Cleaning charge

CiboC

Tenant moved out of our apartment recently.

While the apartment was left generally clean, they didn't:

Clear out, clean and defrost either the fridge or freezer
Clean the inside of the microwave
Ensure all the kitchen cabinets were empty of food

I told them that I am making a 100 euro deduction from the deposit for a cleaning charge.

I think it reasonable enough particlaurly as I had told them in writing a month ago that I expected to get the apartment back in the condition it was received, and specifically mentioned that if I had to do any significant cleaning there would be a charge - I'm ignoring a few wear and tear items.

They are now objecting that it is too much and offering to come back and do the cleaning - too late, it's already been done and they had their chance to do the cleaning properly already!

Thoughts?

punisher5112

You will need s receipt for that so you would need to use a registered contract cleaning company.

The tenant is fully entitled to their deposit otherwise.

Take photos and a walk through video before it's done.

omegab

If they take you to the PRTB you would have to Invoices for the cleaning from a registered company to justify your position, i.e. you can't pay yourself to do it.

newmember2

€50 charge and do it yourself.

jface187

100 euro a bit much to defrost a fridge and clean a microwave. Don't know you at all but it's coming across more that, you're annoyed at them and doing this to teach them a lesson for not listening to you.
I would just drop it and give them back the 100 euro.

meijin

You'd pay 100 euro to a cleaner for about 6 hours of work. While annoying, surely it didn't take you 6h to clean it yourself?

Rezident

My cleaner does 3 hours for less than €50. How on earth is that a €100 charge?

punisher5112

Rezident wrote: »

My cleaner does 3 hours for less than €50. How on earth is that a €100 charge?

With receipt and tax compliance

dennyk

CiboC wrote: »

I told them that I am making a 100 euro deduction from the deposit for a cleaning charge.

That is fine as long as you have the €100 invoice from the cleaning company you hired to perform the work (and you really should consider using a different company, as yours is ripping you off something fierce...).

You cannot deduct from the deposit for your own time and labour, so if you did the cleaning yourself, you could only deduct for the cost of materials, and I suspect you'll have a very difficult time convincing the RTB that a bin bag for the leftover food and a rag and a bit of cleaner to scrub the microwave cost you €100, so if that's your plan, you're going to lose the case when the tenant brings a complaint.

CiboC

OP here, thanks for the replies everyone.

jface187 wrote: »

Don't know you at all but it's coming across more that, you're annoyed at them

I was pretty annoyed, I had specifically told them 4 weeks prior to their moving out that any excessive cleaning required would be charged, I even mentioned the oven and the fridge. Furthermore I told them on the day they were moving that that had left the fridge and freezer in an unacceptable condition but it was only 3 days later when I told them about a cleaning charge that there was any offer to come and clean properly, by which time I had already arranged to have it done.

Nevertheless, I have decided to reduce the charge to 50 euro.

dennyk wrote: »

You cannot deduct from the deposit for your own time and labour, so if you did the cleaning yourself, you could only deduct for the cost of materials

Please back this up with a reference to relevent legislation or a reference to a RTB case, otherwise it's just a random opinion.

If I had done it myself, why would my time and effort be valued at nothing?

The RTB specifically mention:

- Leaving litter or personal items in the property.
- Leaving the property in an unhygienic or unsafe condition.
- Not returning the property in a clean manner.

As being some of the reasons why part of a deposit may be withheld (https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/deposits)

punisher5112

CiboC wrote: »

OP here, thanks for the replies everyone.



I was pretty annoyed, I had specifically told them 4 weeks prior to their moving out that any excessive cleaning required would be charged, I even mentioned the oven and the fridge. Furthermore I told them on the day they were moving that that had left the fridge and freezer in an unacceptable condition but it was only 3 days later when I told them about a cleaning charge that there was any offer to come and clean properly, by which time I had already arranged to have it done.

Nevertheless, I have decided to reduce the charge to 50 euro.



Please back this up with a reference to relevent legislation or a reference to a RTB case, otherwise it's just a random opinion.

If I had done it myself, why would my time and effort be valued at nothing?

The RTB specifically mention:

- Leaving litter or personal items in the property.
- Leaving the property in an unhygienic or unsafe condition.
- Not returning the property in a clean manner.

As being some of the reasons why part of a deposit may be withheld (https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/deposits)

You must be able to provide a receipt, the whole idea is so there is a paper trail ...

You could say it cost €200 say and it only cost €20 in products and an hour or 2 or a vacuum....
It's to put off LL of ripping tenant's off.

Fol20

CiboC wrote: »

Please back this up with a reference to relevent legislation or a reference to a RTB case, otherwise it's just a random opinion.

If I had done it myself, why would my time and effort be valued at nothing?

The RTB specifically mention:

- Leaving litter or personal items in the property.
- Leaving the property in an unhygienic or unsafe condition.
- Not returning the property in a clean manner.

As being some of the reasons why part of a deposit may be withheld (https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/deposits)

You clearly dont know the rules then based on what you said. Most tenants wont bother raising a dispute for 50e but if someone wanted to do it on principle, they would be entitled to everything back.

Have you ever been involved in RTB disputes. They require evidence to highlight what is the issue and evidence that you spent x amount on repairs,cleaning etc. If you cant provide this which you cant unless you have your own cleaning coming then you are just pulling a random figure and saying i will deduct this amount. Do you not see how this can be abused which is exactly why if you look up deposit disputes you will see several cases where a ll lost because of a lack of documentation.

Similar to what you said, your opinion is random and not fact. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim. I have been involved in disputes so i am fully aware of what i need to do to cover myself. In a similar vain, from a tax POV, your time and effort in managing a property is worth nothing. Its the exact same here. Next time this happens to you, bill someone to clean up the place for you to most importantly protect yourself. Your not spending your money as its coming out of the deposit so make sure to do it by the book. Now days, any time i have to keep money on a deposit, i always email the tenant the receipts just so they know where the money is being deducted from so both sides can be transparent and hopefully avoid any disputes.

Graham

CiboC wrote: »

If I had done it myself, why would my time and effort be valued at nothing?

Welcome to the world of being a landlord.

1874

Id take this one on the chin, they are leaving and generally left the place clean, what you have described is not a big deal,

if you are still a landlord and dont know how bad it can get, start reading some threads, no offence,
but this is trivial, be glad you werent bilked for thousands, seems like they arent too bad

You have been unreasonable and make good landlords look bad and give them a bad name, they even offered to come back.
I had to clear a back garden out of black bin liners, it filled 2 canvas skips and it stank, there was broken beer bottles in the garden and sour milk in bloated plastic cartons, the tenant told me they would come around to help, but never arrived.

runawaybishop

CiboC wrote: »

OP here, thanks for the replies everyone.



I was pretty annoyed, I had specifically told them 4 weeks prior to their moving out that any excessive cleaning required would be charged, I even mentioned the oven and the fridge. Furthermore I told them on the day they were moving that that had left the fridge and freezer in an unacceptable condition but it was only 3 days later when I told them about a cleaning charge that there was any offer to come and clean properly, by which time I had already arranged to have it done.

Nevertheless, I have decided to reduce the charge to 50 euro.



Please back this up with a reference to relevent legislation or a reference to a RTB case, otherwise it's just a random opinion.

If I had done it myself, why would my time and effort be valued at nothing?

The RTB specifically mention:

- Leaving litter or personal items in the property.
- Leaving the property in an unhygienic or unsafe condition.
- Not returning the property in a clean manner.

As being some of the reasons why part of a deposit may be withheld (https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/deposits)

You'll need a receipt for the cleaning, your time ain't deductible. More importantly, you will need to justify the cleaning charge. A microwave that needed a wipe down won't fly with the rtb, they are heavily biased towards the tenant.

Any deductions for normal wear and tear will result in you paying them back plus more if the tenant takes you to the RTB. You are pretty much expected to pay for cleaning yourself between tenants.

Finally, that you didn't allow them to make good on the issues will also cause the RTB to find in their favour.

Graham

Agreed

Unfortunately the search function on the RTB website is so useless now, I gave up after a few minutes looking for an example to demonstrate why it might be sensible just to return the full deposit (making this post just another random opinion).

Vangoghslow

Just give the Microwave a clean and throw the stuff in a rubbish bag. You would have had it done in the time it took you to write a message on boards.

Graham

I can't help but think the OPs expectations are a little unrealistic here.

At the end of a tenancy I would expect there to be a certain amount of cleaning, touching up, maybe even the odd bit of redecorating or furniture to be replaced. Nothing major of course.

Any landlord that expects a recently vacated property to be left in new-letting ready condition is just kidding themselves.

db

Graham wrote: »

I can't help but think the OPs expectations are a little unrealistic here.

At the end of a tenancy I would expect there to be a certain amount of cleaning, touching up, maybe even the odd bit of redecorating or furniture to be replaced. Nothing major of course.

Any landlord that expects a recently vacated property to be left in new-letting ready condition is just kidding themselves.

Totally agree with this, just give back the deposit and don't be petty.

ted1

Rezident wrote: »

My cleaner does 3 hours for less than €50. How on earth is that a €100 charge?

Is your cleaner VAT registered? Do you use them regularly? 1 of cleaners cost more.

OP unless you Osi’s someone you can’t deduct costs

endofrainbow

Maybe you should invest in a frost free fridge/freezer

Graham

endofrainbow wrote: »

Maybe you should invest in a frost free fridge/freezer

Thanks. That reminds me, I need to defrost our frost free fridge/freezer. :pac:

10pennymixup

OP you are correct in your reasoning that things like the microwave and cooker should be cleaned upon termination of the tenancy.

But that's the ideal utopian scenario.

If you ever get a property back that is thousands in rent arrears, needs thousands in repairs and two skips to remove the rubbish left behind, then you too will smile at the naivety of expecting that leaving appliances dirty and a shopping bag of food is worth fighting over €100.

Unless you have out of genuine out of pocket verifiable receipts for work done, just thank your lucky stars and refund the deposit, It is just not worth your time and effort defending a RTB case out of principle for such a small sum.

You may think that they have "won" but trust me defend it and you will be the one that has lost. Your time and peace of mind is worth more.

DubLad69

Would a newly vacated property not need a good cleaning anyway before renting it out again?

I would have expected that even if the house was left in spotless condition by the previous tenants that the place would still be cleaned by the landlord. At the very least things such as a fridge, microwave, oven, shower, dishwasher, cookware etc would be cleaned?

agoodpunt

If you rent abroad there will be a cleaning charge its an irish thing the years of mom and pop LLs is changing so get used to it

Fol20

DubLad69 wrote: »

Would a newly vacated property not need a good cleaning anyway before renting it out again?

I would have expected that even if the house was left in spotless condition by the previous tenants that the place would still be cleaned by the landlord. At the very least things such as a fridge, microwave, oven, shower, dishwasher, cookware etc would be cleaned?

In terms of cleanliness. It should be given back to the ll in the same state they gave it to the tenants in.

MacDanger

OP, you're way out of line here and you're giving good landlords a bad name with your carry on

mrslancaster

Fol20 wrote: »

In terms of cleanliness. It should be given back to the ll in the same state they gave it to the tenants in.

can someone post about how that works in other countries? it can't be only the UK & Ireland that has these issues.

I've read that other countries do not rent accommodation furnished and property must be returned freshly painted and ready for new tenants. So how does it work?

Do other countries have stricter rules for tenants & how do landlords make sure rent is paid and then the property is returned in good condition. It seems to be an on going issue here.

Mimon

Vangoghslow wrote: »

Just give the Microwave a clean and throw the stuff in a rubbish bag. You would have had it done in the time it took you to write a message on boards.

This, talk about nitpicking. Sounds like an hours work max, just get it done. If the tenant left the whole place like a tip the OP would have something to complain about.

Fol20

MacDanger wrote: »

OP, you're way out of line here and you're giving good landlords a bad name with your carry on

That’s a bit strong now. I wouldn’t say he is giving ll a bad name as it’s a cost that would have been born by the tenant in any case. He just going about it in the wrong way.

the_pen_turner

MacDanger wrote: »

OP, you're way out of line here and you're giving good landlords a bad name with your carry on

The only thing the op did wrong was not getting a receipt and doing it themselves. It's the tenant that is wrong here. Obviously it's the milder end of wrong but still wrong

Mimon

the_pen_turner wrote: »

The only thing the op did wrong was not getting a receipt and doing it themselves. It's the tenant that is wrong here. Obviously it's the milder end of wrong but still wrong

Seriously, wrong in what World. The tenant gave the place a decent clean. He probably didn't appreciate the landlord listing out what should be done so gave him two fingers in not going beyond this.. Approached in the wrong way totally by the OP

Up to the landlord to have it ready for the next tenant and to pay for anything above and beyond reasonably clean or do it themselves.

If it was a days work or something that would be unreasonable but looks like an hours work for the OP to get it to their standards.

Life isn't perfect and if you want something sorted just get on with it.

Fol20

Mimon wrote: »

Seriously, wrong in what World. The tenant gave the place a decent clean. He probably didn't appreciate the landlord listing out what should be done so gave him two fingers in not going beyond this.. Approached in the wrong way totally by the OP

Up to the landlord to have it ready for the next tenant and to pay for anything above and beyond reasonably clean or do it themselves.

If it was a days work or something that would be unreasonable but looks like an hours work for the OP to get it to their standards.

Life isn't perfect and if you want something sorted just get on with it.

Cleanliness isn’t wear and tear. Why should the ll pay for lack of effort by the tenant? Even if it’s 1hour work, why does the ll have to suck it up when it’s the tenant duty to give it back to the ll in the same clean state. We always see very strong opinions if the sides were reversed so why can it not be equal especially for this aspect. As others have pointed out, in other more professional countries you automatically deduct a cleaning fee.

In terms of you taking offence to the ll point out specific items to be cleaned. I would read it the opposite way. From experience tenants miss certain things when cleaning so I also tell tenants specific items to ensure they are cleaned before I go for the inspection. In the past when I didn’t point these out. Tenants were more than happy to reclean it before I deduct from the deposit So the ll is merely pointing out spots that can be missed to avoid any dispute. Communication is key here so I don’t see why you have a problem with it.

the_pen_turner

Mimon wrote: »

Seriously, wrong in what World. The tenant gave the place a decent clean. He probably didn't appreciate the landlord listing out what should be done so gave him two fingers in not going beyond this.. Approached in the wrong way totally by the OP

Up to the landlord to have it ready for the next tenant and to pay for anything above and beyond reasonably clean or do it themselves.

If it was a days work or something that would be unreasonable but looks like an hours work for the OP to get it to their standards.

Life isn't perfect and if you want something sorted just get on with it.

clearly in the wrong. we are no talking about a few crumbs in the corner of a press , OP said bags of rubbish in the presses. that means they didnt even atempt to clean them.
it is part of the contract that the tennant entered into and they broke that contract and so should have to pay to remody it.

MacDanger

Fol20 wrote: »

That’s a bit strong now. I wouldn’t say he is giving ll a bad name as it’s a cost that would have been born by the tenant in any case. He just going about it in the wrong way.

The OP is wrongly attempting to keep €100 of the tenant's money - that's giving good LLs a bad name imo.

To avoid these types of disputes, would it be possible for a property owner to pay for a cleaner at the start of a let (receipt provided to tenant to prove that it was done) and for the lease to contain a stipulation that the tenant pays for the same cleaner to clean the property at the end of the let. Then the owner provides this receipt to the next tenant, etc.

MacDanger

the_pen_turner wrote: »

clearly in the wrong. we are no talking about a few crumbs in the corner of a press , OP said bags of rubbish in the presses. that means they didnt even atempt to clean them.
it is part of the contract that the tennant entered into and they broke that contract and so should have to pay to remody it.

I don't think the OP does say that

the_pen_turner

MacDanger wrote: »

I don't think the OP does say that

just re read it. op doesnt say bags of rubbish but does say that there is food left in the kitchen presses. that is still unacceptable

the_pen_turner

MacDanger wrote: »

The OP is wrongly attempting to keep €100 of the tenant's money - that's giving good LLs a bad name imo.

To avoid these types of disputes, would it be possible for a property owner to pay for a cleaner at the start of a let (receipt provided to tenant to prove that it was done) and for the lease to contain a stipulation that the tenant pays for the same cleaner to clean the property at the end of the let. Then the owner provides this receipt to the next tenant, etc.

why is it wrong. the tennant left the mess and the OP had to clean it up. only thing they did wrong was not paying someone else to do it

runawaybishop

the_pen_turner wrote: »

why is it wrong. the tennant left the mess and the OP had to clean it up. only thing they did wrong was not paying someone else to do it

Nope, RTB will find for the tenant as the LL didn't give the tenant a chance to rectify the issues.

Remember, it's the RTB. If the tenant set fire to the LL they would probably claim he is partially responsible for wearing clothes.

MacDanger

the_pen_turner wrote: »

why is it wrong. the tennant left the mess and the OP had to clean it up. only thing they did wrong was not paying someone else to do it

It's already been explained here why the OP was wrong to do what they did

Lux23

I would hit the roof if a landlord charged me for this. Any place I moved into needed to be thoroughly cleaned so you want to be certain that you handed the place over in the same condition you're expecting at the end of the tenancy.

Edgware

Another example of why landlords are pulling out of the market.
PRTB Attitude. Tenant good, Landlord bad.

Edgware

runawaybishop wrote: »

Nope, RTB will find for the tenant as the LL didn't give the tenant a chance to rectify the issues.

Remember, it's the RTB. If the tenant set fire to the LL they would probably claim he is partially responsible for wearing clothes.

No penalty on the tenant though for leaving it in a mess. Now O Broin the S.F. expert is whinging because over 20,000 properties have been sold off by accidental landlords. What do you expect O Broin? Landlords to lie down and continue to be kicked around by RTB and tenants?

Fol20

MacDanger wrote: »

The OP is wrongly attempting to keep €100 of the tenant's money - that's giving good LLs a bad name imo.

To avoid these types of disputes, would it be possible for a property owner to pay for a cleaner at the start of a let (receipt provided to tenant to prove that it was done) and for the lease to contain a stipulation that the tenant pays for the same cleaner to clean the property at the end of the let. Then the owner provides this receipt to the next tenant, etc.

I get what you are saying however This type of dispute in the grander scheme of things is tiny given its 50e. Its more of an educational opportunity for the ll but the cost would have been a minimum of 50e either way for the tenant.

I think both the LL and tenant want to avoid paying for a cleaner as its more hassle and cost.

Fol20

Lux23 wrote: »

I would hit the roof if a landlord charged me for this. Any place I moved into needed to be thoroughly cleaned so you want to be certain that you handed the place over in the same condition you're expecting at the end of the tenancy.

I always hand my properties to tenants in a clean state and most tenants would do their own clean as well(this is their decision though)

Having misc bags,rubbish anda fridge that isnt clean though would need to be cleaned before it would be acceptable for another tenant to move in if its a medium to high end place.

mrslancaster

Fol20 wrote: »

I always hand my properties to tenants in a clean state and most tenants would do their own clean as well(this is their decision though)

Having misc bags,rubbish anda fridge that isnt clean though would need to be cleaned before it would be acceptable for another tenant to move in if its a medium to high end place.

Agree the tenant should expect the accommodation to be spotless at handover.
maybe as another poster suggested, a cleaning charge paid for by the tenant who is leaving could be one way to do that. On the other hand maybe landlords should see cleaning/repainting etc as a cost of renting and suck it up. Don't know the answer.

JimmyVik

newmember? wrote: »

€50 charge and do it yourself.

If you do this they'll take you to the RTB and win.
Pay a professional company, even if its €250.
That way you will have a receipt for it if they take you to the rtb.

Claw Hammer

I think it is trivial. Anyone in business who gets upset by something like this is going to have a hard time. people go into pubs, cafes, hotels etc and leave a mess. The proprietor just has to deal with it. It is part of the overheads.

Fol20

mrslancaster wrote: »

Agree the tenant should expect the accommodation to be spotless at handover.
maybe as another poster suggested, a cleaning charge paid for by the tenant who is leaving could be one way to do that. On the other hand maybe landlords should see cleaning/repainting etc as a cost of renting and suck it up. Don't know the answer.

Cleaning no, repainting yes.

Several countries do offer a cleaning charge in the lease that the tenant agrees to pay. Not really sure if that should become the norm here as it’s more costs for tenants.

CiboC

OP here, I see it's been a busy few days... to address these items before closing off this...

MacDanger wrote: »

OP, you're way out of line here and you're giving good landlords a bad name with your carry on

I think your defintion of 'way out of line' needs adjusting - It's out of line to expect that the RTB rules for tenants vacating a property are followed?

I was a tenant for many years and would have been embarrassed to leave an apartment dirty.

Mimon wrote: »

This, talk about nitpicking. Sounds like an hours work max, just get it done.

It's more than an hours work to clear out a fridge & freezer, defrost it, take all the shelving and drawers out, wash and dry then and wash and dry the inside of the cabinet. at least it is if you do it to the standard I would expect and the standard I expect to deliver to a new tenant, YMMV.

the_pen_turner wrote: »

The only thing the op did wrong was not getting a receipt and doing it themselves. It's the tenant that is wrong here. Obviously it's the milder end of wrong but still wrong

I never actually said I did it myself, I said if I had done it myself why would my time be valued at nothing...

Mimon wrote: »

Seriously, wrong in what World. The tenant gave the place a decent clean. He probably didn't appreciate the landlord listing out what should be done so gave him two fingers in not going beyond this.. Approached in the wrong way totally by the OP

The tenant asked to deduct the final rent period (a partial month) from the deposit and asked to clarify about the return of the balance. There were some wear and tear items that I was aware of already so I confirmed there would be no deduction for them, but also clarified what was expected for full return of the rest and pointed out that appliances needed to be cleaned. As far as I am concerned this is information that the tenant asked for.

the_pen_turner wrote: »

clearly in the wrong. we are no talking about a few crumbs in the corner of a press , OP said bags of rubbish in the presses.

Bags of rubbish is a bit too far and, in fairness, I didn't actually say that. There was eventually two bin bags full, most of which came from the fridge and the freezer.

runawaybishop wrote: »

Nope, RTB will find for the tenant as the LL didn't give the tenant a chance to rectify the issues.

I told them the condition of the appliances was not acceptable on the day they moved out, they completely ignored that comment until a few days later and, funnily enough, only offered to come back and clean after I told them I was putting a charge against the deposit. They had a chance to rectify it.

MacDanger wrote: »

It's already been explained here why the OP was wrong to do what they did

No it hasn't, just various opinions have been expressed.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

people go into pubs, cafes, hotels etc and leave a mess. The proprietor just has to deal with it. It is part of the overheads.

Comparing a tenant moving out of a long term residential situation with pubs, hotels and cafes that have cleaners employed full time is not a valid comparision. In those cases the customer is paying the cost of the cleaning as it is built into the price they pay for services. In the case of a tenancy there is no seperate cleaning charge built in to the rent, that is partially what the deposit is supposed to cover, as stated by the RTB themselves.

I've been a landlord for many years and have never had a bad experience with a tenant yet. I very carefully vet whoever goes in to the properties and treat them fairly - and expect to be treated fairly in return. Any time a new tenant goes in the property is spotlessly clean (with an empty, defrosted, spotlessly clean fridge!!).

In this case I was asked about any possible deductions from the deposit, gave clear information about what was expected and that was ignored.

After further conversation with the tenant it appears this is a result of a disagreement between them and their flatmate who was supposed to do this job and didn't bother. They have agreed to the deduction and they are going to hold it from their flatmates part of the deposit.

the_pen_turner

2 bags is a lot.