Evicting guest/caretaker

Dinging

My Mum who recently passed away had allowed a friend to live in her apartment while in hospital. She wanted someone to stay there for security reasons and this friend had recently come back from abroad was looking for a place on a short-term basis so we as a family thought this was a good idea. Now 2 years later we need to sell the apartment. The executor of the will has contacted the guest (we are not referring to as tenant as there is no rent being paid, no rental agreement in place) and it looks like they are refusing to leave although they had received notice to leave 6 weeks ago. What are our rights as property owners, can we physically remove this person, can we change the locks when this person is out of the apartment.

None of the utilities are in the guest's name so one approach was to have gas, electricity cut off. Can we do this?

whippet

Thread very carefully.... regardless of a formal agreement this is the person’s home.

Doing anything of the things you have just mentioned could potentially land you in big trouble with a hefty bill for compensation.

Speak to a solicitor and get professional advice

Mrs OBumble

Have they refused to leave at all, or just during the level 5 covid lockdown + 10 days?

runawaybishop

Did they have full and exclusive use of the apartment? Who owns the apartment now?

Need more details but assuming they didn't have full use or any actual caretaker agreement they are a guest and the current owner can move them out fairly swiftly.

Davauer

you can contact the Citizens Information Phone Service on 0761 07 4000 (Monday to Friday, 9am to 8pm).

endacl

Call Threshold, as if you were the guest, and explain the situation as they might.

Listen carefully to the advice you receive.

Do the opposite.

Dinging

whippet wrote: »

Thread very carefully.... regardless of a formal agreement this is the person’s home.

Doing anything of the things you have just mentioned could potentially land you in big trouble with a hefty bill for compensation.

Speak to a solicitor and get professional advice

Yes, we understand the need to be very careful here as there are certain rights this person may have even though no rent is being paid, no tenancy agreement is in place and no contribution is being made toward the utilities. No rash decisions will be made just wanted to check if there was an easier way out of this. We may be surprised and they may vacate of their own accord which would be great.

Dinging

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Have they refused to leave at all, or just during the level 5 covid lockdown + 10 days?

Yes, they got 6 weeks notice but have asked for another week. My Mum passed in September so they were aware that if and when that happened the apartment was to be sold. She had been in a nursing home for the previous 18 months. We have given 6 weeks' written notice to quit. They are looking for more time but we think this is just a stalling tactic.

Dinging

runawaybishop wrote: »

Did they have full and exclusive use of the apartment? Who owns the apartment now?

Need more details but assuming they didn't have full use or any actual caretaker agreement they are a guest and the current owner can move them out fairly swiftly.

They live there, have full and exclusive use of the apartment. My Mum who died in September had vacated the apartment 2 years ago so they have been living there since.

accensi0n

Not legal advice, but it would seem fair to give them a few weeks after restrictions have eased.
So March 26th for example?

Edit:
The above is specifically taking the covid situation into account.
I also think this person has taken the absolute piss.

runawaybishop

Dinging wrote: »

They live there, have full and exclusive use of the apartment. My Mum who died in September had vacated the apartment 2 years ago so they have been living there since.

That complicates it. Legal advice is even more important here tbh. Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

Did you speak to them before sending the letter or was the letter sent as a result of their non engagement? Sounds like you have a handle on who they are but just checking. If they’ve been promising to leave for some time and then nothing, you’re obviously doing the right thing considering legal options- but if this letter came out of the blue, then it’s obviously been a shock to them and yes, 6 weeks wouldn’t necessarily be enough time.

COVID. Restrictions may prevent you getting them out but then again COVID restrictions may prevent them finding another suitable place- if this is ongoing then obviously follow your solicitors advice but if this letter was just landed on them without notice consider looking at things from their perspective- although I agree, they’ve had an easy ride of it to date and should out of respect to your mother, be sorting their own accommodation out sooner than this

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

COVID. Restrictions may prevent you getting them out but then again COVID restrictions may prevent them finding another suitable place .....

If we're talking about Dublin, there are lots of one-bed apartments available. A load of employees of multinationals have vacated one-bed apartments and gone back to their native countries to work from home.

I'm sure there are lots of landlords prepared to mask up and meet prospective tenants. So Covid is no excuse for that lady, she just doesn't want to pay rent. The longer she's squatting in the OP's apartment and not paying rent, the less inclined she will be to move back into the real world. Because after two years living rent-free, she probably knows that she is going to experience a severe financial shock when she has to move and start paying rent.

Claw Hammer

She has no rights, is not covered by the RTB. You can put her out straight away. She is abusing you and her previous friendship with your mother. I would be buying new locks.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

She has no rights, is not covered by the RTB. You can put her out straight away. She is abusing you and her previous friendship with your mother. I would be buying new locks.

Don't listen to this advice, you'll probably end up on the hook for an unauthorised / unlawful eviction. This is a strange case and you need to speak to a lawyer.

Claw Hammer

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't listen to this advice, you'll probably end up on the hook for an unauthorised / unlawful eviction. This is a strange case and you need to speak to a lawyer.

The Residential Tenancies Act does not extend to situations where no rent is paid.
This person went in as a guest, was never a tenant nor owner. They have the same rights as a guest in a B & B. Once told to go, they become a trespasser and can be dealt with as such.

runawaybishop

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The Residential Tenancies Act does not extend to situations where no rent is paid.
This person went in as a guest, was never a tenant nor owner. They have the same rights as a guest in a B & B. Once told to go, they become a trespasser and can be dealt with as such.

I agree the tenancies act probably doesn't apply, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't be careful. We have no idea what offer was made to the occupier.

Claw Hammer

runawaybishop wrote: »

I agree the tenancies act probably doesn't apply, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't be careful. We have no idea what offer was made to the occupier.

I never said the tenancies act probably doesn't apply.

runawaybishop

Ok, calm down. It looked like you said it didn't apply to this situation - maybe you can clarify. That doesn't mean you can chuck the occupant out with zero consequences.

JoChervil

Knowing rent prices it is somehow hard to believe that it was for free.

You need to investigate the whole situation. Because maybe it was a money exchange under the table, not to be taken by the nursing home (or HSE, if it was a fair deal undertaken).

Anyway such situation creates tax obligation. It was not an obligation for your mother as long as she lived there, but after moving to the nursing home, she was no longer a LL living with a logger. Of course if money was paid.

If money was not paid, so the guest should pay a tax from a gift of this free rent.

If she has no proof that she had paid anything to your mum, like for example regular monthly withdrawals, so the threat about informing revenue about unpaid taxes could do the trick.

But it can be a double-edge sword...

Claw Hammer

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ok, calm down. It looked like you said it didn't apply to this situation - maybe you can clarify. That doesn't mean you can chuck the occupant out with zero consequences.

I said it doesn't apply, no probably about it. Tell me what consequences you think there would be?

Claw Hammer

JoChervil wrote: »

Knowing rent prices it is somehow hard to believe that it was for free.

You need to investigate the whole situation. Because maybe it was a money exchange under the table, not to be taken by the nursing home (or HSE, if it was a fair deal undertaken).

Anyway such situation creates tax obligation. It was not an obligation for your mother as long as she lived there, but after moving to the nursing home, she was no longer a LL living with a logger. Of course if money was paid.

If money was not paid, so the guest should pay a tax from a gift of this free rent.

If she has no proof that she had paid anything to your mum, like for example regular monthly withdrawals, so the threat about informing revenue about unpaid taxes could do the trick.

But it can be a double-edge sword...

Caretaking might involve a benefit in kind, which is the height of it.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Caretaking might involve a benefit in kind, which is the height of it.

You know nothing of the ins and outs of the arrangement made with the occupant of the house. There could be all sorts of agreements between them and the deceased, both written and unwritten, in lieu of paying a monthly fee for rent. A skilled lawyer will be in a far better position to determine the facts than a bunch of randomers on Boards, me included.

If you're right, then OP has nothing to worry about bar the cost of the solicitor. If you turn out to be wrong, they're personally on the hook for twenty grand.

I know exactly which course of action I'd take.

runawaybishop

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I said it doesn't apply, no probably about it. Tell me what consequences you think there would be?

Given we don't know what arrangement was made we cannot know if it applies or not for sure. Outside of any caretaker agreement there may have been other offers or considerations given anyway.

The consequences could easily be the occupant engages their own solicitor and ties this up for ages based on something that was promised that the op is unaware of. Hence the recommendation to seek proper legal advice. This is hardly controversial.

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

You know nothing of the ins and outs of the arrangement made with the occupant of the house.

We do, there is no arrangement. At least nothing on paper. It was a casual agreement with nothing in writing. OP said so in his/her first post.

She has never paid rent and she is not delivering any kind of service in lieu of rent so she has no legal protection. Having refused or failed to vacate when given reasonable notice, she is now a squatter.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

We do, there is no arrangement. At least nothing on paper. It was a casual agreement with nothing in writing. OP said so in his/her first post.

She has never paid rent and she is not delivering any kind of service in lieu of rent so she has no legal protection. Having refused or failed to vacate when given reasonable notice, she is now a squatter.

You don't know that, so please stop saying that you do. The OP said there's no rental agreement. That should be read as "there's no rental agreement that I know of". You also have no idea about what is or is not being delivered in lieu of rent. There's no mention in the OP, again, but what happens if you rock up, change the locks and they produce something in dear old granny's handwriting saying they can water the plants or look after the utility bills instead of paying rent?

I'll tell you what, if you agree to pay any damages awarded against the OP for wrongful eviction, I'll concede that you're correct. If you won't, then they need to see a solicitor.

Best of luck, OP, it's a tough one.

Garibaldi?

This person could claim that he/she had an agreement of some sort with the owner. They could say anything they wished and the family could not prove it to be untrue. Your best bet is to avoid antagonizing this individual, to keep relations very friendly but through a solicitor. They will have to leave eventually but what you need is the most peaceable and least expensive resolution.

Dinging

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you speak to them before sending the letter or was the letter sent as a result of their non engagement? Sounds like you have a handle on who they are but just checking. If they’ve been promising to leave for some time and then nothing, you’re obviously doing the right thing considering legal options- but if this letter came out of the blue, then it’s obviously been a shock to them and yes, 6 weeks wouldn’t necessarily be enough time.

COVID. Restrictions may prevent you getting them out but then again COVID restrictions may prevent them finding another suitable place- if this is ongoing then obviously follow your solicitors advice but if this letter was just landed on them without notice consider looking at things from their perspective- although I agree, they’ve had an easy ride of it to date and should out of respect to your mother, be sorting their own accommodation out sooner than this

Yes, we had an unwritten agreement that when my mother passed away that we would eventually be as part of winding up her estate sell the apartment. The guest was aware exactly when Mum passed and there was a number of discussions since her death that the apartment was to be sold. As part of the disposal of assets, the executor issued a notice to leave giving the guest 6 weeks to leave the property. This was due to happen yesterday however the guest has asked for an additional week. We have agreed but it looks like legal avenue is the only option now

BattleCorp

Dinging wrote: »

Yes, we had an unwritten agreement that when my mother passed away that we would eventually be as part of winding up her estate sell the apartment. The guest was aware exactly when Mum passed and there was a number of discussions since her death that the apartment was to be sold. As part of the disposal of assets, the executor issued a notice to leave giving the guest 6 weeks to leave the property. This was due to happen yesterday however the guest has asked for an additional week. We have agreed but it looks like legal avenue is the only option now

I'm not saying you are wrong but you might, just might, be jumping the gun.

They were only supposed to move out yesterday and have asked for another week. That's hardly the end of the world. Let things settle until next week and go back and see what arrangements she has made to move out.

If she hasn't plans to move out made by then, then you might need to explore your legal options.

trigger26

Maybe ask does she need a reference- it would remind her that you can help if she's looking to rent in a competitive market or not if she keeps taking advantage of the situation

TheBoyConor

Regardless of the absence of any written agreement, it is likely that they will by now have acquired Part IV tenancy rights by default after being there this long.

Whether a tenancy needed to be in place in the first place to make a Part IV possible, i don't know off the top of my head. But the "guest" could always claim that your mother let the house to him rent free. Since there is no written history of the situation, and the law is heavily biased in favour of the tenant, the RTB will more than likely side with the guest on this and find that he does have Part IV.

Therefore your options are limited.
You can only force him to move out if you need the house for your own occupation or for an immediate family member. You can claim this is the case, but you have to follow through and actually go and make it your main home or get one of your children or sibling to live out of there so make that avenue legal and legitimate. You might have to have you or them living there for a good 6 months anyway.

Stihl waters

So she has asked for an additional week, is there any reason you can't put it off a week, you seem to be jumping the gun if this is only happening now, I know they had 6 weeks to move out but maybe something happened to put them back a week

beertons

Who is paying for the electricity and heating?

K.Flyer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Regardless of the absence of any written agreement, it is likely that they will by now have acquired Part IV tenancy rights by default after being there this long.

Whether a tenancy needed to be in place in the first place to make a Part IV possible, i don't know off the top of my head. But the "guest" could always claim that your mother let the house to him rent free. Since there is no written history of the situation, and the law is heavily biased in favour of the tenant, the RTB will more than likely side with the guest on this and find that he does have Part IV.

Therefore your options are limited.
You can only force him to move out if you need the house for your own occupation or for an immediate family member. You can claim this is the case, but you have to follow through and actually go and make it your main home or get one of your children or sibling to live out of there so make that avenue legal and legitimate. You might have to have you or them living there for a good 6 months anyway.

You can also give notice to vacate on the basis that the property is to be sold as per will of deceased and the notice is given and signed by the executors of the deceased's estate.
So, if the executors are selling the property all they need to do is give the required notice to vacate and that's it.

JoChervil

Stihl waters wrote: »

So she has asked for an additional week, is there any reason you can't put it off a week, you seem to be jumping the gun if this is only happening now, I know they had 6 weeks to move out but maybe something happened to put them back a week

I agree. It might resolve itself peacefully in a week or so.

3 years ago I was given 5 months notice and couldn't find anything. And my landlord agreed twice to shift a deadline. I moved out two weeks after my initial notice expired. And I had 5 months for it!

Mrs OBumble

coylemj wrote: »

If we're talking about Dublin, there are lots of one-bed apartments available. A load of employees of multinationals have vacated one-bed apartments and gone back to their native countries to work from home.

I'm sure there are lots of landlords prepared to mask up and meet prospective tenants. So Covid is no excuse for that lady, she just doesn't want to pay rent.

If the person was wealthy or even middle income, then it's unlikely that they would have been available to act as a caretaker in the first place - they would have already had their own place to live in.

It's quite possible that they are looking for a place which will accept HAP, and those are still pretty scarce.

The OP should definitely seek legal advice (not just interweb randoms) before deciding how to proceed.

But in resolving this, I would try to do it without involving lawyers if at all possible: they will simply rack up bills and antagonise things. And all this talk of tax and gifts etc is just silly: the person has been providing live-in caretaking, in a situation where the house would otherwise have been empty and deteriorating.

Expecting someone to move out during Level 5 lockdown is simply not reasonable. It's illegal for tenants, and would not reflect well on the property owner in any non-tenancy situation.

Dinging

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't know that, so please stop saying that you do. The OP said there's no rental agreement. That should be read as "there's no rental agreement that I know of". You also have no idea about what is or is not being delivered in lieu of rent. There's no mention in the OP, again, but what happens if you rock up, change the locks and they produce something in dear old granny's handwriting saying they can water the plants or look after the utility bills instead of paying rent?

I'll tell you what, if you agree to pay any damages awarded against the OP for wrongful eviction, I'll concede that you're correct. If you won't, then they need to see a solicitor.

Best of luck, OP, it's a tough one.

Yes, it's a tough one. We do as a family have a lot of compassion for this person's situation and considering that we are in lockdown makes things very difficult for everyone involved. We have and will continue to be very fair but the time has come for everyone to move on. There was initially some money being paid towards the utility bills but this stopped after 10 months. No one chased this as Covid had hit so we felt it would be unfair and we have let any contribution slide ever since.

Claw Hammer

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Regardless of the absence of any written agreement, it is likely that they will by now have acquired Part IV tenancy rights by default after being there this long.

Whether a tenancy needed to be in place in the first place to make a Part IV possible,

You have got to be joking.
RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy.

The dwelling in question is not subject to a tenancy.

Garibaldi?

The point is that the person is in possession of that property and had some sort of arrangement with the owner. If things become unpleasant that person could become very creative about what that arrangement was. The best advice is to tread very carefully.

Claw Hammer

Garibaldi? wrote: »

The point is that the person is in possession of that property and had some sort of arrangement with the owner. If things become unpleasant that person could become very creative about what that arrangement was. The best advice is to tread very carefully.

The person is not in possession. they are in occupation. If they intended to raise the issue of some arrangement with the owner they would have done so before now. The o/p says nothing about any arrangement and the occupier asked for extra time. It is simply not credible that details of an arrangement would now emerge, particularly when there is no independent corroboration.

Peintre Celebre

What a country. Someone like this should be thrown out on their arse.

BattleCorp

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

What a country. Someone like this should be thrown out on their arse.

To be fair, the person hasn't yet overstayed their welcome. They asked for a week's extension and it has been granted.

Dinging

beertons wrote: »

Who is paying for the electricity and heating?

My late mother's estate is. She is paying for electricity, heating, Sky tv, apartment management fees including insurance and bins. We have had no contribution for almost a year now towards any utilities or bills.

PadraigBr

Need to be very careful to take any step, as you pointed out above things might not be good for you and it could be bad for you as regards to compensation. Definitely, it’s good to consult with a solicitor to get the required steps to be taken based on professional advice. Also, did you ask if they wouldn’t leave during the covid lockdown time or they are refusing to leave at all and will remain there? Yes, it's good to discuss and take advice from Citizens Information service and take further steps accordingly. Also good to wait for a few weeks as till March and then take the next steps no doubt the person is taking it leniently this is not right. In the end, legal advice is very important if needed to take the process further smoothly and in your favour.

Dinging

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You have got to be joking.
RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
Subject to subsection (2), this Act applies to every dwelling, the subject of a tenancy.

The dwelling in question is not subject to a tenancy.

I suppose this is the key question, is it a tenancy or could it be argued as a tenancy if it came to it hence the post to the legal forum. Looks like we may have to go legal if by the end of this week the guest has not left the property.

Garibaldi?

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The person is not in possession. they are in occupation. If they intended to raise the issue of some arrangement with the owner they would have done so before now. The o/p says nothing about any arrangement and the occupier asked for extra time. It is simply not credible that details of an arrangement would now emerge, particularly when there is no independent corroboration.

Based on other cases that have been frequently in the news we are all aware that matters such as this can become very complicated and are not always resolved fairly. The best approach is to keep your powder dry unless you are sure that the person intends to be challenging.

Claw Hammer

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Based on other cases that have been frequently in the news we are all aware that matters such as this can become very complicated and are not always resolved fairly. The best approach is to keep your powder dry unless you are sure that the person intends to be challenging.

What you learn from the news is never the full story. It is rarely news if a trespasser is locked out, goes to the guards and is told it is civil, goes to the RTB and is told that it is nothing to do with the RTB. What gets into the news are dramatic incidents. Security companies have gone into properties all around Dublin and locked people out. The guards stood watching. None of the security companies or the companies who commissioned them faced and penalty.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What you learn from the news is never the full story. It is rarely news if a trespasser is locked out, goes to the guards and is told it is civil, goes to the RTB and is told that it is nothing to do with the RTB. What gets into the news are dramatic incidents. Security companies have gone into properties all around Dublin and locked people out. The guards stood watching. None of the security companies or the companies who commissioned them faced and penalty.

You don't have all the info to be able to tell the OP that, without a doubt, they are 100% in the right to follow your course of action. You simply aren't aware of all of the moving pieces. I'd be surprised if even the OP is. There are a myriad of mitigating factors, and falling foul of the laws and regulations is a costly business. You can take my word on that, without going into specifics, as I've personal experience.

It has already been pointed out to you that there are pros and cons of doing it your way versus doing it the 'proper' way, for want of a better term. If you engage a solicitor, worst case scenario means you're out of pocket for a couple of hundred quid for them to do their due diligence. If you don't, and you're in the wrong, then worst case scenario means you've to fork over €20,000.

If it comes down to taking the word of a stranger on the internet versus paying a few bob to somebody qualified in the matter who you could chase after if the advice given is wrong, then there's only one winner. And that's all that matters, really.

Dinging

Dinging wrote: »

Yes, we had an unwritten agreement that when my mother passed away that we would eventually be as part of winding up her estate sell the apartment. The guest was aware exactly when Mum passed and there was a number of discussions since her death that the apartment was to be sold. As part of the disposal of assets, the executor issued a notice to leave giving the guest 6 weeks to leave the property. This was due to happen yesterday however the guest has asked for an additional week. We have agreed but it looks like legal avenue is the only option now

You might find this will work out OK- best thing is keep objective and ask her questions like:

What is the additional week for?
Have you found alternative accommodation?
What is the agreed date you’re moving/getting the keys?
Can you stay with friends or family as you’re waiting for new accommodation as we need to plough ahead?

If it’s a clear reason why she needs 1 more week then probably fair enough- if she’s not forthcoming on genuine reason why she wants it then likely this may be a longer drawn out affair- try and keep positive for time being but document everything in case things go array

Also advise her that you’ll be clearing out the apartment of your mothers contents - give her a date for this and arrive on this day and start your clear out. If shes just burrying her head in the sand this may wake her up that things are real- in fairness it was probably advisable to start this proces earlier to show her this is happening - if you get the “you’ve no right to do that” response then you know this won’t be going away any time soon

NB not legal advice only a suggestion

skooterblue2

Dinging wrote: »

My late mother's estate is. She is paying for electricity, heating, Sky tv, apartment management fees including insurance and bins. We have had no contribution for almost a year now towards any utilities or bills.

This is a good thing! that means she is squatting if she has no legal paperwork like a lease or agreement.