The cruelty in ham, pork and bacon.

auspicious

In Ireland, tail-docking is still the most utilised control mechanism to combat tail biting, but biting is still widespread even in tail-docked pigs. In addition, as pig farms are almost all fully slatted, bedding type material cannot be provided. Thus, the opinions, and practices of farmers in countries like Ireland, which may need to make significant adaptations to typical pig management systems soon..
Fifty-eight farmers from 21 Counties responded with an average herd size of 710 ± 597 sows (range 90–3000 sows). Only two farms had experienced no biting in the last year. Of the farms that had experienced tail biting (88%), 86% had also experienced ear biting.
Ear biting occurred most commonly in the 2nd stage (approximately 47–81 days from weaning) weaner and tail biting in the finishing stage. 
( only )Sixty-fivepercent of respondents added additional enrichment following an outbreak [ of biting ].

Despite widespread tail docking (>99% of pigs) evidence of tail biting is prevalent in Irish pig production, with tail lesions observed in 58.1 and 72.5% of pigs at the abattoirs. More recently, moderate and severe (complete removal of the tail) lesions were observed in 25.2 and 3.1% of Irish abattoir pigs. The proportion of Irish pigs with ‘moderate’ damage is like the 34.6% of Finnish pigs observed to have tail damage 
In both Finland and Sweden tail docking is forbidden, and thus the lower levels of tail injury are likely due to better management than in Irish pig farms. For instance, in Sweden there is a ban on fully slatted floors in all pig housing, as well as higher standards for air quality and light provision than the EU standard.

Tail biting injuries can be minor, or so severe that the tail is bitten to the rump and the animal may need to be euthanized.
Victims are also likely to suffer more frequently from other health disorders than pigs with non-bitten tails (leg disorders and arthritis. Secondary infection may occur in the lungs, and less commonly in the kidneys and other parts of the body, as a result of pyaemia [15]. Furthermore, wounds caused by tail biting can lead to an increased risk of infection and have been associated with being important in the primary transmission of trichinosis [15].

Factors such as stress , restricted feed access, insufficient diet , high stocking density, early weaning , poor ventilation/incorrect temperature , breed and lack of enrichment are all hypothesised to play a part in causing biting outbreaks. Indeed 25 different hazards were used in the EFSA [33] risk assessment for tail biting, and 83 risk factors were identified by Taylor et al. [34] using a combination of literature review and expert opinion.

Condemnation ( the throwing way of unusable carcasses that have sustained too much damage , while the pig was alive ) and loss of productivity remained the biggest concerns [ of the farmers ] with both receiving an average of 4 (most serious). Condemnation in particular was given a score of 4 (most serious) by 79% of respondents. Other negatives (21%) discussed included the pressure on already limited space caused by having to isolate pigs, the welfare of the bitten pigs and loosing pigs due to paralysis.

https://porcinehealthmanagement.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40813-019-0135-8


The Minister of Agriculture prohibited the docking of dogs' tails in the 2014 statute.

It's shouldn't be an ethical quandary for the consumer really. When you know about what the animals are subjected to and the suffering, you simply boycott the products.
Use a plant-based alternative.

https://freefromharm.org/vegan-recipes/vegan-bacon/

Thelonious Monk

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pigs-video-computer-game-joystick-intelligent-b1800926.html

Just shows how intelligent pigs are, and nearly all factory farmed in horrific conditions in Ireland and elsewhere. I wish this kind of thing got more air time it might push people away from eating pigs.

Another article here on the horrible way in which they're often killed

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/pigs-carbon-dioxide-co2-bacon-sausage-slaughter-house-meat-industry-a9132006.html

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pigs-video-computer-game-joystick-intelligent-b1800926.html

Just shows how intelligent pigs are, and nearly all factory farmed in horrific conditions in Ireland and elsewhere. I wish this kind of thing got more air time it might push people away from eating pigs.

Another article here on the horrible way in which they're often killed

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/pigs-carbon-dioxide-co2-bacon-sausage-slaughter-house-meat-industry-a9132006.html

Your statement that "nearly all factory farmed in horrific conditions in Ireland" is untrue.
Nothing surprising there btw.
Under EU law, pigs are reared in loose housing with various toys provided for stimulation.

The article you quote referring to gassing of pigs is from South America. It's a one sided article. Truth is we don't know if that article is credible. I don't think there are many from there reading boards.ie. that could shed some light on the subject.

Thelonious Monk

In Ireland, pigs never seeing the light of day their entire lives and kept in cramped conditions is horrific to me. <Snip>

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In Ireland, pigs never seeing the light of day their entire lives and kept in cramped conditions is horrific to me. Should we maybe have a committee of farmers who review our posts first to see if they can be posted or not?

There are EU laws governing floor space per animal. Loose housing is not "cramped conditions".
I suspect that you do not know what the term "loose housing" means.
<Snip>

Thelonious Monk

Do you really think people on this forum are going to think the way pigs are farmed is anything but cruel?
You wouldn't keep a dog indoors for its whole life. There are all kinds of horror stories regarding pig farming in Ireland that have been reported in the news over the years.

carfinder

Bricktop in the movie Snatch had an interesting take on keeping pigs :pac:

Meeoow

White Clover wrote: »

Your statement that "nearly all factory farmed in horrific conditions in Ireland" is untrue.
Nothing surprising there btw.
Under EU law, pigs are reared in loose housing with various toys provided for stimulation.

The article you quote referring to gassing of pigs is from South America. It's a one sided article. Truth is we don't know if that article is credible. I don't think there are many from there reading boards.ie. that could shed some light on the subject.

You're a farmer are you? I suppose you are going to justify animal cruelty.
Most farming is cruel. Using animals to make money is cruel.
Because of the regulations here regarding pigs, most pork here is not Irish.
What about the recent fire up the North where 200 sows were burnt alive. They couldn't escape because they were in gestation cages, bless them.

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Do you really think people on this forum are going to think the way pigs are farmed is anything but cruel?
You wouldn't keep a dog indoors for its whole life. There are all kinds of horror stories regarding pig farming in Ireland that have been reported in the news over the years.

Many dogs and indeed cats never see the light of day.
In fact, we had someone on another thread on this forum not too long ago come to the conclusion that,
A cat kept indoors = Not cruel
While, A cow out grazing in the fields = Cruel.
The logic behind that line of thinking boggles the mind.
On your last point, you are insinuating that this is a regular and common occurrence which again is untrue.

Nekarsulm

Meeoow wrote: »

Most farming is cruel. Using animals to make money is cruel.

Do you include tillage farmers in this sweeping and erroneous statement?
Cause if you are, dunno who's gonna grow your food...

White Clover

Meeoow wrote: »

You're a farmer are you? I suppose you are going to justify animal cruelty.
Most farming is cruel. Using animals to make money is cruel.
Because of the regulations here regarding pigs, most pork here is not Irish.
What about the recent fire up the North where 200 sows were burnt alive. They couldn't escape because they were in gestation cages, bless them.

Yes, I am a farmer. You don't know anything about me, so what on earth makes you think that i would ever condone cruelty, I have stated my position on this many times.
The remainder of your post is whataboutery and hearsay.

_Brian

We keep pigs for the table here on a small scale.
They are in a traditional farmer straw bed shed and have access to freely go out and roam and root.

They are not topped or tailed and never ever see biting or antisocial behaviour.

Pigs kept in their natural environment are fine.

Thelonious Monk

_Brian wrote: »

We keep pigs for the table here on a small scale.
They are in a traditional farmer straw bed shed and have access to freely go out and roam and root.

They are not topped or tailed and never ever see biting or antisocial behaviour.

Pigs kept in their natural environment are fine.

I agree, I've been on a farm where they were kept like that and they looked like they were having a great time tbh!
What do you think of the farms I'm talking about though, as a farmer yourself?

Thelonious Monk

White Clover wrote: »

Many dogs and indeed cats never see the light of day.
In fact, we had someone on another thread on this forum not too long ago come to the conclusion that,
A cat kept indoors = Not cruel
While, A cow out grazing in the fields = Cruel.
The logic behind that line of thinking boggles the mind.
On your last point, you are insinuating that this is a regular and common occurrence which again is untrue.

https://t-stor.teagasc.ie/handle/11019/2142

This survey says 86% of farms experience ear and tail biting, so I think poor conditions are the norm in Ireland.
You're not a pig farmer as far as I know, I'm not talking about your cows in the fields so there's no need to bring that up.

Seve OB

A pigs orgasm lasts 30 minutes.
Just saying!

Nekarsulm

I was a pig farmer for about 15 years, keeping about 150 at a time .
Bought as weaners and fattened.
In that time, I think I had two cases of tail biting.
Both times in the pen with the big window and the most light, so make of that what you will.
So yeah, my farm experienced it.
But to claim it's a regular occurrence is just nonsense., although it does suit the statistics of certain groups.

White Clover

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://t-stor.teagasc.ie/handle/11019/2142

This survey says 86% of farms experience ear and tail biting, so I think poor conditions are the norm in Ireland.
You're not a pig farmer as far as I know, I'm not talking about your cows in the fields so there's no need to bring that up.

You're trying to say that every pig on those farms has been bitten, that is not true.
I can guarantee you that if a farmer sees an animal getting injured, he/she will intervene and do their best to ensure it doesn't happen again.
There will be scraps between animals on a regular basis, they are not robots.
Only this evening, I was watching 2 ewes having a battle for a few minutes.

_Brian

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I agree, I've been on a farm where they were kept like that and they looked like they were having a great time tbh!
What do you think of the farms I'm talking about though, as a farmer yourself?

I’m in favour of pigs and indeed all farmed animals being kept in conditions as close as is possible to their natural habitat.
It wouldn’t facilitate the same output amd would result in more expensive meats, which would result in less bit better more ethical meat being consumed.

Not a popular position across the board but it’s my position.

It’s a great comfort to us that our pork, bacon, beef, eggs amd chicken are off our farm, I know their conditions amd feel they are a more natural habitat and the foods are superior. They have lower carbon footprint and support better environment and biodiversity.

Thelonious Monk

White Clover wrote: »

You're trying to say that every pig on those farms has been bitten, that is not true.
I can guarantee you that if a farmer sees an animal getting injured, he/she will intervene and do their best to ensure it doesn't happen again.
There will be scraps between animals on a regular basis, they are not robots.
Only this evening, I was watching 2 ewes having a battle for a few minutes.

Here's another research paper from Ireland

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332061638_Pig_farmers_attitudes_towards_sickinjured_pigs_in_relation_to_care_and_rehabilitation_the_use_of_medication_and_euthanasia

Many producers mentioned that it is too expensive to call a vet to treat or to euthanise sick or injured pigs. Only one producer used a vet to euthanise pigs

The whole thing is just horrible, they shouldn't be kept in cramped conditions like that in those numbers.
Anyway we'll never agree, you think it's ok, I don't, let's just leave it at that.

NcdJd

I don't know much about pigs other than giving waste vegetables to a local pig man years ago. I see there are a couple of pig producers ( including one in NCD ) that raise pigs as free range, if that's the term to use, similar to what Brian does with his pigs. You'd never see this stuff on a supermarket shelf though.

I would think alot of farmers would be interested in this type of production if consumers and supermarkets were interested. Like most forms of food production nowadays everything has to be cheap and mass produced.

Gary kk

Pigs didn't learn to play games pigs learned to do a task to get a treat.

maidhc

NcdJd wrote: »

I don't know much about pigs other than giving waste vegetables to a local pig man years ago. I see there are a couple of pig producers ( including one in NCD ) that raise pigs as free range, if that's the term to use, similar to what Brian does with his pigs. You'd never see this stuff on a supermarket shelf though.

I would think alot of farmers would be interested in this type of production if consumers and supermarkets were interested. Like most forms of food production nowadays everything has to be cheap and mass produced.

Agreed, the problem lies with Joe public and supermarkets who care more for pricing than anything else. I run a beef farm, it’s technically organic, but the additional cost in being certified and not using any artificial fertilisers at all (I use practically none) isn’t worth it.

If people paid for their food...

Meeoow

maidhc wrote: »

Agreed, the problem lies with Joe public and supermarkets who care more for pricing than anything else. I run a beef farm, it’s technically organic, but the additional cost in being certified and not using any artificial fertilisers at all (I use practically none) isn’t worth it.

If people paid for their food...

So true. People want cheap food, and throw half of it into the bin. It breaks my heart to see people getting a big dinner, then binning half of it. Some poor animal had a sh1t life and death, to end up scraped into a bin.
I am all for organic meat and would be willing to pay for it. I got a free range ham from M&S for Xmas, and it was far superior to the intensively farmed crap.
Where do you sell your beef?

HansKroenke

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pigs-video-computer-game-joystick-intelligent-b1800926.html

Just shows how intelligent pigs are, and nearly all factory farmed in horrific conditions in Ireland and elsewhere. I wish this kind of thing got more air time it might push people away from eating pigs.

Another article here on the horrible way in which they're often killed

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/pigs-carbon-dioxide-co2-bacon-sausage-slaughter-house-meat-industry-a9132006.html

What's promising is seeing pork processing companies introduce vegan products. Clonakilty, Rudds and Dennys all offer vegan sausages and pudding. If those at the coalface of the cruelty practices are starting to introduce these products, it's a sliver of hope that one day we won't see them or anyone slaughtering pigs for processing and eating anymore.

Nekarsulm

HansKroenke wrote: »

What's promising is seeing pork processing companies introduce vegan products. Clonakilty, Rudds and Dennys all over vegan sausages and pudding. If those at the coalface of the cruelty practices are starting to introduce these products, it's a sliver of hope that one day we won't see them or anyone slaughtering pigs for processing and eating anymore.

What some Vegans seem to misunderstand is that pork processing companies are not in business to persue an ideology , they are there to make a profit.
There is good money to be made selling ultra processed substances to Vegans, and manipulating it to look, taste and smell like meat.
Pay enough for these products, and the companies will cater for the demand.
However the majority of people will buy what they can afford, coupled with what they enjoy the taste of.

HansKroenke

Nekarsulm wrote: »

What some Vegans seem to misunderstand is that pork processing companies are not in business to persue an ideology , they are there to make a profit.
There is good money to be made selling ultra processed substances to Vegans, and manipulating it to look, taste and smell like meat.
Pay enough for these products, and the companies will cater for the demand.
However the majority of people will buy what they can afford, coupled with what they enjoy the taste of.

Okay but what does that have to do with slaughtering and processing pig carcases? Sausages, pudding etc is ultra processed and I would have paid these companies for those products before I stopped eating meat.

At least now I can eat my delicious pork-like products without a need to involve the poor pig. That's the key point here and within this thread; the cruelty aspect.

enfant terrible

HansKroenke wrote: »

Okay but what does that have to do with slaughtering and processing pig carcases? Sausages, pudding etc is ultra processed and I would have paid these companies for those products before I stopped eating meat.

At least now I can eat my delicious pork-like products without a need to involve the poor pig. That's the key point here and within this thread; the cruelty aspect.

What products would you recommend and where do you get them?

Stihl waters

maidhc wrote: »

Agreed, the problem lies with Joe public

If people paid for their food...

This type of argument is too simplistic to boil it all down to joe public wanting cheaper food, especially when food production is subsidised to keep it cheap, If you want joe public to pay for their food then the only way is for Europe to remove subsidies and let the market find it's own balance, as long as producers are being paid to rear animals before they even sell the product then it will always be a race to the bottom

I'm sure you shop around when buying your beef nuts, diesel, straw or building a shed, would you pay an extra 50 euro a ton bulk feed if another supplier was cheaper, why do you think joe public should be any different

HansKroenke

enfant terrible wrote: »

What products would you recommend and where do you get them?

It depends what you like. I want products that taste very similar to the pork version. So, Dennys or Rudds sausages and Clonakilty white pudding. You can get both in Tesco and Super Valu. For crispy, American style bacon that is actually unreal, is the M&S bacon. It's quite expensive though but incredible; salty, crispy and even has the fatty texture.

I'm heading out to get the above now with hash browns, mushrooms and buttered toast for a breakfast feed. Starving after typing that and I live near a Super Valu and M&S!

Nekarsulm

HansKroenke wrote: »

Okay but what does that have to do with slaughtering and processing pig carcases? Sausages, pudding etc is ultra processed and I would have paid these companies for those products before I stopped eating meat.

At least now I can eat my delicious pork-like products without a need to involve the poor pig. That's the key point here and within this thread; the cruelty aspect.

The really puzzling aspect of your post is why do you continue to buy products that are engineered to taste like dead pig?

The majority of meat products are not ultra processed, beyond cutting with a knife, and in some cases adding a barbecue sauce .
The "cruelty" aspect is a point of belief, a bit like transubstantiation to Christian's, or Angel's delivering a book to Josept Smith to Mormons.
It's just a belief central to the value system of the group.

anewme

_Brian wrote: »

I’m in favour of pigs and indeed all farmed animals being kept in conditions as close as is possible to their natural habitat.
It wouldn’t facilitate the same output amd would result in more expensive meats, which would result in less bit better more ethical meat being consumed.

Not a popular position across the board but it’s my position.

It’s a great comfort to us that our pork, bacon, beef, eggs amd chicken are off our farm, I know their conditions amd feel they are a more natural habitat and the foods are superior. They have lower carbon footprint and support better environment and biodiversity.

I'll be honest here and say if I felt every farm operated like that, I would probably not have given up eating meat.

I still eat eggs from a local with rescue hens.

What scares me is the race to the bottom to sell a chicken at 2.99. What shortcuts were taken to get that product there?

When I did eat Christmas Turkey, I supported a local free range bronze Turkey farmer. He told me he paid more for the chicks than an end product blast frozen in Brazil.