Beef farm start up advice

Fendtro11

Hi all,

Looking for some advice. I'm currently working full time off farm but looking into a slatted house to keep some finishing stores (store to beef). I'm in no way a well experienced livestock man but just keep six bullock out wintering on a plot. I've just completed the green cert as well and could make use of the young farmers TAMS grant in the next year or two (hopefully it is renewed in some way) to invest.

I'm basically looking for some advice/comments on a suitable set up/ system or any recommendations to expand on this idea? I don't have a lot of land available but probably around 15 acres of grazing ground at the most. I'm well aware of the current situation with beef farming and the challenges however it's either push and go for it or give up on the idea which I don't want to as I do have a passion for farming and it's the only real option i can make a go of. If i was building a shed it would have to be an efficient system that can be operated safely by one person.

Any other advice on keeping say 25 animals for finishing in terms of breeds? smaller breed but keep more? pedigree markets? land rental? Any advice would be incredibly welcome.

Many thanks.

Water John

With small numbers I'd forget the slatted unit, TBH. I'm farming organic and have 30/40 bullocks. Now they have both slats and straw shed but they use a round straw bale every 5 days.
Others will better advice on stock choice, but don't bury money in either buildings or machinery.

With that amount of land would you consider other types of farming?

kk.man

Yea small acreage is really limiting you. Fair play for your passion and getting the green cert. Don't let pessimism drag you down because one should always follow your dreams and if they don't work out then move on.

Slatted sheds are very expensive but with 60% grant it is more attractive. IMO storing cattle over the winter is madness silage, labour, machinery etc is too expensive. Would you consider buying forward stores in the spring and keep finishing them till the grass runs out?

Best of luck.

Charolois 19

Sort of in the same position as yourself, I started with a few sucklers 4 year ago, but im on smaller sized ground too, April to late October was fine, but as soon as the girls hit the sheds is where I found all my money was drained, silage and bedding, no tanks here were deep bedded , whatever was made on the calves and more was eaten up with wintering, I started keeping a running total of costs between my sucklers and a few heifers I bought in for the spring and sold oct bank holiday weekend last, there was no fortune made of them but they left something behind them which did make me smile after so long of spending,
The one thing I was told tho was the day you buy is the day you sell, so I while I wouldn't have the biggest numbers I try to buy the best I can afford instead of the quantity, and it is nice to look at them in the field and take a bit of pride in what your looking at, I kept a few light stock heifers for the winter and there out on a bit of rougher ground with the intention of selling next autumn as bulling heifers or for someone to finish and it keeps the intrest there to and its something to be at, now I don't know if the above will help you in anyway but that was my experience and to be honest the lack of stress and pressure this winter between work and buying fodder is a weight of my shoulders and a lot less of a workload too

Best of luck whatever route you go

K.G.

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Hi all,

Looking for some advice. I'm currently working full time off farm but looking into a slatted house to keep some finishing stores (store to beef). I'm in no way a well experienced livestock man but just keep six bullock out wintering on a plot. I've just completed the green cert as well and could make use of the young farmers TAMS grant in the next year or two (hopefully it is renewed in some way) to invest.

I'm basically looking for some advice/comments on a suitable set up/ system or any recommendations to expand on this idea? I don't have a lot of land available but probably around 15 acres of grazing ground at the most. I'm well aware of the current situation with beef farming and the challenges however it's either push and go for it or give up on the idea which I don't want to as I do have a passion for farming and it's the only real option i can make a go of. If i was building a shed it would have to be an efficient system that can be operated safely by one person.

Any other advice on keeping say 25 animals for finishing in terms of breeds? smaller breed but keep more? pedigree markets? land rental? Any advice would be incredibly welcome.

Many thanks.

Will be scoffed at the purists here but the best business for you is 6 to 10 high cell count fr cows with either 2 or 3 calves sucking.a bit of work buying and get them sucking in the spring but the whole lot gone in November, calves sold in august.

Fendtro11

Water John wrote: »

With small numbers I'd forget the slatted unit, TBH. I'm farming organic and have 30/40 bullocks. Now they have both slats and straw shed but they use a round straw bale every 5 days.
Others will better advice on stock choice, but don't bury money in either buildings or machinery.

With that amount of land would you consider other types of farming?

Water John, thanks for the reply. The only thing that would make a slatted unit justifiable is the potential for a grant, machinery wise I wouldn't be investing much in that. I fortunately have an uncle with machinery that could tie me over so it would be a very small tractor or quad set up anyway.

In terms of other farming I'm really not sure as is this is the only area which I am interested in and could make it work around another job!

trg

K.G. wrote: »

Will be scoffed at the purists here but the best business for you is 6 to 10 high cell count fr cows with either 2 or 3 calves sucking.a bit of work buying and get them sucking in the spring but the whole lot gone in November, calves sold in august.

Interesting. Buying SCC cows that calved in February or so is it? And suck calves born early April?

Might be something in it, docile cows and well done calves.

How would the calves be gone as early as August though? I'm probably missing something

Anto_Meath

KG I know a lad at this, he puts 3 calves on the cows for a while and then 2 later on in the year, fattens the cows and sells her around November, he keeps all the calves until the following spring and sells them then, he started off 4 cows, think he had 12 last year, he is very happy at it and seems to be doing very well. He does mind the calves well and they do look well when he is selling them around the 1st April, he does have them in a straw bedded shed over the winter.

Hard Knocks

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Hi all,

Looking for some advice. I'm currently working full time off farm but looking into a slatted house to keep some finishing stores (store to beef). I'm in no way a well experienced livestock man but just keep six bullock out wintering on a plot. I've just completed the green cert as well and could make use of the young farmers TAMS grant in the next year or two (hopefully it is renewed in some way) to invest.

I'm basically looking for some advice/comments on a suitable set up/ system or any recommendations to expand on this idea? I don't have a lot of land available but probably around 15 acres of grazing ground at the most. I'm well aware of the current situation with beef farming and the challenges however it's either push and go for it or give up on the idea which I don't want to as I do have a passion for farming and it's the only real option i can make a go of. If i was building a shed it would have to be an efficient system that can be operated safely by one person.

Any other advice on keeping say 25 animals for finishing in terms of breeds? smaller breed but keep more? pedigree markets? land rental? Any advice would be incredibly welcome.

Many thanks.

Best of luck
For 25 cattle you’re looking 4 pens whether 2 bay double or 4 single
Have you other sheds at the moment?
An old hay shed could be filled with wood chip and feed barrier at the front
An old cubicle shed could have slatted tank infront
There’s lots of options to reduce your spend

Fendtro11

kk.man wrote: »

Yea small acreage is really limiting you. Fair play for your passion and getting the green cert. Don't let pessimism drag you down because one should always follow your dreams and if they don't work out then move on.

Slatted sheds are very expensive but with 60% grant it is more attractive. IMO storing cattle over the winter is madness silage, labour, machinery etc is too expensive. Would you consider buying forward stores in the spring and keep finishing them till the grass runs out?

Best of luck.

KK.Man thanks for the reply really appreciate it. The only reason I am considering the slatted shed is the fact that I could justify with the grant. I wouldn't be making no major investment machinery wise. I have an uncle with loader etc. that I could use for bigger tasks as and when but the majority would be done through other cheaper ways I'd say! The idea of forward stores in the spring and keep until the grass runs out is interesting. Would you be thinking say buying 18-24 months bullock and then sending them straight to slaughter after grass?

K.G.

Anto_Meath wrote: »

KG I know a lad at this, he puts 3 calves on the cows for a while and then 2 later on in the year, fattens the cows and sells her around November, he keeps all the calves until the following spring and sells them then, he started off 4 cows, think he had 12 last year, he is very happy at it and seems to be doing very well. He does mind the calves well and they do look well when he is selling them around the 1st April, he does have them in a straw bedded shed over the winter.

Its very low investment and running cost with little or silage.all you need is a house with a suitably designed crush and penning area which you will need anyway.what you need is apenn where the cow and calves can be held and that allows acess to the cow morning and evening, should be up and running in a week and then can be left to their own devices. Cows and calves should come in 1000 to 1100 andcould generate 2000 euro with just grass

Fendtro11

Charolois 19 wrote: »

Sort of in the same position as yourself, I started with a few sucklers 4 year ago, but im on smaller sized ground too, April to late October was fine, but as soon as the girls hit the sheds is where I found all my money was drained, silage and bedding, no tanks here were deep bedded , whatever was made on the calves and more was eaten up with wintering, I started keeping a running total of costs between my sucklers and a few heifers I bought in for the spring and sold oct bank holiday weekend last, there was no fortune made of them but they left something behind them which did make me smile after so long of spending,
The one thing I was told tho was the day you buy is the day you sell, so I while I wouldn't have the biggest numbers I try to buy the best I can afford instead of the quantity, and it is nice to look at them in the field and take a bit of pride in what your looking at, I kept a few light stock heifers for the winter and there out on a bit of rougher ground with the intention of selling next autumn as bulling heifers or for someone to finish and it keeps the intrest there to and its something to be at, now I don't know if the above will help you in anyway but that was my experience and to be honest the lack of stress and pressure this winter between work and buying fodder is a weight of my shoulders and a lot less of a workload too

Best of luck whatever route you go

Charolois 19. Thanks for reply. It's very interesting to hear you experience and comparison between the sucklers and the heifers sold in October.

The day you buy is the day you sell is very clear cut and makes sense! When you say buy the best do you mean breed or an animal with good potential for conformation/fat etc.? If I had half a chance at keeping some more hardier bullock out wintering then I'd jump at it.
Very helpful so thank you!

Fendtro11

K.G. wrote: »

Will be scoffed at the purists here but the best business for you is 6 to 10 high cell count fr cows with either 2 or 3 calves sucking.a bit of work buying and get them sucking in the spring but the whole lot gone in November, calves sold in august.

K.G thanks. It sounds a bit more work than just buying and fattening for slaughter! I wouldn't have any experience in that side of things either!

K.G.

trg wrote: »

Interesting. Buying SCC cows that calved in February or so is it? And suck calves born early April?

Might be something in it, docile cows and well done calves.

How would the calves be gone as early as August though? I'm probably missing something

Well maybe not agust for all calves but you would want to be slackening demand to get them to fatten and you will also have to feed maybe a little ration to them to get them away but once you start talking about silage and housing you will kill the margin.i ve done it the odd time over the year's and works best on grass that s not pushed as there is a risk of tetany with good grass but i always had them on poorer blocks.

k mac

My 2 cents and from my own experience, best of luck with it. If you have a passion for it go for it but as others says keep your costs down or you will burn money. I think your best bet by about 15-20 Hereford or angus heifer runners around March and keep them for 7 months let them off again October/November. Not big money to buy and might leave a small few euro, quiet cattle and easy to handle. As other posters said wintering e.g sheds, silage, slurry all big costs. Stay away from finishing as again once you start feeding meal costs rocket.
This is just my opinion, I have been at the game of buying nice continental bullocks and keeping them over winter housed in a slatted shed to finish and never again. At least this system you will still be farming which obviously you have a gra for, but you are not getting into debt and also leaves time for other interests

Charolois 19

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Charolois 19. Thanks for reply. It's very interesting to hear you experience and comparison between the sucklers and the heifers sold in October.

The day you buy is the day you sell is very clear cut and makes sense! When you say buy the best do you mean breed or an animal with good potential for conformation/fat etc.? If I had half a chance at keeping some more hardier bullock out wintering then I'd jump at it.
Very helpful so thank you!

Not at all, I suppose for myself the main reason for changing systems was not having my own ground for silage, I was spending a fortune buying in, and sure on a Saturday then I was running for bales or bedding, and it all adds up, time, wear and tear on the jeep, diesel, and money, like now the yard is only used for dosing, testing ect or leaving a few in while they settle down after buying, once the cattle left this year, I power washed all and its waiting for new cattle to land when the ground is fit to carry them,
As for the cattle, its whatever you like yourself, I have stuck with charolais and love them, my personal preference is good strong heavy animals, fit to carry weight, the heavier the bone and longer they are I like them more, ive never bought on star ratings or any of that, ive no pedigres, just nice well put together animals, I just bought what I liked, a bad one will eat the same as a good one,
I've all my sucklers sold and while I don't regret doing it and all I learned from it, the biggest thing I've taken from it is I dont have the ground to keep stock and cut my own fodder, and im moving on from it to a new system, it probably was an expensive lesson but sure thats how we learn,
The few I have outwintering at the minute arnt a minutes trouble, they have plenty of picking and good shelter, I do keep them dosed regularly because of the wet conditions of winter for fluke/worm, and I fill the round feeder every couple of days, and i throw them a bit of hand feeding each eve on the way home from work, they have a lick bucket just to make sure they get all there minerals and once the better ground comes right ill let them back on my permanent pastures,
I've stuck with the heifers I suppose because I can get a fella who wants to fatten or breed them, weather im better off for it i dont know? But what I can say is smaller ground is no reason to be put off the idea, you just have to make what your keeping pull a punch, quality over quantity any day

Fendtro11

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Best of luck
For 25 cattle you’re looking 4 pens whether 2 bay double or 4 single
Have you other sheds at the moment?
An old hay shed could be filled with wood chip and feed barrier at the front
An old cubicle shed could have slatted tank infront
There’s lots of options to reduce your spend

Hard Knocks, thanks for the reply. Yeah I suppose I was think of that sort of size cost depending with the TAMS grant etc. Unfortunately I don't have other sheds at least none that could be converted anyway.

Fendtro11

K.G. wrote: »

Its very low investment and running cost with little or silage.all you need is a house with a suitably designed crush and penning area which you will need anyway.what you need is apenn where the cow and calves can be held and that allows acess to the cow morning and evening, should be up and running in a week and then can be left to their own devices. Cows and calves should come in 1000 to 1100 andcould generate 2000 euro with just grass

K.G that's interesting. Can you explain a bit more about this so I have it right in my head. Cow is bought and some calves separate, then house them initially in a shed with creep area? After the week or two do you let them out to grass then? You said on down that once silage and housing etc. is brought into it'll kill margin but it is that if you bought them and housed them entirely i.e. didn't put them out to grass? Thanks

Fendtro11

k mac wrote: »

My 2 cents and from my own experience, best of luck with it. If you have a passion for it go for it but as others says keep your costs down or you will burn money. I think your best bet by about 15-20 Hereford or angus heifer runners around March and keep them for 7 months let them off again October/November. Not big money to buy and might leave a small few euro, quiet cattle and easy to handle. As other posters said wintering e.g sheds, silage, slurry all big costs. Stay away from finishing as again once you start feeding meal costs rocket.
This is just my opinion, I have been at the game of buying nice continental bullocks and keeping them over winter housed in a slatted shed to finish and never again. At least this system you will still be farming which obviously you have a gra for, but you are not getting into debt and also leaves time for other interests

K mac thanks for your honest answer there. You mentioned about hereford or angus heifers, any particular benefits over the bullock? Do you mean going down the purebred route? Was it the meal costs etc. the main reason you got out of over wintering the continental bullocks?

Fendtro11

Charolois 19 wrote: »

Not at all, I suppose for myself the main reason for changing systems was not having my own ground for silage, I was spending a fortune buying in, and sure on a Saturday then I was running for bales or bedding, and it all adds up, time, wear and tear on the jeep, diesel, and money, like now the yard is only used for dosing, testing ect or leaving a few in while they settle down after buying, once the cattle left this year, I power washed all and its waiting for new cattle to land when the ground is fit to carry them,
As for the cattle, its whatever you like yourself, I have stuck with charolais and love them, my personal preference is good strong heavy animals, fit to carry weight, the heavier the bone and longer they are I like them more, ive never bought on star ratings or any of that, ive no pedigres, just nice well put together animals, I just bought what I liked, a bad one will eat the same as a good one,
I've all my sucklers sold and while I don't regret doing it and all I learned from it, the biggest thing I've taken from it is I dont have the ground to keep stock and cut my own fodder, and im moving on from it to a new system, it probably was an expensive lesson but sure thats how we learn,
The few I have outwintering at the minute arnt a minutes trouble, they have plenty of picking and good shelter, I do keep them dosed regularly because of the wet conditions of winter for fluke/worm, and I fill the round feeder every couple of days, and i throw them a bit of hand feeding each eve on the way home from work, they have a lick bucket just to make sure they get all there minerals and once the better ground comes right ill let them back on my permanent pastures,
I've stuck with the heifers I suppose because I can get a fella who wants to fatten or breed them, weather im better off for it i dont know? But what I can say is smaller ground is no reason to be put off the idea, you just have to make what your keeping pull a punch, quality over quantity any day

Charolois 19. Yeah I completely understand that. With my limited grazing area even on a rotational paddock system I'd have nothing worth coming off for silage I reckon. Your out-wintering side of things is definitely along the lines of what I'm trying as well, easily managed around my work! What age or weight do you buy in your out-wintering heifers? I think you said you sell them on for finishing again

k mac

Fendtro11 wrote: »

K mac thanks for your honest answer there. You mentioned about hereford or angus heifers, any particular benefits over the bullock? Do you mean going down the purebred route? Was it the meal costs etc. the main reason you got out of over wintering the continental bullocks?

Just think the heifers are easier finished. And reason i suggest Hereford or Angus is they are cheaper buying. Yes the meal costs, I think if you have west of Ireland ground like I have and can't finish off grass it takes too much meal feeding...then there's the price in the factory

AckwelFoley

Would you not look at perhaps pedigree. A few pedigree cows and sell their offspring at say 12 or 18 months.

You don't have enough land to keep 25 cattle to fatten and frankly its not easy to make money if you don't have the numbers.

Water John

Anyone starting would want to keep an eye on what the future payments will be linked to. It applies to all of us, in fact.

Ford4life

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Hi all,

Looking for some advice. I'm currently working full time off farm but looking into a slatted house to keep some finishing stores (store to beef). I'm in no way a well experienced livestock man but just keep six bullock out wintering on a plot. I've just completed the green cert as well and could make use of the young farmers TAMS grant in the next year or two (hopefully it is renewed in some way) to invest.

I'm basically looking for some advice/comments on a suitable set up/ system or any recommendations to expand on this idea? I don't have a lot of land available but probably around 15 acres of grazing ground at the most. I'm well aware of the current situation with beef farming and the challenges however it's either push and go for it or give up on the idea which I don't want to as I do have a passion for farming and it's the only real option i can make a go of. If i was building a shed it would have to be an efficient system that can be operated safely by one person.

Any other advice on keeping say 25 animals for finishing in terms of breeds? smaller breed but keep more? pedigree markets? land rental? Any advice would be incredibly welcome.

Many thanks.

25 store bullocks would want 2.5 ft of headfeed space each roughly if you would be feeding ration/meal on top of the silage, bullocks would produce roughly 35 gallons of **** per week, depending on what zone you are in you might need a lot more storage, we'll say 16 weeks anyway so 35x25x16=14000 gallons of storage required but you may want to allow for 5 months depending on your land if its wet or not and what zone you are in, then allow for 2 feet of water
60ft long shed would allow space for 24 bullocks to feed at the same time so that wouldnt be too bad, the tank would extend out 5 feet either end of the shed then to allow for 2 agitation points
70ft long, 10ft wide, 8ft deep would give you 33,600 gallons of storage which is more than enough, store bullocks sh*t would be very thick so would want nearly 3ft water but would make do with 2ft with a good agitator inside the tank. Wouldnt be very costly for a shed like this with a tams grant
Be no need for cubicles/lie back area for store cattle.
Could have them housed full time on silage and cut all the ground for silage possibly, some fellas make a grass finishing system work and you could try it if ya wanted
Another option would be a roofed shed and keep them on milled peat, great stuff for bedding, will last them ages and keep them very clean
Lowest cost solution would be an outdoor area bedded with woodchip and a feed barrier but i dont know how well that would work for finishing cattle tbh
Hope this helps

kk.man

Fendtro11 wrote: »

KK.Man thanks for the reply really appreciate it. The only reason I am considering the slatted shed is the fact that I could justify with the grant. I wouldn't be making no major investment machinery wise. I have an uncle with loader etc. that I could use for bigger tasks as and when but the majority would be done through other cheaper ways I'd say! The idea of forward stores in the spring and keep until the grass runs out is interesting. Would you be thinking say buying 18-24 months bullock and then sending them straight to slaughter after grass?

Yes. If you buy fancy cattle or even the Hereford Angus sorts mentioned here you will lose the day you purchase. Plain big cattle from diary bred can leave a far better margin than any of the aforementioned. I am not saying Jeresy or screws either just good 'honest' cattle.

I think a poster previously mentioned him buy fancy cattle and storing them in a slatted shed to finish was a disaster and he is right!

Water John

kk.man wrote: »

Yes. If you buy fancy cattle or even the Hereford Angus sorts mentioned here you will lose the day you purchase. Plain big cattle from diary bred can leave a far better margin than any of the aforementioned. I am not saying Jeresy or screws either just good 'honest' cattle.

I think a poster previously mentioned him buy fancy cattle and storing them in a slatted shed to finish was a disaster and he is right!

Neighbour to me has indeed made his living buying Br Friesian store bullocks.

Who2

With 15 acres and with a simple dry bedded shed I’d be looking at going into five or six pedigrees. It will keep your interest peaked , they will suit a dry shed system and can prove fairly lucrative if you have the right breeding. I’ve seen a good few setups like this when out looking at bulls. If you’ve the right attitude towards it you should have no bother.

Fendtro11

k mac wrote: »

Just think the heifers are easier finished. And reason i suggest Hereford or Angus is they are cheaper buying. Yes the meal costs, I think if you have west of Ireland ground like I have and can't finish off grass it takes too much meal feeding...then there's the price in the factory

Ah yeah ok, thanks. Your right enough north west I am!

Fendtro11

AckwelFoley wrote: »

Would you not look at perhaps pedigree. A few pedigree cows and sell their offspring at say 12 or 18 months.

You don't have enough land to keep 25 cattle to fatten and frankly its not easy to make money if you don't have the numbers.

Hi, thanks for the reply. Well the only thing is I've not a tap experience with calving or working with pedigree animals. I understand though what your saying numbers wise!

k mac

Would you consider sheep. Fencing would be a cost..but so is putting up sheds.

Bass Reeves

Winter finishing on any scale is a dead loss. Feeding ration except for last 6-8 weeks on grass is making even then it is only fed to get fat cover.on cattle. Ultimately a lot come down to if you will have access to more land down the line. However 15 acres will hardly justify a shed. To turn a profit on Sumner grazing you need to be excellent at buying cattle in the spring and in timing your purchases.

The earlier you can buy cattle the more weight you can put on them. However you have to allow for QA payments which means that any cattle that will grade especially AA or HE have to be slaughtered sub 30 months as 30c/kg is impossible to make up in weight gain.

Summer grazing is a high capital game. On 15 acres you could carry anything from 12-20cattle on that amount of land summer grazing. Taking out bales or excess grass would be break even at best. At higher stocking rates poor grass growth could break you. Even buying 12friesian bullocks will cost 10-12k maybe more depend on weight and quality. 20 fr cattle will cost 18-20k.

If you intended to build a shed, a two bay shed would carry 20-25 stores over a winter on 14' slats. But you will need silage. If are overwintering 10 cattle you will need about 40-50 bales or about 5 acres of silage. Straw bedded sheds are not an option for over wintering cattle any longer unless maybe you are from a tillage area, even then 15-20 bales will be minimum required to overwinter 10 cattle.

TBH 15 acres is not viable for any drystock system

Fendtro11

Ford4life wrote: »

25 store bullocks would want 2.5 ft of headfeed space each roughly if you would be feeding ration/meal on top of the silage, bullocks would produce roughly 35 gallons of **** per week, depending on what zone you are in you might need a lot more storage, we'll say 16 weeks anyway so 35x25x16=14000 gallons of storage required but you may want to allow for 5 months depending on your land if its wet or not and what zone you are in, then allow for 2 feet of water
60ft long shed would allow space for 24 bullocks to feed at the same time so that wouldnt be too bad, the tank would extend out 5 feet either end of the shed then to allow for 2 agitation points
70ft long, 10ft wide, 8ft deep would give you 33,600 gallons of storage which is more than enough, store bullocks sh*t would be very thick so would want nearly 3ft water but would make do with 2ft with a good agitator inside the tank. Wouldnt be very costly for a shed like this with a tams grant
Be no need for cubicles/lie back area for store cattle.
Could have them housed full time on silage and cut all the ground for silage possibly, some fellas make a grass finishing system work and you could try it if ya wanted
Another option would be a roofed shed and keep them on milled peat, great stuff for bedding, will last them ages and keep them very clean
Lowest cost solution would be an outdoor area bedded with woodchip and a feed barrier but i dont know how well that would work for finishing cattle tbh
Hope this helps

Ford4life good on ya that's very helpful! See when say you'd want 3ft of water in the tank do you mean from natural sources,drains etc.?
Would be very interesting to work out the idea of housing them and keeping ground for silage instead to see how that fits so cheers for that idea!
Thanks very much

Fendtro11

kk.man wrote: »

Yes. If you buy fancy cattle or even the Hereford Angus sorts mentioned here you will lose the day you purchase. Plain big cattle from diary bred can leave a far better margin than any of the aforementioned. I am not saying Jeresy or screws either just good 'honest' cattle.

I think a poster previously mentioned him buy fancy cattle and storing them in a slatted shed to finish was a disaster and he is right!

Ok yes that makes sense. Thanks very much.

Fendtro11

Who2 wrote: »

With 15 acres and with a simple dry bedded shed I’d be looking at going into five or six pedigrees. It will keep your interest peaked , they will suit a dry shed system and can prove fairly lucrative if you have the right breeding. I’ve seen a good few setups like this when out looking at bulls. If you’ve the right attitude towards it you should have no bother.

Who2 thanks appreciate that. Honestly not an avenue I though about but might be worth a bit of looking into.

Donald Trump

Would there be any opportunities for B&B for cattle in your area?

I don't know whether there is any money in it though ....... you'd think that people wouldn't do it if there wasn't ....... but this is the farming forum

Then you can build your shed and get some use out of it and have an idea in advance how much you will have coming in (assuming you get paid!)

Fendtro11

k mac wrote: »

Would you consider sheep. Fencing would be a cost..but so is putting up sheds.

Your not the first person who has said that too me and my experience with sheep has always been bad! I couldn't see myself holding the interest for too long in them now

Donald Trump

Be aware also that you won't get many points on your grant application in the scoring section that counts your acres

I think that there are a good few points straight off though for young farmers.

K.G.

Bottom line the most margin beef cattle are making is 100 euro per 12 calender months.if you want to make more you must buy cheap and sell dear in the mart but that takes alot of time.with your average slatted house costing around 20 to 25 k after grant it dosent take you long to figure out it dosent add up.the story with beef finishing is a numbers game.you have to have the numbers so you can buy straights in bulk at discount prices,big finishers would be buying feed almost 100 euro a ton cheaper than your average bag of ration and also they will get better prices at certain times due to being able to send a couple of doubles when the dactory needs them to keep base prices the same.
As regards the cows sucking.the scene is ideal have an arragement with a larger neighbouring dairy farmer that would have large number of hd/aa calves available.keep an eye out on dd for high cell count cows usally come on stream march/april/may and when you buy one ring the dairy guy.to line up the calves.you will gave a bit of work of a couple of days to get calves and cows used to each other but a crush designed for it works well.in my case the bay of the crush after the gate swings out of the way and makes it easy enough.after a week you let them off and thats it bar dehorning maybe

MIKEKC

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Water John, thanks for the reply. The only thing that would make a slatted unit justifiable is the potential for a grant, machinery wise I wouldn't be investing much in that. I fortunately have an uncle with machinery that could tie me over so it would be a very small tractor or quad set up anyway.

In terms of other farming I'm really not sure as is this is the only area which I am interested in and could make it work around another job!

If the grant is the only thing that would justify a slatted unit I would be very cautious. People place too much emphasis on grants. If a building costs say e100,000 with no grant you can claim full costs against tax. If it costs e60,000 after grant you can only claim the e60,000.

Fendtro11

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Winter finishing on any scale is a dead loss. Feeding ration except for last 6-8 weeks on grass is making even then it is only fed to get fat cover.on cattle. Ultimately a lot come down to if you will have access to more land down the line. However 15 acres will hardly justify a shed. To turn a profit on Sumner grazing you need to be excellent at buying cattle in the spring and in timing your purchases.

The earlier you can buy cattle the more weight you can put on them. However you have to allow for QA payments which means that any cattle that will grade especially AA or HE have to be slaughtered sub 30 months as 30c/kg is impossible to make up in weight gain.

Summer grazing is a high capital game. On 15 acres you could carry anything from 12-20cattle on that amount of land summer grazing. Taking out bales or excess grass would be break even at best. At higher stocking rates poor grass growth could break you. Even buying 12friesian bullocks will cost 10-12k maybe more depend on weight and quality. 20 fr cattle will cost 18-20k.

If you intended to build a shed, a two bay shed would carry 20-25 stores over a winter on 14' slats. But you will need silage. If are overwintering 10 cattle you will need about 40-50 bales or about 5 acres of silage. Straw bedded sheds are not an option for over wintering cattle any longer unless maybe you are from a tillage area, even then 15-20 bales will be minimum required to overwinter 10 cattle.

TBH 15 acres is not viable for any drystock system

Bass Reeves thanks for the detailed response particularly on QA point. At the minute I've a block of that land but I'm exploring other options as well to make the thing work. Would you any thoughts on a potential system that could be worked on that ground, forgetting about housing for now?

Fendtro11

Donald Trump wrote: »

Be aware also that you won't get many points on your grant application in the scoring section that counts your acres

I think that there are a good few points straight off though for young farmers.

That's a good point and something I must look into, thanks

Donald Trump

Fendtro11 wrote: »

That's a good point and something I must look into, thanks

Marking sheet is here for current TAMS for LESS scheme. You would be under a different scheme. Marks might be different for a different scheme



https://assets.gov.ie/68669/fa7bd041c94f4346b8914d459895c943.doc

Edit. Here is the one for Young Farmers Capital investment scheme
https://assets.gov.ie/68676/16b406b8dcf84541af1b259bb879497a.doc

Fendtro11

MIKEKC wrote: »

If the grant is the only thing that would justify a slatted unit I would be very cautious. People place too much emphasis on grants. If a building costs say e100,000 with no grant you can claim full costs against tax. If it costs e60,000 after grant you can only claim the e60,000.

MIKEKC thanks, the only thing is that I would be eligible for the young farmer grant of 60% which is the only way it could work for me!

Donald Trump

MIKEKC wrote: »

If the grant is the only thing that would justify a slatted unit I would be very cautious. People place too much emphasis on grants. If a building costs say e100,000 with no grant you can claim full costs against tax. If it costs e60,000 after grant you can only claim the e60,000.

If you really want to claim the full 100k, you can take that 40k and spend it on something else!



(Technically the 40k is treated and taxed as income and you write off the 100k over ~7 years. But the point still stands - you can still spend it if you want to on something else!)

You can make the point that you can save not having to go to grant spec. There is a lot to be said though for not always doing it the "cheapest" way too!

Fendtro11

Donald Trump wrote: »

Marking sheet is here for current TAMS for LESS scheme. You would be under a different scheme. Marks might be different for a different scheme



https://assets.gov.ie/68669/fa7bd041c94f4346b8914d459895c943.doc

Edit. Here is the one for Young Farmers Capital investment scheme
https://assets.gov.ie/68676/16b406b8dcf84541af1b259bb879497a.doc

Thanks a million for that

Donald Trump

Fendtro11 wrote: »

Thanks a million for that

Don't just go on what you get on here though. Use it as a pointer in the right direction.

MIKEKC

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you really want to claim the full 100k, you can take that 40k and spend it on something else!



(Technically the 40k is treated and taxed as income and you write off the 100k over ~7 years. But the point still stands - you can still spend it if you want to on something else!)

You can make the point that you can save not having to go to grant spec. There is a lot to be said though for not always doing it the "cheapest" way too!

completely agree as regards doing things cheaply. I am a great believer in doing things once and doing them right. Most people doing a job like a shed would be borrowing the money and using the tax relief each year to make the repayments.

Donald Trump

MIKEKC wrote: »

completely agree as regards doing things cheaply. I am a great believer in doing things once and doing them right. Most people doing a job like a shed would be borrowing the money and using the tax relief each year to make the repayments.

But you do get the same tax relief when you get a grant. If you spend 100k on a shed and receive a grant of 40k back on that money, you have to pay income tax on the 40k income when you receive it. You still write the 100k off over the 7 years. So you could get stung on the income tax up front if you aren't careful.

It's not the case that you instead just write the "net" 60k off over 6 years.

(That's my understanding and am open to correction)

trg

Donald Trump wrote: »

But you do get the same tax relief when you get a grant. If you spend 100k on a shed and receive a grant of 40k back on that money, you have to pay income tax on the 40k income when you receive it. You still write the 100k off over the 7 years. So you could get stung on the income tax up front if you aren't careful.

It's not the case that you instead just write the "net" 60k off over 6 years.

(That's my understanding and am open to correction)

Your understanding is wrong. Mike is right

Bass Reeves

trg wrote: »

Your understanding is wrong. Mike is right

It can be done either way whichever suits recipients. As a Young trained farmer op may be entitled to 60% TAM's I think. Limit is 70k. 70k should cover a 4bay slatted unit with run back and internal penning and crush area. That would give an overall spend of about 80k Inc vat.

If the shed costs 70k+vat you. Reclaim the vat of 10k, leaving 70k in allowances. AFAIK you can spread depreciation over longer than eight years if you wish accountant will confirm this but assuming you are deprecating at higher tax costs are as follows

80k , reclaim vat of 10 k approx. Claim grant if op qualified for 60% grant he get 42k leaving 28k in allowances. He reclaims these over 8 years leaving a net 16.8k for shed. If he was only entitled to the 40% grant the shed would cost 25.2 net after tax.

He hardly be building that size shed unless he was renting land but at the higher grant and if I had the allowances and could rent land I be tempted

trg

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It can be done either way whichever suits recipients. As a Young trained farmer op may be entitled to 60% TAM's I think. Limit is 70k. 70k should cover a 4bay slatted unit with run back and internal penning and crush area. That would give an overall spend of about 80k Inc vat.

If the shed costs 70k+vat you. Reclaim the vat of 10k, leaving 70k in allowances. AFAIK you can spread depreciation over longer than eight years if you wish accountant will confirm this but assuming you are deprecating at higher tax costs are as follows

80k , reclaim vat of 10 k approx. Claim grant if op qualified for 60% grant he get 42k leaving 28k in allowances. He reclaims these over 8 years leaving a net 16.8k for shed. If he was only entitled to the 40% grant the shed would cost 25.2 net after tax.

He hardly be building that size shed unless he was renting land but at the higher grant and if I had the allowances and could rent land I be tempted

Donald said you have to pay income tax on the grant the year you get it. That is wrong because you don't have to.

Maybe you can opt to do just that but I've never seen or heard of it.

The limit is 80k of qualifying expenditure. So 60% of 80k is max grant.

Vat is refundable and is deducted from gross cost when calculating depreciation.

Depreciation on farm buildings is over 7 years - 6 x 15% and 1 x 10%