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‘Working people” and “ordinary working people “ what are the rest

  • 31-01-2021 12:06pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭


    Politicians keep using the above terms, can someone explain what they mean. How about retired people, housewives, performers, poets etc. Are they not supposed to represent everyone or are they trying to engraciate themselves to a certain group.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,543 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Yes, ordinary working people is a huge voting demographic and politicians want to represent themselves and their parties as having that demographic at the forefront of their minds and policies.

    No real mystery to it.

    The same happens for pensioners, "the arts" and everybody else in some way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Ordinary working people = taxpayers.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    How about retired people, housewives, performers, poets etc.

    So how many poets do you know? More or less than the number of PAYE workers?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭Cerveza


    The lads on the lifetime of rock and roll.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    Yes but are the wealthy or self employed who also pay tax included as ordinary working people, I am trying to find out who is in and who is out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    Ordinary working people = anyone who has a job they can be fired from
    Working people = politicians, public servants, teachers, recipients of payments from NGO's etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    Thanks, that’s very helpful, ordinary working people can be fired and working people Like public servants have a job for life and pension.


  • Registered Users Posts: 940 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    For the parties of the left there is a class element to it. When SF says "ordinary working people" they mean taxi drivers, porters, nurses, retail workers etc....ie non-professional working classes. Because that's' where they're trying to get new votes from. They're certainly not referring to the doctors, lawyers and other professionals or those working in the multinational sector.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    Thanks, I like to think we all are working and that we need all people to make an economy no matter what type of worker you are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    ‘Ordinary working people’ is used because ‘working class’ no longer means working and often represents those on lifelong welfare, ‘ordinary working people’ I always took to mean the working class who actually work.


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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    VANG1 wrote: »
    Yes but are the wealthy or self employed who also pay tax included as ordinary working people, I am trying to find out who is in and who is out.

    I think you are asking us to help you out with rudimentary comprehension here. No, the wealthy are not ordinary working people because being wealthy is not ordinary by definition.


  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    ‘Ordinary working people’ is used because ‘working class’ no longer means working and often represents those on lifelong welfare, ‘ordinary working people’ I always took to mean the working class who actually work.

    That term working class has been abused alright, but even Karl Marx wouldn't have seen the perennial unemployed as working class.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    That term working class has been abused alright, but even Karl Marx wouldn't have seen the perennial unemployed as working class.

    Very true , but he’s not exactly a reasonable voice in this discussion. The lexicon had to evolve because of those to the left of the aisle have often hidden the undesirable elements behind those who are doing low paid jobs and frame every cut to welfare or increase in policing as an attack on those workers rather than admit it only hurts a demographic that most actual working class people also have a distaste for


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    So if you start with nothing, start a business , work really hard and make a few quid, you are not ordinary anymore. So money is the definition of who you are. This is why I struggle. How would you describe McGregor?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    VANG1 wrote: »
    So if you start with nothing, start a business , work really hard and make a few quid, you are not ordinary anymore. So money is the definition of who you are. This is why I struggle. How would you describe McGregor?

    up until your worth about 10 million quid you're a success and fair play to you, after that you're all sorts of derogatory names that people can revile over their pint down the pub. Name any Irish person worth more than 10 mil who the country don't have a distaste for.

    Its not that money is who you are, its just a concerted effort by some political parties and journalists to bind together low income workers and perpetual welfare claimants , and other journalists and politicians trying to change the vocabulary to (in my view correctly) separate those two demographics as not to be seen to be treating workers unfairly while implementing policies the welfare classes don't like.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭VANG1


    I agree, but without wealth creation there is no money in taxes to fund the running of the country. We should encourage and celebrate entrepreneurs as they pay the bills for the country, instead of driving them out of the country as tax exiles. I think the only very rich guy who pays Irish tax is Michael O’Leary. All the others seem to be offshore for tax but able to own houses here. We are giving/selling citizenship to anyone with a few quid. We should keep are individuals with money. It seems we let foreign companies and individuals pay almost no tax. To me it is not joined up thinking. We need to grow our economy. A bigger cake means more tax for housing and health. Never hear this being discussed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,335 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    up until your worth about 10 million quid you're a success and fair play to you, after that you're all sorts of derogatory names that people can revile over their pint down the pub. Name any Irish person worth more than 10 mil who the country don't have a distaste for.

    Its not that money is who you are, its just a concerted effort by some political parties and journalists to bind together low income workers and perpetual welfare claimants , and other journalists and politicians trying to change the vocabulary to (in my view correctly) separate those two demographics as not to be seen to be treating workers unfairly while implementing policies the welfare classes don't like.

    What would he be doing if he wasn't in the MMA? Either on the rock and roll or in a state hotel


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    What would he be doing if he wasn't in the MMA? Either on the rock and roll or in a state hotel

    I dont disagree, but thats as far as I'm going in to a discussion about that lad, have very little to say that belongs in this thread.


  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    VANG1 wrote: »
    I agree, but without wealth creation there is no money in taxes to fund the running of the country. We should encourage and celebrate entrepreneurs as they pay the bills for the country, instead of driving them out of the country as tax exiles. I think the only very rich guy who pays Irish tax is Michael O’Leary. All the others seem to be offshore for tax but able to own houses here. We are giving/selling citizenship to anyone with a few quid. We should keep are individuals with money. It seems we let foreign companies and individuals pay almost no tax. To me it is not joined up thinking. We need to grow our economy. A bigger cake means more tax for housing and health. Never hear this being discussed.

    Hang on how are they paying the bills for the country by not paying taxes and not living here? Most good paying Irish jobs are driven by external capital anyway. And lots of Irish entrepreneurship is rent seeking.

    However you wanted to know what the term "ordinary Irish worker means" and clearly it doesn't mean the rich. How could it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Hang on how are they paying the bills for the country by not paying taxes and not living here? Most good paying Irish jobs are driven by external capital anyway. And lots of Irish entrepreneurship is rent seeking.

    However you wanted to know what the term "ordinary Irish worker means" and clearly it doesn't mean the rich. How could it.

    Id be interested to hear more.


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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Id be interested to hear more.

    Well here is a good article on the subject. You probably won't disagree with all of it.

    http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/why-the-young-are-priced-out-of-the-irish-economy/


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Well here is a good article on the subject. You probably won't disagree with all of it.

    http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/why-the-young-are-priced-out-of-the-irish-economy/

    Id actually agree with a lot of that. If you throw in our insanely bloated NGO sector , Ireland is awash with these effective semi states contributing almost nothing bar creating artificial employment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Ireland is second only to Norway on a United Nations annual ranking of 189 countries measured according to average longevity, education, and income.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-ranked-second-in-the-world-for-quality-of-life-beating-sweden-germany-and-uk-1.4440009


  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    Id actually agree with a lot of that. If you throw in our insanely bloated NGO sector , Ireland is awash with these effective semi states contributing almost nothing bar creating artificial employment.

    There was a UN meeting 2019 to discuss racism, and one of the African UN delegates expressed surprise at the number of Irish NGO's present, asking the Irish delegation if everyone in Ireland worked in an NGO!


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    RandRuns wrote: »
    There was a UN meeting 2019 to discuss racism, and one of the African UN delegates expressed surprise at the number of Irish NGO's present, asking the Irish delegation if everyone in Ireland worked in an NGO!

    Haha, that isnt even shocking, just funny. If you take mental health, suicide, diversity, racism, housing and homelessness there are over 100 NGO’s in those sectors. Its insane what we let people away with in this country. “Pay your ceo 160k, do a few interviews, hold a fun run, rinse repeat”


  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭RandRuns


    Haha, that isnt even shocking, just funny. If you take mental health, suicide, diversity, racism, housing and homelessness there are over 100 NGO’s in those sectors. Its insane what we let people away with in this country. “Pay your ceo 160k, do a few interviews, hold a fun run, rinse repeat”

    There's 1 "charity" for every 480 people in Ireland, nearly 11,000 in all.
    More than a quarter of them submit abridged accounts.

    The "human rights" industry in Ireland is a huge grey economy all of it's own - with dozens of highly paid "CEO's" of similar organisations, all claiming to do nearly identical work. It is in these organisations interest to promote the idea that Ireland is some kind of human rights hell, in order to keep the money flowing.

    Human Rights fundraising is the 21st century equivalent of the Catholic church's indulgence sales of the middle ages - allowing those who can afford to, to get a leg up on assuaging guilt over the less well-off. And just like the church's efforts all those years ago, the sellers of a pristine conscience are laughing all the way to the bank.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice




  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    RandRuns wrote: »
    There's 1 "charity" for every 480 people in Ireland, nearly 11,000 in all.
    More than a quarter of them submit abridged accounts.

    The "human rights" industry in Ireland is a huge grey economy all of it's own - with dozens of highly paid "CEO's" of similar organisations, all claiming to do nearly identical work. It is in these organisations interest to promote the idea that Ireland is some kind of human rights hell, in order to keep the money flowing.

    Human Rights fundraising is the 21st century equivalent of the Catholic church's indulgence sales of the middle ages - allowing those who can afford to, to get a leg up on assuaging guilt over the less well-off. And just like the church's efforts all those years ago, the sellers of a pristine conscience are laughing all the way to the bank.

    I always find amnesty as the most laughable one, in the building they own there are something like 10-12 registered NGO's with similar missions, each one of them the board is the same revolving group of about 8-12 people and constantly in publications they release statements like 'x NGO thinks this is shocking, just look at this report we found from Y NGO' , they use themselves as their own validators/fact checkers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭eastie17


    My assessment on the likes of SF and PBP is that when they say "working class" they mean people who are not working and are almost permanently supported by the state.
    People like me who have been fortunate enough to be always in gainful employment in the private sector are their target for taking more taxes to "pay" those "working class" people more state funding. Might be simplistic but that's my summary of it and what I hear when they are talking about this.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    VANG1 wrote: »
    Thanks, I like to think we all are working and that we need all people to make an economy no matter what type of worker you are.
    Even people that don't work, or even don't pay tax, is part of the Irish economy.
    They may not contribute as much as we do, for a number of reasons, but they represent a factor we have to deal with.

    I get the feeling when politicians say "ordinary working people" they mean everyone in society that are affected by the decisions. Regular Joe Soaps.


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