Can the appointment of someone to a teaching/SNA position be legally challenged?

ShadysBack

So last year my wife applied for an SNA job in our local primary school but wasn't called for an interview - which is fair enough given that these jobs don't come up too often in our locality, and when they do, there are usually 100's of applications.

Yesterday, I found out who the person was that got the job. I know this person and their family quite well and I have to say I'm stunned that they were even called for an interview. My wife is qualified to degree level (early years education) and has lots of relevant experience working in the education sector - including previous experience of working as an SNA in a Maternity Cover position. The person who got the job went straight into working in the retail sector after completing their Leaving Certificate and didn't complete any additional qualifications after this.

I'm not diminishing the person's ability to do the job, but I cannot comprehend how someone can be called for an interview and given a job with zero qualifications and zero relevant experience - while my wife, who is qualified and experienced wasn't even interviewed.

I know that the parents of the person who got the job is very close to the school principal so I can't help but think there is nepotism at play with this appointment. It's a year down the line now and I don't plan to make an issue about it now but I'm wondering is there anything that can be done in a situation like this from a legal standpoint?

I suppose what I'm asking is could someone potentially object to someone being appointed to a publically adverstised position like this? In my own sector, I have heard of legal cases being taken when someone hasn't been called for interview for promotions or where someone was promoted with less experiences and qualifications than other candidates - but these were all for internally advertised posts. Obviosuly in the case of SNA posts (and teaching posts in general), these are publically advertised, government jobs.

benji79

Not really I’d stay.
Once they held interviews, marked each candidate, etc. The principal and Board of Management would have made sure it’s all in order. There are a certain number of marks per section under headings like experience, suitability, etc
It would be easy to manipulate the marks to make sure who they wanted had the most marks of the candidates interviewed on the day. As far as I’m aware unsuccessful candidates are allowed request their own scoring sheet from interview

Obviously I don’t know situation but you said individual had no qualifications. Are you sure?
I’m thinking they must have an SNA course done

Big Bag of Chips

I don't think you'd have grounds for objecting to someone else being appointed, but your wife would probably be entitled to contact the board to question why she wasn't shortlisted. Was there something on her CV etc.

As far as I know the position of SNA doesn't actually have a requirement for a specific qualification. Of course you would think it would be beneficial to have one, but it isn't a requirement. I have seen SNA jobs advertised where it says a qualification is not necessary.

Best your wife can do is ask about the shortlist criteria.

killbillvol2

How do you know that the person who got the job didn't complete any additional qualifications? There are dozens of options for completing Fetac Level 5 and 6 qualifications in that area that can be done part time, at night or online.

GalwayGrrrrrl

Could it be that the interview board thought your wife would be aiming to be a teacher rather than an sna? My mother is a teacher who had an SNA working with her who was always trying to teach the class. It is better to have an assistant with no interest in teaching as the SNA is there to support the needs of the child, not get involved in any teaching. Also just from reading your wife’s qualifications I’m wondering why she isn’t completing her studies to be a teacher (and would therefore leave the sna job once she’s qualified).

beggars_bush

If the other person previously worked as an sna and was on the panel she was entitled to be called for interview

The Wordress

Ugh, the school I teach in is riddled with politics and nepotism, particularly with SNA appointments. There must have been one principal years ago who appointed all her buddies and neighbours. Now, we are left with a lot of underqualified and unprofessional staff who have very little interest in their job. It is extremely upsetting to work with at times.

Take it as a lucky escape and find a school who appreciates your talents, qualifications, skills and personality.

In the long run, you will be much better off in a progressive school.

AndrewJRenko

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I don't think you'd have grounds for objecting to someone else being appointed, but your wife would probably be entitled to contact the board to question why she wasn't shortlisted. Was there something on her CV etc.

As far as I know the position of SNA doesn't actually have a requirement for a specific qualification. Of course you would think it would be beneficial to have one, but it isn't a requirement. I have seen SNA jobs advertised where it says a qualification is not necessary.

Best your wife can do is ask about the shortlist criteria.

This ^^^

Also, the best qualifications does not necessarily make the best candidate. Qualifications are a yes/no qualifier. Either the candidate has them or doesn't. Being overqualified in itself does not make for a better candidate. It depends on the performance at interview.

In addition to the above, if you are absolutely convinced that something dodgy happened, you could consider making a formal complaint to the Chairperson of the Board of Management. It probably won't change anything about this appointment, but it just might make people think twice about making a dodgy appointment next time.

heldel00

A lot of it can come down to work experience with SNA positions.
We would have a lot of locals who have completed the SNA course and some would be in the lucky position of being able to do unpaid work experience in our school. It wouldn't matter a damn how many letters you have after your name, if you made a good impression and a position came up it would leave the candidate in a very good position.
It's a brilliant job and i can honestly say that i would give up my teaching job in the morning if i thought i could secure a permanent SNA position (this is to do with demands in the classroom and the fact i havr a young family)

Kathnora

While I don't think a string of qualifications necessarily means you're the right person for the job, I do think that the minimum requirement of 3 D's in the Junior Cert is way too low. The role of the SNA is an onerous one. It demands initiative, people skills, discretion and good numeracy and literacy skills for helping children with their work. Some past pupils of my school have had ambitions to become an SNA. They meet the minimum requirements and become very upset when they find it difficult to get work experience and employment. But the reality is that many of these candidates just don't have the necessary skills and there are some who are just about able to mind themselves but not a child. The minimum standard should be raised to Leaving Cert level at least and dare I say not the Applied Leaving Cert either.
My comments are tough and some may judge them as cruel but the truth is that applicants for the role of SNA holding the bare minimum requirements don't get considered for the jobs yet they can undertake the training courses. It gives them false hope and that to me is cruel.

AndrewJRenko

Kathnora wrote: »

While I don't think a string of qualifications necessarily means you're the right person for the job, I do think that the minimum requirement of 3 D's in the Junior Cert is way too low. The role of the SNA is an onerous one. It demands initiative, people skills, discretion and good numeracy and literacy skills for helping children with their work. Some past pupils of my school have had ambitions to become an SNA. They meet the minimum requirements and become very upset when they find it difficult to get work experience and employment. But the reality is that many of these candidates just don't have the necessary skills and there are some who are just about able to mind themselves but not a child. The minimum standard should be raised to Leaving Cert level at least and dare I say not the Applied Leaving Cert either.
My comments are tough and some may judge them as cruel but the truth is that applicants for the role of SNA holding the bare minimum requirements don't get considered for the jobs yet they can undertake the training courses. It gives them false hope and that to me is cruel.

I'm not sure if you really understand the role of an SNA. They are not teachers. They are there to provide personal care.

Students with disabilities deserve qualified teachers.

killbillvol2

Kathnora wrote: »

While I don't think a string of qualifications necessarily means you're the right person for the job, I do think that the minimum requirement of 3 D's in the Junior Cert is way too low. The role of the SNA is an onerous one. It demands initiative, people skills, discretion and good numeracy and literacy skills for helping children with their work. Some past pupils of my school have had ambitions to become an SNA. They meet the minimum requirements and become very upset when they find it difficult to get work experience and employment. But the reality is that many of these candidates just don't have the necessary skills and there are some who are just about able to mind themselves but not a child. The minimum standard should be raised to Leaving Cert level at least and dare I say not the Applied Leaving Cert either.
My comments are tough and some may judge them as cruel but the truth is that applicants for the role of SNA holding the bare minimum requirements don't get considered for the jobs yet they can undertake the training courses. It gives them false hope and that to me is cruel.

Those would be the training courses leading to further qualifications? Your post is nonsense.

Kathnora

I'm not sure if you really understand the role of an SNA. They are not teachers. They are there to provide personal care.

Students with disabilities deserve qualified teachers. (AndrewJRenko)

I have 30+ years experience as a primary teacher and therefore feel qualified to talk about the role of an SNA as I have worked with them. On "paper" an SNA is appointed to a school to attend to the care needs of a student which can range from personal care to keeping a child on task with their school work. The SNA is not a classroom assistant like they have in the UK. However, in reality many SNA's unofficially become classroom assistants for the students in their care. They do need to keep the child on task particularly if the child has behavioral or attention issues and assist with reading, written work, Maths etc. Now the Dept of Education will say that that is not their role but my colleagues and I just couldn't function in a class of 30 children if we didn't have the invaluable help of the SNA who in many cases helps the child to access the curriculum at their level. We all need Classroom Assistants but then that would cost more than an SNA so the Dept are quite happy to let the SNA undertake that role ...on the quiet! The SNA should be a carer but us teachers need more than that for some special needs children in mainstream schools and we don't have it. Thanks to the generosity of most SNA's and their good qualifications we can include special needs children in our large classes.

Kathnora

Those would be the training courses leading to further qualifications? Your post is nonsense. (quote killbillvol2)

The training courses are Fetac Level 5 and Level 6. Yes those courses train a person for the role of SNA. But what I am saying is that I think a person needs much higher qualifications than 3 D's in a Junior Cert to undertake the role effectively. See post 13 above where I have elaborated on the role.

Big Bag of Chips

applicants for the role of SNA holding the bare minimum requirements don't get considered for the jobs yet they can undertake the training courses.

But...

Surely if they undertake the training courses, then they no longer have the bare minimum requirements (3 Ds in junior cert) . They actually have the SNA course that they have used their Junior Cert results to undertake?

Unless I misunderstand and you are claiming that people with 3D's in Junior cert are somehow complaining that they are not given SNA roles ahead of people who have undertaken the SNA courses).

I don't think I have ever seen any job advertised anywhere where the minimum requirements were listed as 3D's in Junior Cert.

I don't think "D" is even a grade in Junior Cert anymore!

Kathnora

You are right Big Bag of Chips .... the D in Junior Cert is gone ... old habits here!

It's true to say of course that if you successfully undertake the training courses you no longer have the minimum qualifications. But, my point is that to undertake the role of SNA in an effective manner a person needs to have reached a higher level of basic second level education than 3 passes in the Junior Cert. If a principal sees that on a CV there is very little hope of a candidate getting an interview no matter how many training courses have been undertaken. Perhaps if a candidate presents good references from a previous job as an SNA they may be considered for interview. The role is demanding as I have explained in my earlier posts. There are retail stores nowadays who won't employ people without a Leaving Cert so why should such a low level of education be acceptable for the important role of an SNA? The job should deserves a higher status than a basic Junior Cert. I'd also like to add that Fetac Level 5 or 6 won't fill the educational gaps of a candidate with a basic Junior Cert.

AndrewJRenko

Kathnora wrote: »

I'm not sure if you really understand the role of an SNA. They are not teachers. They are there to provide personal care.

Students with disabilities deserve qualified teachers. (AndrewJRenko)

I have 30+ years experience as a primary teacher and therefore feel qualified to talk about the role of an SNA as I have worked with them. On "paper" an SNA is appointed to a school to attend to the care needs of a student which can range from personal care to keeping a child on task with their school work. The SNA is not a classroom assistant like they have in the UK. However, in reality many SNA's unofficially become classroom assistants for the students in their care. They do need to keep the child on task particularly if the child has behavioral or attention issues and assist with reading, written work, Maths etc. Now the Dept of Education will say that that is not their role but my colleagues and I just couldn't function in a class of 30 children if we didn't have the invaluable help of the SNA who in many cases helps the child to access the curriculum at their level. We all need Classroom Assistants but then that would cost more than an SNA so the Dept are quite happy to let the SNA undertake that role ...on the quiet! The SNA should be a carer but us teachers need more than that for some special needs children in mainstream schools and we don't have it. Thanks to the generosity of most SNA's and their good qualifications we can include special needs children in our large classes.

The problem with this approach is that the children with disabilities, often the children with greatest need, are being taught by unqualified teachers, the SNAs. Children with disabilities are entitled to have qualified teachers, just like everyone else. The other approach deepens the inequalities that these children experience.

Kathnora wrote: »

The job should deserves a higher status than a basic Junior Cert.

As far as I know, the principal can set out whatever requirements they choose for the role.

Kathnora

AndrewjRenko ..... I'd just like to clarify that SNAs are never expected to teach special needs children and I would strongly condemn any teacher who hands this role over to the SNA. In my posts above I used the word "assist" the teacher. The class teacher along with the school's Resource teacher design and deliver the curriculum to suit the child's needs. However in a class of 30 children it is simply not possible to give undivided attention to the special needs children every time they need it and ignore the rest of the class. Of course there is time allocated to the child in question on a one to one basis but we all know it's never enough time. Therefore the class teacher by default depends on the SNA for assistance. It's important to note too that a teacher may have to deal with children who are needy for many reasons and they don't all come to school with an SNA in tow.

Yes, a principal can set out whatever criteria they wish for the role. My message is that the candidates with the minimum requirements ( 3 passes in Junior Cert) have little chance of meeting those criteria.

Big Bag of Chips

Have there been cases where a person with the minimum requirements (3 passes at Junior Cert) have actually applied for SNA roles, without any other qualification?

If 3 passes at Junior Cert is enough to get you on to an SNA course, and then the person completes and passes the SNA course with good grades - then the fact that they left school early shouldn't really be relevant. Anyway that's not the issue with the OP. His issues is that his wife, who he feels is far better qualified for the role was not even interviewed while someone he feels hasn't necessary qualifcations was given the role.

He's issue is almost the opposite of what you're arguing!

Kathnora

Big Bag of Chips .... Having the minimum grades in the Junior Cert and performing well in the training courses don't always go hand in hand. It's not impossible of course, especially if the student has good ability but performed poorly at Junior Cert level through lack of interest for instance. I think some people regard success at a training course as the only benchmark when it comes to being effective as an SNA. Speaking from experience in my own school it's not the only benchmark. The SNA role as I have already outlined is worthy of a higher standard of education and indeed a higher standard is needed for the job.
I have huge sympathy for the OP's wife with her undergraduate degree in her pocket. You could say that she is over qualified and some principals may think that this lady would not achieve job satisfaction in such a role.

killbillvol2

Kathnora wrote: »

Big Bag of Chips .... Having the minimum grades in the Junior Cert and performing well in the training courses don't always go hand in hand. It's not impossible of course, especially if the student has good ability but performed poorly at Junior Cert level through lack of interest for instance. I think some people regard success at a training course as the only benchmark when it comes to being effective as an SNA. Speaking from experience in my own school it's not the only benchmark. The SNA role as I have already outlined is worthy of a higher standard of education and indeed a higher standard is needed for the job.
I have huge sympathy for the OP's wife with her undergraduate degree in her pocket. You could say that she is over qualified and some principals may think that this lady would not achieve job satisfaction in such a role.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to live in your little black and white world.

The best SNA I've worked with (and I've worked with many) left school after her Inter Cert because her parents rather selfishly died and it wasn't possible for her to continue in education. Many years later she completed a course.

Another excellent colleague left school early due to a toxic home environment and, in her mid 20s, returned to education.

I would value the life experience they brought to the job over a couple of honours in the Leaving Cert.

AndrewJRenko

Kathnora wrote: »

AndrewjRenko ..... I'd just like to clarify that SNAs are never expected to teach special needs children and I would strongly condemn any teacher who hands this role over to the SNA. In my posts above I used the word "assist" the teacher. The class teacher along with the school's Resource teacher design and deliver the curriculum to suit the child's needs. However in a class of 30 children it is simply not possible to give undivided attention to the special needs children every time they need it and ignore the rest of the class. Of course there is time allocated to the child in question on a one to one basis but we all know it's never enough time. Therefore the class teacher by default depends on the SNA for assistance. It's important to note too that a teacher may have to deal with children who are needy for many reasons and they don't all come to school with an SNA in tow.

Yes, a principal can set out whatever criteria they wish for the role. My message is that the candidates with the minimum requirements ( 3 passes in Junior Cert) have little chance of meeting those criteria.

Why is it the children with disabilities that lose out on the teacher's time and are left with the unqualified teacher instead?

Corkgirl20

As a deputy principal I’d like to offer my two pence.
In recent years we’ve had two full time SNA posts to fill.
The first one we knew we needed somebody quiet and gentle as they would be the sole SNA of an extremely anxious child who was very sensitive.
For the second one it was a child with behavioural issues who was very loud so we were seeking an SNA who would have experience of working with a student like this.

So I would say the temperament and experience of the SNA to be would also play a role in appointing an SNA.
Both SNA’s were brilliant but in different ways at the end of the day when it is a full time SNA allocated to one student you do need to take a lot into consideration.

If it’s an SNA shared amongst a few students that would be different.

Kathnora

The best SNA I've worked with (and I've worked with many) left school after her Inter Cert because her parents rather selfishly died and it wasn't possible for her to continue in education. Many years later she completed a course.

Another excellent colleague left school early due to a toxic home environment and, in her mid 20s, returned to education.

I would value the life experience they brought to the job over a couple of honours in the Leaving Cert.
killbillvol2 is online now Report Post ( killbillvol2)


In post 21 above I did state that a student can have good ability but perform poorly in The Junior Cert. I just didn't give as many examples as you did in your post. Everyone admires someone who returns to education especially if life has dealt them some hard luck or misfortune. And yes, experience is valued by schools too.
Perhaps I need to be more blunt (without intending to cause offence to anyone) but a candidate whose academic potential is 3 passes in the Junior Cert or equivalent standard is simply not adequate for the demands of the role.

Corkgirl20

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why is it the children with disabilities that lose out on the teacher's time and are left with the unqualified teacher instead?

Totally incorrect, the class teacher , teaches the whole class. The SNA will assist the student(s) with additional needs so that they can be included in the class.

The children with additional needs are receiving the teaching from the class teacher plus extra support from the SNA.

killbillvol2

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why is it the children with disabilities that lose out on the teacher's time and are left with the unqualified teacher instead?

All children lose out on the teacher's time as it is obviously impossible to give your full attention to 30 people simultaneously. Children with special needs get extra help from an SNA to compensate. The other children don't.

I don't understand where you're getting the idea of an unqualified teacher from?

anplaya27

Deaf person here.

In my opinion SNA are not qualified enough. I do recognise that some are great at their job but they need to be more qualified in some cases.

For example, theres SNA who dont even have profficient Irish Sign Language, which is now recognised as a native language of Ireland being placed with Deaf kids. They should at least have a minimum of a level 8 qualification in Irish Sign Language before being placed with a Deaf child. Ridiculous. How are they expected to communicate with them. There should be a role such as a ISL communicative assistant in this instance not a SNA provided.

Also, Deaf people learn through mediated learning, which means they only pick up 60 pc of what a teacher says in English as it's being interpreted into ISL so they lose out anyway. Imagine how much they lose out on by not having a profficient SNA.

byhookorbycrook

Children with additional needs may have the help of the SNA to help them organise their text books , ensure the child understands what they are expected to do and help keep them on task . They aren’t teaching the child , they are supporting them in the task the teacher has taught the class . They aren’t teaching the child.
An SNA cannot even be left to supervise a class . If a teacher is called away urgently , the teacher in the room next door is in charge , even though the SNA is in that room .

AndrewJRenko

Corkgirl20 wrote: »

Totally incorrect, the class teacher , teaches the whole class. The SNA will assist the student(s) with additional needs so that they can be included in the class.

The children with additional needs are receiving the teaching from the class teacher plus extra support from the SNA.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Children with additional needs may have the help of the SNA to help them organise their text books , ensure the child understands what they are expected to do and help keep them on task . They aren’t teaching the child , they are supporting them in the task the teacher has taught the class . They aren’t teaching the child.
An SNA cannot even be left to supervise a class . If a teacher is called away urgently , the teacher in the room next door is in charge , even though the SNA is in that room .

That's pretty much what I've been saying should be happening, but kathnora seems to have a different story.

killbillvol2 wrote: »

All children lose out on the teacher's time as it is obviously impossible to give your full attention to 30 people simultaneously. Children with special needs get extra help from an SNA to compensate. The other children don't.

I don't understand where you're getting the idea of an unqualified teacher from?

I'm getting the idea from kathnora's claims about the education requirements of SNAs, which seem to go way beyond the personal care role.

The Wordress

anplaya27 wrote: »

Deaf person here.

In my opinion SNA are not qualified enough. I do recognise that some are great at their job but they need to be more qualified in some cases.

For example, theres SNA who dont even have profficient Irish Sign Language, which is now recognised as a native language of Ireland being placed with Deaf kids. They should at least have a minimum of a level 8 qualification in Irish Sign Language before being placed with a Deaf child. Ridiculous. How are they expected to communicate with them. There should be a role such as a ISL communicative assistant in this instance not a SNA provided.

Also, Deaf people learn through mediated learning, which means they only pick up 60 pc of what a teacher says in English as it's being interpreted into ISL so they lose out anyway. Imagine how much they lose out on by not having a profficient SNA.

I completely agree with you as regards qualifications and training.

From my experience of working in a special class, I would say that the majority of SNAs I have worked with have had very little training and general understanding of special needs.

In my school, only one SNA ever received training in PECs as an example. No training in TEACCH, AAC devices, Attention Autism etc etc.

For the record, I have some amazing SNAs in my classroom and they adored working with my children but they were very much in the minority.

The sad reality in my school is a lot of the SNAs don't want to do this training or have any interest in progressing their skills and knowledge.

In the last few weeks, I sent an email with some webinar dates for training for an AAC device that one of my pupils has recently received from the HSE. None of my SNAs had any interest in doing this training from the comfort of their home while on full pay.

It really upset me that they didn't want to learn to use a device that is helping a child reach their full potential and be their voice essentially.

What I would like to see is a much tougher system for entry into these SNA courses. Do they need to be interviewed for suitability or meet some kind or criteria first.

At the end of the day, it's in everyone's interest if we have best qualified and most suited person for the job.

Kathnora

AndrewJRenko ..... I have already explained in post 13 why the role of the SNA goes beyond personal care needs as the Dept officially states.

I fully agree with Corkgirl20 and byhookorbycrook above with their explanations of the SNA's role. Corkgirl20 stated that the child receives extra supports from the SNA. That can include assistance with reading, interpreting instructions, a dig out in Maths maybe, organisational skills and so on. byhookorbycrook conveys the same message. My message is no different ...