What does the future hold for Donald Trump? - threadbans in OP

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346126#Comment_121346126

ompulsory voting only works if options include a 'none of the above' box.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346148#Comment_121346148

Also only really works if there's some form of PR in use.

In FPTP , a lot of people have no incentive to vote a lot of the time because their vote is essentially worthless.

With PR you can make sure your vote actually means something.

Penn

Also important that any form of compulsory voting is entirely reliant on making sure there can be no voter suppression, which means ensuring voters have enough time off work to go and vote, there are enough election centers and the voter register does its best to ensure everyone is registered and able to vote with ID.

That will never work in America, because freedom.

robinph

Also, nobody could vote from Glastonbury. You have to vote near your address here or do it by post.

Well not "from" Glastonbury festival itself, but was plenty of opportunities to make a postal vote which is what I registered for as soon as I noticed the dates clashed. Whilst I'd not bothered voting on some occasions before, it was that topic which got me properly motivated to ensure that I did each chance since.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346126#Comment_121346126

I don't care how many countries have compulsory voting. It's still an appalling idea and there are no "pros" in forcing people to vote. It's a terrible principle full stop. Imagine if on the ballot there's a choice between a Hitler and a Mussolini figure and you find yourself fined because you couldn't bring yourself to vote for one or the other?

Casting your vote for a party or a politician should ALWAYS be a choice, and an informed one at that. In fact, there's times when I would prefer if some ignoramuses refrained from giving their X entirely.

In addition, ANYONE who pays taxes in a country has a right to complain about the state of that country if they have something to complain about. Just because they didn't vote for the giant douche or the shit sandwich doesn't mean a thing.

As an aside, people need to be very careful when the conjure up the "Ancient Greeks" in a discussion about voting. Not all Greek city states approved of voting. In fact most of the them didn't. Some of them were oligarchical or outright tyrannies. In Athens there was encouragement to vote and to take part in government. But in reality only a selected few had any real say because there was limited citizenship at play and power remained in the hands of a relatively small group.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346232#Comment_121346232

That's what the poster explicitly said.

It was a disingenuous attempt to pin the blame for Brexit and Trump on people who didn't vote instead of the malevolent idiots who voted for them.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346265#Comment_121346265

Casting your vote for a party or a politician should ALWAYS be a choice, and an informed one at that. In fact, there's times when I would prefer if some ignoramuses refrained from giving their X entirely.

I suppose with 20+ countries using mandatory voting, the question might be to explore what kind of governance that has resulted in. The only one I can think of - and even then I might be mistaken - is Belgium? We can reasonably speculate about the overall flaws of FPTP as a voting method among others, and how that can lead to more minority-led governments; where that has caused rot in various countries' enfranchisement etc. ... but can the same extrapolation be done with Mandatory Voting?

I do think there's a way you can enforce voting while being fair about it, starting with the ability to spoil or have None Of the Above to use your example of a choice between dictators - IIRC that's how "voters" wielded some power in the USSR, by basically spoiling their votes for the sole candidate - but the main problem in all this of course is that America's system isn't remotely fair, as @Penn alluded to. Jim Crow is alive and well, albeit rebadged and more sneaky than before - mandatory voting in Ameirca would be a disaster 'cos they'd make sure it would be. It could work here, cos above all else our voting system is fair and balanced - not so America.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346411#Comment_121346411

In a nation where the political landscape doesn't boil down to tweedle dumb and tweedle dee there would be a broader spectrum to make mandatory voting a less distasteful idea. But even with the options to spoil your vote, there's just no way I could get behind the idea.

The ability to cast a vote is an admirable thing, indeed, and something that is precious in a very real sense. But it should be a choice. Forced voting, to me, is a chip in the Democratic cup. I think something like that weakens a democracy as opposed to strengthening it. And as already said, I think it's sometimes better if uninformed voters stay away from polling booth. It was the uninformed rager that caused the likes of Brexit.

You fine enough people enough times for not voting for something or someone they have no interest in, you're going to get protest votes and look where that's got some countries in the last decade.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345589#Comment_121345589

Yes the court cases against Hitler give pause for thought.

Coincidence or evidence of a common trajectory?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346265#Comment_121346265

Imagine if on the ballot there's a choice between a Hitler and a Mussolini figure and you find yourself fined because you couldn't bring yourself to vote for one or the other?

You can spoil your vote. there is no check that you have completed a valid ballot.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346744#Comment_121346744

Fair enough; I honestly don't know where I land on Obligatory Voting 'cos if it was offered to me it'd entirely come down to the minutiae and mechanisms behind it. Kildare St. simply saying "You have to vote or else" would give me a lot of pause without those escape hatches like a proper "none of the above" or what have you. Or indeed what happened someone if they didn't attend the voting station. Our last general election had ~63% turnout so if Counting had to accommodate 30% more votes, it might also make our PR system even more elongated - but no less fascinating once transfers kicked in. You'd wonder which parties would benefit from mandatory voting...

Being blunt & reading the Wiki entry, Australia and Belgium look the standout countries in terms of economic & political stability or prominence, so not sure you'd glean much useful info about how good or bad the idea is. Some of those countries are in rough shape (hi Argentina, about to vote its own Trump), some are just tax havens - and ahem, North Korea sits in the middle.

Australia's 92% turnout is impressive, and interesting too the "punishment" is a $20-180 fine, so not exactly a draconian response. Obviously there's a good cultural buy-in, and would wonder how many people took the 20 dollar hit that one time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting#Current_and_past_use_by_countries

Overheal

but her emails

https://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-trump-jared-kushner-emails-fraud-trial-donald-trump-1842193

I don't remember this exchange," Ivanka Trump said of the email. "But it is not uncommon that I would ask my husband's perspective on something I was working on."

This was her defense to emails she originally tried to shield under spousal privilege. But after applying a 4 part judicial test to the facts, particularly that they were emailing via a Trump Org email server.

James' office firmly places Ivanka Trump at the centre of that purchase and claims she used inflated asset evaluation to secure a loan.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121345907#Comment_121345907

Reference your reply to my post - I absolutely agree that a Trump mark 2 type government and the danger from his ideas of 'foreign policy' would be disastrous for the world, but I was more looking at it from the internal US point of view.

If Trump does get another - possibly extended - term he will drive the US into the ground. Maybe it will break up into three or four separate countries, who knows, but with a triumvirate of China, Russia and the US fawning after them there could easily be significant change to world order.

I wonder is there any possibility that blue states could refuse to continue to subsidise red states if the GOP did prevail and continued with the Trump rampage?

Itssoeasy

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Seeing as how the Minnesota Supreme Court declined to intervene in the case against trump about him being disqualified from standing. I decided to post the text of the section which is section 3 of the 14th amendment above.

I does say in section 5 of the amendment that congress has the power to enact by laws this amendment but this section as it relates to being disqualified from running for office.

congress is given the power as shown in the bolded part to remove the disability as it says there. It doesn’t say it can apply such a disability.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121347857#Comment_121347857

The constitution applies the disability

Overheal

Even trumps so called professional lawyer: ETTD

https://www.mediaite.com/news/judge-demands-apology-after-trump-lawyer-suggests-prosecutor-should-work-for-vladimir-putin-because-thats-where-he-belongs/

Overheal

Trump's Hialeah Speech in 94 Seconds (as edited by Lincoln Project)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjsLgXUDXSg

😁

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121346825#Comment_121346825

The problem I see is some clown of a candidate comes along who appeals to the kind of people who don't give a **** about politics and those voters, now forced to the polls to avoid a fine, get the candidate elected. I'd rather only see people who put some thought into who they vote for going out to vote..

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349453#Comment_121349453

I'd rather only see people who put some thought into who they vote for going out to vote..

Well, we would all love to see that but even with our non-mandatory system that doesn't happen.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349914#Comment_121349914

Yeah Brexit and Trump both happened off the back of voting as an option; if anything Compulsory Voting might force the otherwise centrist and apathetic to vote rather than stay at home, as they tend to do, letting the emotive wingnuts swing elections.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349381#Comment_121349381

That's an awful lot of bronzer on his face.

Just everything about him is so utterly ridiculous , it's bizarre.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349992#Comment_121349992

I do sometimes wonder, albeit facetiously, how many of the world's problems simply came down to a man or men being unable to age gracefully & act their age.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350010#Comment_121350010

Very fair point , however in Trumps case he stopped "acting his age" at about 15 years old it would seem.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350010#Comment_121350010

Considering that most states were at least somewhat absolutist at one point, I'd say quite a few.

EltonJohn69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349992#Comment_121349992

He does look different. A new brand of fake tan ? Or a new tan applier ? Does he have a person to do that for him ?

everlast75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350838#Comment_121350838

Everything about him is a fraud, including his appearance.

How anyone can take him seriously, never mind believe what he says or admire him as a person, is beyond me.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121350838#Comment_121350838

No idea , but certainly Cassidy Hutchinson (Mark Meadows former aide) talks in her book about how a key reason Trump wouldn't wear a mask during Covid was because it rubbed off his fake tan and the mask got "tide marks" all over it etc.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121349992#Comment_121349992

It’s called Alpha male skin tone.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351040#Comment_121351040

That's disgusting.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121351548#Comment_121351548

Indeed a victory of Vanity over Sanity you could say.