Evicting guest/caretaker

Dinging

My Mum who recently passed away had allowed a friend to live in her apartment while in hospital. She wanted someone to stay there for security reasons and this friend had recently come back from abroad was looking for a place on a short-term basis so we as a family thought this was a good idea. Now 2 years later we need to sell the apartment. The executor of the will has contacted the guest (we are not referring to as tenant as there is no rent being paid, no rental agreement in place) and it looks like they are refusing to leave although they had received notice to leave 6 weeks ago. What are our rights as property owners, can we physically remove this person, can we change the locks when this person is out of the apartment.

None of the utilities are in the guest's name so one approach was to have gas, electricity cut off. Can we do this?

whippet

Thread very carefully.... regardless of a formal agreement this is the person’s home.

Doing anything of the things you have just mentioned could potentially land you in big trouble with a hefty bill for compensation.

Speak to a solicitor and get professional advice

Mrs OBumble

Have they refused to leave at all, or just during the level 5 covid lockdown + 10 days?

runawaybishop

Did they have full and exclusive use of the apartment? Who owns the apartment now?

Need more details but assuming they didn't have full use or any actual caretaker agreement they are a guest and the current owner can move them out fairly swiftly.

Davauer

you can contact the Citizens Information Phone Service on 0761 07 4000 (Monday to Friday, 9am to 8pm).

endacl

Call Threshold, as if you were the guest, and explain the situation as they might.

Listen carefully to the advice you receive.

Do the opposite.

Dinging

whippet wrote: »

Thread very carefully.... regardless of a formal agreement this is the person’s home.

Doing anything of the things you have just mentioned could potentially land you in big trouble with a hefty bill for compensation.

Speak to a solicitor and get professional advice

Yes, we understand the need to be very careful here as there are certain rights this person may have even though no rent is being paid, no tenancy agreement is in place and no contribution is being made toward the utilities. No rash decisions will be made just wanted to check if there was an easier way out of this. We may be surprised and they may vacate of their own accord which would be great.

Dinging

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Have they refused to leave at all, or just during the level 5 covid lockdown + 10 days?

Yes, they got 6 weeks notice but have asked for another week. My Mum passed in September so they were aware that if and when that happened the apartment was to be sold. She had been in a nursing home for the previous 18 months. We have given 6 weeks' written notice to quit. They are looking for more time but we think this is just a stalling tactic.

Dinging

runawaybishop wrote: »

Did they have full and exclusive use of the apartment? Who owns the apartment now?

Need more details but assuming they didn't have full use or any actual caretaker agreement they are a guest and the current owner can move them out fairly swiftly.

They live there, have full and exclusive use of the apartment. My Mum who died in September had vacated the apartment 2 years ago so they have been living there since.

accensi0n

Not legal advice, but it would seem fair to give them a few weeks after restrictions have eased.
So March 26th for example?

Edit:
The above is specifically taking the covid situation into account.
I also think this person has taken the absolute piss.

runawaybishop

Dinging wrote: »

They live there, have full and exclusive use of the apartment. My Mum who died in September had vacated the apartment 2 years ago so they have been living there since.

That complicates it. Legal advice is even more important here tbh. Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

Did you speak to them before sending the letter or was the letter sent as a result of their non engagement? Sounds like you have a handle on who they are but just checking. If they’ve been promising to leave for some time and then nothing, you’re obviously doing the right thing considering legal options- but if this letter came out of the blue, then it’s obviously been a shock to them and yes, 6 weeks wouldn’t necessarily be enough time.

COVID. Restrictions may prevent you getting them out but then again COVID restrictions may prevent them finding another suitable place- if this is ongoing then obviously follow your solicitors advice but if this letter was just landed on them without notice consider looking at things from their perspective- although I agree, they’ve had an easy ride of it to date and should out of respect to your mother, be sorting their own accommodation out sooner than this

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

COVID. Restrictions may prevent you getting them out but then again COVID restrictions may prevent them finding another suitable place .....

If we're talking about Dublin, there are lots of one-bed apartments available. A load of employees of multinationals have vacated one-bed apartments and gone back to their native countries to work from home.

I'm sure there are lots of landlords prepared to mask up and meet prospective tenants. So Covid is no excuse for that lady, she just doesn't want to pay rent. The longer she's squatting in the OP's apartment and not paying rent, the less inclined she will be to move back into the real world. Because after two years living rent-free, she probably knows that she is going to experience a severe financial shock when she has to move and start paying rent.

Claw Hammer

She has no rights, is not covered by the RTB. You can put her out straight away. She is abusing you and her previous friendship with your mother. I would be buying new locks.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

She has no rights, is not covered by the RTB. You can put her out straight away. She is abusing you and her previous friendship with your mother. I would be buying new locks.

Don't listen to this advice, you'll probably end up on the hook for an unauthorised / unlawful eviction. This is a strange case and you need to speak to a lawyer.

Claw Hammer

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't listen to this advice, you'll probably end up on the hook for an unauthorised / unlawful eviction. This is a strange case and you need to speak to a lawyer.

The Residential Tenancies Act does not extend to situations where no rent is paid.
This person went in as a guest, was never a tenant nor owner. They have the same rights as a guest in a B & B. Once told to go, they become a trespasser and can be dealt with as such.

runawaybishop

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The Residential Tenancies Act does not extend to situations where no rent is paid.
This person went in as a guest, was never a tenant nor owner. They have the same rights as a guest in a B & B. Once told to go, they become a trespasser and can be dealt with as such.

I agree the tenancies act probably doesn't apply, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't be careful. We have no idea what offer was made to the occupier.

Claw Hammer

runawaybishop wrote: »

I agree the tenancies act probably doesn't apply, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't be careful. We have no idea what offer was made to the occupier.

I never said the tenancies act probably doesn't apply.

runawaybishop

Ok, calm down. It looked like you said it didn't apply to this situation - maybe you can clarify. That doesn't mean you can chuck the occupant out with zero consequences.

JoChervil

Knowing rent prices it is somehow hard to believe that it was for free.

You need to investigate the whole situation. Because maybe it was a money exchange under the table, not to be taken by the nursing home (or HSE, if it was a fair deal undertaken).

Anyway such situation creates tax obligation. It was not an obligation for your mother as long as she lived there, but after moving to the nursing home, she was no longer a LL living with a logger. Of course if money was paid.

If money was not paid, so the guest should pay a tax from a gift of this free rent.

If she has no proof that she had paid anything to your mum, like for example regular monthly withdrawals, so the threat about informing revenue about unpaid taxes could do the trick.

But it can be a double-edge sword...

Claw Hammer

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ok, calm down. It looked like you said it didn't apply to this situation - maybe you can clarify. That doesn't mean you can chuck the occupant out with zero consequences.

I said it doesn't apply, no probably about it. Tell me what consequences you think there would be?

Claw Hammer

JoChervil wrote: »

Knowing rent prices it is somehow hard to believe that it was for free.

You need to investigate the whole situation. Because maybe it was a money exchange under the table, not to be taken by the nursing home (or HSE, if it was a fair deal undertaken).

Anyway such situation creates tax obligation. It was not an obligation for your mother as long as she lived there, but after moving to the nursing home, she was no longer a LL living with a logger. Of course if money was paid.

If money was not paid, so the guest should pay a tax from a gift of this free rent.

If she has no proof that she had paid anything to your mum, like for example regular monthly withdrawals, so the threat about informing revenue about unpaid taxes could do the trick.

But it can be a double-edge sword...

Caretaking might involve a benefit in kind, which is the height of it.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Caretaking might involve a benefit in kind, which is the height of it.

You know nothing of the ins and outs of the arrangement made with the occupant of the house. There could be all sorts of agreements between them and the deceased, both written and unwritten, in lieu of paying a monthly fee for rent. A skilled lawyer will be in a far better position to determine the facts than a bunch of randomers on Boards, me included.

If you're right, then OP has nothing to worry about bar the cost of the solicitor. If you turn out to be wrong, they're personally on the hook for twenty grand.

I know exactly which course of action I'd take.

runawaybishop

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I said it doesn't apply, no probably about it. Tell me what consequences you think there would be?

Given we don't know what arrangement was made we cannot know if it applies or not for sure. Outside of any caretaker agreement there may have been other offers or considerations given anyway.

The consequences could easily be the occupant engages their own solicitor and ties this up for ages based on something that was promised that the op is unaware of. Hence the recommendation to seek proper legal advice. This is hardly controversial.

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

You know nothing of the ins and outs of the arrangement made with the occupant of the house.

We do, there is no arrangement. At least nothing on paper. It was a casual agreement with nothing in writing. OP said so in his/her first post.

She has never paid rent and she is not delivering any kind of service in lieu of rent so she has no legal protection. Having refused or failed to vacate when given reasonable notice, she is now a squatter.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

We do, there is no arrangement. At least nothing on paper. It was a casual agreement with nothing in writing. OP said so in his/her first post.

She has never paid rent and she is not delivering any kind of service in lieu of rent so she has no legal protection. Having refused or failed to vacate when given reasonable notice, she is now a squatter.

You don't know that, so please stop saying that you do. The OP said there's no rental agreement. That should be read as "there's no rental agreement that I know of". You also have no idea about what is or is not being delivered in lieu of rent. There's no mention in the OP, again, but what happens if you rock up, change the locks and they produce something in dear old granny's handwriting saying they can water the plants or look after the utility bills instead of paying rent?

I'll tell you what, if you agree to pay any damages awarded against the OP for wrongful eviction, I'll concede that you're correct. If you won't, then they need to see a solicitor.

Best of luck, OP, it's a tough one.

Garibaldi?

This person could claim that he/she had an agreement of some sort with the owner. They could say anything they wished and the family could not prove it to be untrue. Your best bet is to avoid antagonizing this individual, to keep relations very friendly but through a solicitor. They will have to leave eventually but what you need is the most peaceable and least expensive resolution.

Dinging

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you speak to them before sending the letter or was the letter sent as a result of their non engagement? Sounds like you have a handle on who they are but just checking. If they’ve been promising to leave for some time and then nothing, you’re obviously doing the right thing considering legal options- but if this letter came out of the blue, then it’s obviously been a shock to them and yes, 6 weeks wouldn’t necessarily be enough time.

COVID. Restrictions may prevent you getting them out but then again COVID restrictions may prevent them finding another suitable place- if this is ongoing then obviously follow your solicitors advice but if this letter was just landed on them without notice consider looking at things from their perspective- although I agree, they’ve had an easy ride of it to date and should out of respect to your mother, be sorting their own accommodation out sooner than this

Yes, we had an unwritten agreement that when my mother passed away that we would eventually be as part of winding up her estate sell the apartment. The guest was aware exactly when Mum passed and there was a number of discussions since her death that the apartment was to be sold. As part of the disposal of assets, the executor issued a notice to leave giving the guest 6 weeks to leave the property. This was due to happen yesterday however the guest has asked for an additional week. We have agreed but it looks like legal avenue is the only option now

BattleCorp

Dinging wrote: »

Yes, we had an unwritten agreement that when my mother passed away that we would eventually be as part of winding up her estate sell the apartment. The guest was aware exactly when Mum passed and there was a number of discussions since her death that the apartment was to be sold. As part of the disposal of assets, the executor issued a notice to leave giving the guest 6 weeks to leave the property. This was due to happen yesterday however the guest has asked for an additional week. We have agreed but it looks like legal avenue is the only option now

I'm not saying you are wrong but you might, just might, be jumping the gun.

They were only supposed to move out yesterday and have asked for another week. That's hardly the end of the world. Let things settle until next week and go back and see what arrangements she has made to move out.

If she hasn't plans to move out made by then, then you might need to explore your legal options.

trigger26

Maybe ask does she need a reference- it would remind her that you can help if she's looking to rent in a competitive market or not if she keeps taking advantage of the situation

TheBoyConor

Regardless of the absence of any written agreement, it is likely that they will by now have acquired Part IV tenancy rights by default after being there this long.

Whether a tenancy needed to be in place in the first place to make a Part IV possible, i don't know off the top of my head. But the "guest" could always claim that your mother let the house to him rent free. Since there is no written history of the situation, and the law is heavily biased in favour of the tenant, the RTB will more than likely side with the guest on this and find that he does have Part IV.

Therefore your options are limited.
You can only force him to move out if you need the house for your own occupation or for an immediate family member. You can claim this is the case, but you have to follow through and actually go and make it your main home or get one of your children or sibling to live out of there so make that avenue legal and legitimate. You might have to have you or them living there for a good 6 months anyway.