiplied by 365, even taking seasonal temps into account.

I did, but actually thought they were quite reasonable.

A 150 litre cylinder losing 1.23KW per day for example.
If we maintained it at temperature with an oil boiler and for arguments sake allowed a massive 50% inefficiency to allow for boiler losses and pipe work losses up to the cylinder - It’s still only costing €53.87 a year to keep it hot.

(Oil at €0.60 per litre, 10KW/Litre of Kero)

Then you have to consider that much of these heat ‘losses’ are actually transferred into the thermal envelope of the house.

Lenar3556

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Why install anything then? Solar has a 10 year payback but when you factor in service & maintenance every 18 months then it is close to a 20 years pay back. Then you fool yourself about all the free water you can use & you spend 1k installing a decent power shower because the hot water is free.

At the end of the day the electric shower will pay for itself after a few years. In some homes they have absolutely no hot water in the cylinder for half of the year when the heating isn't in use

Agree on solar. I wouldn’t see any return on it.

I know they do, and that’s fine. But if they had a power shower, and were thinking about fitting an electric in addition......in order to have an instant shower and save money......that’s where I would say there appears no sense to it as the electric shower would never pay for itself.

kravmaga

forestgirl wrote: »

I have the mira elite dual pumped electric shower and its really good a its very quiet only a buzz from it but they are nearly €400

You were overcharged, I bought the same in Davies in Harmonstown for €320 all in , including VAT.

greenbeach

Hi all

I have a Mira Elite QT Electric Shower Install some years ago

I have started using it for the last few weeks It got very little use since it was installed,

When I stop and start the shower when in use the water is over temperature at the beginning for a short time ,

Is this normal,

Sleeper12

Electric showers aren't supposed to be turned off & on again quickly.

There is a sealed heating can with 2 elements. When you turn off the water the element is still hot and continues to heat up the water that is no longer flowing through the shower. When you turn on the shower again this very hot water comes out. A safety device kicks in killing electricity to the element until the water in the heating can runs cold.

YoTaro

@Sleeper12

Could you recommend me a shower please?

I have an old Mira Elite ST that has just stopped working.

In your opinion what shower should I replace with?

Thanks

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986955#Comment_119986955

You have 3 options. Triton T90SR, Triton T900PSR, Mira Elite SE.

Triton T90sr is the best but different footprint. 95% of the time we can make this work when replacing a Mira Elite. Next is the Triton T900PSR. This is also a silent shower & the same footprint as the Mira. Last cones the Mira Elite SE. It's a direct replacement