Employees will have right to request remote working under new laws - Irish Examiner

The Spider

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No: they just have policies that say employees-only in working areas, and visitors must be accompanied by an employee at all times, and escorted from the building. It's really painful lurking outside a toilet block waiting for someone, but I've had to do it more than once.

This week, I've been taking support from employees in a SME organisation that's currently 100% WFH. Quite a few clearly had children in the background (wouldn't be acceptable in non-pandemic times). About 30% had woeful broadband, which was the cause of their issue. I had to parrot the "you need to contact your broadband provider, or get an alternative one" line - knowing full well that in some cases there are no better alternatives in the places these folks are living. Two told me they were sitting at the kitchen table - ergonomics, yeah!

You’re reaching here, you really are, children will be in the background when schools and childcare facilities are closed due to the pandemic, so suck it up everyone has to.

Unless you’re working on some seriously top secret stuff that security issue is ludicrous most people don’t, apple as has been pointed out before has thousands of remote staff in Ireland as does Shopify and others.

Oh and what about contractors? Contractors can work from home if they wish as they are regarded by law as individual businesses, and if they have to show up and work at the same desk every day using company equipment rather than their own, then as far as the law is concerned they’re an employee and not a contractor so will have the same protections as an employee.

When I contracted and any time I worked with contractors people came and went as they pleased.

Broadband is a fair point, and theoretically if your broadband is terrible it could be used as a reason that you can’t work from home, although don’t know where that would stand in a court of law.

Can’t understand how people don’t see this as a good thing, although it’ll probably scare the bejaysus out of the networking types, the people who spend their days talking and having coffee to be moved up the chain, while they can keep an eye on their teams.

Also I suppose some management types like to keep an eye on everything someone on their team is doing, and keeping potential challengers for their position in their team at bay.

If everyone is working from home that guy or girl who gets on with the CEO could be doing work for them without the managers knowledge, or without the manager figuring out how to take most of the credit. (Doesn’t happen everywhere but does happen especially in political organizations)

adocholiday

I live in South Wicklow and pre-pandemic I was commuting to Dundrum every day by car. My employer was flexible with time so I was thankfully able to avoid the rush hour on the M11 and my commute generally was an hour each way. I didn't mind it to be honest I was in a routine and it worked for me but I also knew no different.

Since Leo gave his speech from the US last March I've been 100% working from home and the benefits are clear to see. I have better sleep, I eat a healthy breakfast and go for a short walk before work. No stressful commute, no worrying about traffic jams. I sit at my desk and do my work like I always have. If I have some downtime during the day, which I think most people do now and then, instead of pretending to work I get some light chores done. At the end of the day I turn off and I'm already home. Again no stress, maybe get another stroll in, eat dinner at a reasonable hour and have the evening to myself. Before I was getting home at 7, evening already gone and would have to do chores etc.

WFH has had such an immensely positive impact on my life and my productivity at work hasn't dropped a jot. In fact I'd say I'm more productive because I have less distractions. My health has improved, both physical and mental, I'm spending much less than I was because I'm not getting coffees and lunch out, and I have so much more time to myself to indulge my hobbies etc.

I think given the choice I'd like to work 2 days in the office and 3 from home in the long term, but I will never go back to 5 days per week in the office if I can help it.

Marty1983

I work in the public service in a area which would not typically be known as innovative. I could not have imagined 12 months ago that WFH would be successful. Like everyone else we have KPI's and the productivity has certainly gone up in many areas. Granted the people in the office who stand around chatting will no doubt slack off at home but for the majority its benificial. Removing the commute, cost of parking etc has had a huge impact on my own personal mental health.

you2008

is_that_so wrote: »

The WFH paradigm is a lot more complicated than just being at home. The climate impact is not really a justification at all, as we move towards more climate friendly technologies. There will also need to be a solution to the potential isolation and productivity issues. It may also require locations so that people can congregate as one cannot nor should not spend a working life at the end of a screen. Sectoral requirements are also part of the equation.

The climate impact is huge, myself used to do 60km per day on diesel before the pandemic. I am sure you don’t need me to teach you how to do the maths. i can not believe people can not see the bigger pictures here, for years we are talking about the rural Ireland this is the only chance to turn it around.

is_that_so

you2008 wrote: »

The climate impact is huge, myself used to do 60km per day on diesel before the pandemic.

Really not a fan of doing this but fixed that post for you. My point was about new technologies coming in but pontificate away.

thomas 123

is_that_so wrote: »

Really not a fan of doing this but fixed that post for you. My point was about new technologies coming in but pontificate away.

None will be as impact-full as a mass work from home movement in the next 5-10 years though. I think it also opens doors for a lot of people to low-mid market EV's for short school runs now that they will be working close to schools and local amenities right?

Many more people could become more interested in projects like this https://communitypower.ie/our-story/ once they finally exit the time sink that is the rat race.

Your argument goes both ways.

CrazyFather1

Another consideration about working from home is roads. The wear and tear on roads would be massively reduced if more people are working from home.
If the government and companies are pushing work from home it also needs to work both ways. Working from home should be promoted but the government need to resolve the SEAI grant system for home owners. At the moment the "grant" for most items is just used as extra cash for contractors. The home owner is not getting the benefit. Take solar PV for instance, the price to home owner went up 3k when the grant was introduced. This has to be sorted out so working from home people can avail of solar PV and install easily if they are a home owner

Lots of consideration if the government went about this right but they probably won't.

thomas 123

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Another consideration about working from home is roads. The wear and tear on roads would be massively reduced if more people are working from home.
If the government and companies are pushing work from home it also needs to work both ways. Working from home should be promoted but the government need to resolve the SEAI grant system for home owners. At the moment the "grant" for most items is just used as extra cash for contractors. The home owner is not getting the benefit. Take solar PV for instance, the price to home owner went up 3k when the grant was introduced. This has to be sorted out so working from home people can avail of solar PV and install easily if they are a home owner

Lots of consideration if the government went about this right but they probably won't.

That's a great idea, might be worth mentioning to local TD's.

Augme

thomas 123 wrote: »

Such as?

Any area of work where you need to mention a customer/client personal details on a call. If you use any paper files for clients.

AndrewJRenko

The Spider wrote: »

Absolute nonsense, last time I checked 99.9percent of offices in Dublin dont have individual lockable rooms for employees either, they have open plan offices with everyone on top of each other, with a desk and a few drawers you can lock, in fact you'll more than likely have more privacy at home than you would in an office.

lawred2 wrote: »

What on earth is a lockable room in an office context?

And who needs those outside of maybe security services?

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Lockable rooms :-) next someone will mention you need a panic room for your laptop :-) I would also suggest they read up the company policies on why they have to follow around visitors in their offices.

You don't need a locked room in an office scenario because you have control over who gets in and out of the office area. You lose this control in a WFH scenario. You don't know who's nosing around at the desk, or listening in on the call or video chat.

It could be a nosey spouse or sibling, or the overnight guest of the housemate that you've never met or whatever. There is a substantial loss of control, which has substantial impacts for security, GDPR, confidentiality.

is_that_so wrote: »

The WFH paradigm is a lot more complicated than just being at home. The climate impact is not really a justification at all, as we move towards more climate friendly technologies. There will also need to be a solution to the potential isolation and productivity issues. It may also require locations so that people can congregate as one cannot nor should not spend a working life at the end of a screen. Sectoral requirements are also part of the equation.

This is getting into some important areas. The 'water cooler' chats that employees have are often a very important communication channel, helping people to build relationships and understand what is going on in other parts of the organisation. Cutting out or drastically reducing all of these chats is going to have a long term impact.

thomas 123 wrote: »

Firstly this is being done by many WFH companies already.

Secondly technology already allows video calling, many would argue regular congregations actually lead to less productivity.

Bethesda(A video game company) works in an office, they have a policy that meetings must be held standing up, why? So employees don't waste time talking about things that do not need to be discussed. This was in a documentary I watched on the company foundation so it may not be the case anymore but I am sure other posters may have more examples.

Stand up meetings are discriminatory against people with disabilities and older people.

Bigmac1euro

Most of what I’ve read here makes sense but it’s not realistic. Our government are dinosaurs for the most part. We all will be or most will be 9-5 Monday to Friday stuck in a crash on the m50 before you know it. Stop dreaming. I work for a semi state company and they already tried to drag people back during a lockdown which caused a big row between management.
I’ve heard some of the senior mgmt (also dinosaurs) are pushing to get people back ASAP. So something tells me productivity is not as good as it was. Nobody has the pressure of their peers overlooking their work sitting 3 foot away.

I don’t think we’ll convert to even a half week from home and most companies will go back to BAU working 9-5 in office.
Enjoy the time home with your families while you can folks because it’s all going to be over in the blink of an eye.

thomas 123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Stand up meetings are discriminatory against people with disabilities and older people.

You will throw anything in the ring to try further this wont you?

Sure making a person in that predicament come to work is way worse in that case.

Sonic the Shaghog

I suppose one thing that may help against outsourcing is wage cuts depending on locations like what happened with Facebook slashing wages of those leaving SF

I mean I'm sure lots of Dublin jobs have a salary bump for the location so if someone is moving out of there and driving in 1 or 2 days a week there's savings to be made there for companies

CrazyFather1

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You don't need a locked room in an office scenario because you have control over who gets in and out of the office area. You lose this control in a WFH scenario. You don't know who's nosing around at the desk, or listening in on the call or video chat.

It could be a nosey spouse or sibling, or the overnight guest of the housemate that you've never met or whatever. There is a substantial loss of control, which has substantial impacts for security, GDPR, confidentiality.




This is getting into some important areas. The 'water cooler' chats that employees have are often a very important communication channel, helping people to build relationships and understand what is going on in other parts of the organisation. Cutting out or drastically reducing all of these chats is going to have a long term impact.



Stand up meetings are discriminatory against people with disabilities and older people.

If you have random people walking around your house you have bigger issues than work from home to be honest

It won't suit everyone, I don't think anyone is saying that. But it should be an option for people that it does suit

CrazyFather1

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

I suppose one thing that may help against outsourcing is wage cuts depending on locations like what happened with Facebook slashing wages of those leaving SF

I mean I'm sure lots of Dublin jobs have a salary bump for the location so if someone is moving out of there and driving in 1 or 2 days a week there's savings to be made there for companies

You will see posts on boards of people who are willing to spends days sitting in a car because they want "Dublin wages"

You have already seen the likes of eBay advertising job which are remote only and have a lower basic wage as you don't need to travel., I expect this to come more common

irelandrover

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

If you have random people walking around your house you have bigger issues than work from home to be honest

It won't suit everyone, I don't think anyone is saying that. But it should be an option for people that it does suit

I have people in my house that aren't random to me but are to my company. They haven't signed a non disclosure agreement that I had to to work with some of our clients.

WFH is a risk to the privacy of clients. Maybe my wife's friend visits while I'm on a conference call and she overhears something she shouldn't.

thomas 123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You don't need a locked room in an office scenario because you have control over who gets in and out of the office area. You lose this control in a WFH scenario. You don't know who's nosing around at the desk, or listening in on the call or video chat.

It could be a nosey spouse or sibling, or the overnight guest of the housemate that you've never met or whatever. There is a substantial loss of control, which has substantial impacts for security, GDPR, confidentiality.




This is getting into some important areas. The 'water cooler' chats that employees have are often a very important communication channel, helping people to build relationships and understand what is going on in other parts of the organisation. Cutting out or drastically reducing all of these chats is going to have a long term impact.



Stand up meetings are discriminatory against people with disabilities and older people.

By the way there is this thing called a password on most computers.

Furthermore the most basic IT systems now have 2FA when accessing any software containing PII.

If you happen to be in a business that for some reason keeps your customers PII on paper;
- Get your door lock.
- lock your filing cabinet.
- your employer will still be responsible for any breech, but may take sack you as a result.
- you personally shouldn’t be leaving notes around your house contain sensitive information. The same way you wouldn’t be leaving them in an office common area.

The Spider

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

I suppose one thing that may help against outsourcing is wage cuts depending on locations like what happened with Facebook slashing wages of those leaving SF

I mean I'm sure lots of Dublin jobs have a salary bump for the location so if someone is moving out of there and driving in 1 or 2 days a week there's savings to be made there for companies

This wont work to be honest, in fact companies down the country who were paying lower wages will more than likely have to raise them now that they'll be faced with competition from Dublin companies and multi nationals poaching their previously untouchable staff. For instance if someone is a great software engineer or UX designer living in Limerick or Clare and working for one of the local firms there, they can now work for the higher paying Dublin companies and still live in Clare.

Tech companies will compete for the best talent and more often than not that means money, in fact now it definitley means money, this legislation will remove one of the perks that smaller or lower paying tech companies offered and that was working from home, now every company offers it, so it's no longer a perk its a work standard.

Appreciate that the above applies to tech companies, however arguablly it can be applied to call centres etc.

The vast majority of my company have been WFH since March.
They already had a WFH policy from around 2014 - most people worked 1-2 days at home each week, a few did 3 days. It was left up to each team to organise themselves - generally we were all in on one particular day (usually Monday) so we could have meeting, discuss cases, etc.

At this stage, I don't think any of us would like to continue 100% WFH. While the work gets done and productivity hasn't dropped, the isolation and lack of team-bonding is getting to some people. We expect that when restrictions ease, vaccines are rolled out etc - we will end up moving to a 1-2 days in the office and 3-4 days at home situation. Which would be an acceptable compromise.

Sonic the Shaghog

The Spider wrote: »

This wont work to be honest, in fact companies down the country who were paying lower wages will more than likely have to raise them now that they'll be faced with competition from Dublin companies and multi nationals poaching their previously untouchable staff. For instance if someone is a great software engineer or UX designer living in Limerick or Clare and working for one of the local firms there, they can now work for the higher paying Dublin companies and still live in Clare.

Tech companies will compete for the best talent and more often than not that means money, in fact now it definitley means money, this legislation will remove one of the perks that smaller or lower paying tech companies offered and that was working from home, now every company offers it, so it's no longer a perk its a work standard.

Appreciate that the above applies to tech companies, however arguablly it can be applied to call centres etc.

They said the same about Facebook and Twitter in the US and it's the opposite happened. If it's an area with a skills shortage well then you'll always get more to get and keep you regardless

caviardreams

I think 2 days on-site, 3 days at home or that ballpark makes most sense. There really are lots of people who want to be 100% WFH though - and I actually think this makes things difficult for those who *do* want to work on site for collaboration benefits and relationship building etc 2 days a week or whatever, as they don't get the emotional support or connection they may need.

I think there needs to be a middle ground and the legislation should recognise that - even if an individual doesn't think they benefit whatsoever from 20% on-site working, the organisation/others on the team probably will and it's about give and take on this. It's not about monitoring or keeping an eye on people - but managing a team where people feel more connected to each other and the job by working together 1 day a week or whatever vs isolated, disconnected people who are completely out of touch with the rest of the org and team (but maybe don't realise this at a personal level) is a lot easier and long-term probably more successful.

Patsy167

Massive opportunity for Rural towns in Ireland this. Those that get it right by having all of the required facilities - Remote working hubs, gyms, parks, childcare, broadband have the potential to thrive

AndrewJRenko

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

If you have random people walking around your house you have bigger issues than work from home to be honest

From a business point of view, any non-employee is 'a random person'. The employee's spouse, children, housemates, housemates' partners - it doesn't matter. If they're not an employee, they are a stranger, with no contractual obligation to confidentiality.

thomas 123 wrote: »

By the way there is this thing called a password on most computers.

Furthermore the most basic IT systems now have 2FA when accessing any software containing PII.

If you happen to be in a business that for some reason keeps your customers PII on paper;

- Get your door lock.
- lock your filing cabinet.
- your employer will still be responsible for any breech, but may take sack you as a result.
- you personally shouldn’t be leaving notes around your house contain sensitive information. The same way you wouldn’t be leaving them in an office common area.

Passwords are great when everyone remembers to lock their screen, and not have their password on a yellow sticky note on the desk. Door locks are no use for those who are based at the kitchen table. Not everyone has a spare room to donate to their employer's business.

And then there is the paper - does anyone have a lockable filing cabinet at home with space for work materials?

AndrewJRenko

thomas 123 wrote: »

You will throw anything in the ring to try further this wont you?

Sure making a person in that predicament come to work is way worse in that case.

It's really a seperate issue and off-topic. I was just making the point, sometimes missed by businesses that are full of mostly fit and healthy twenty-something and thirty-something lads, that not everyone can stand, even for a 15-30 minute meeting.

Antares35

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

If you have random people walking around your house you have bigger issues than work from home to be honest

It won't suit everyone, I don't think anyone is saying that. But it should be an option for people that it does suit

Yes I also thought it was strange to suggest one has no control over who is in their house!

OH uses the spare room as an office and just keeps it locked when we aren't in the house, in case of break in or someone with a key e.g. parents, pet sitter, neighbour coming in. Not that I don't trust these people, they wouldn't have a key otherwise, but he has peace of mind. A lock on the door is hardly a big deal to arrange.

Antares35

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

From a business point of view, any non-employee is 'a random person'. The employee's spouse, children, housemates, housemates' partners - it doesn't matter. If they're not an employee, they are a stranger, with no contractual obligation to confidentiality.




Passwords are great when everyone remembers to lock their screen, and not have their password on a yellow sticky note on the desk. Door locks are no use for those who are based at the kitchen table. Not everyone has a spare room to donate to their employer's business.

And then there is the paper - does anyone have a lockable filing cabinet at home with space for work materials?

Do they leave their laptop on the kitchen table all night? Why can't they bring it into their room (assuming they aren't sharing a bunk bed too).

The Spider

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

They said the same about Facebook and Twitter in the US and it's the opposite happened. If it's an area with a skills shortage well then you'll always get more to get and keep you regardless

Massive difference in the US and Ireland, people moving to a different state is essentially the same as moving to a different country in Europe.

Moving to a different county to Dublin, taking into account that the furthest point from Dublin is Dursley Island in county Cork, which is 330km essentially 3/4 of the distance between San Francisco and LA, is a completely different proposition.

Vast majority of people are going to be between 1 and 2.5 hours away from Dublin driving, so it’s not the same as the wage difference between say Idaho and San Francisco.

I’m not sure there’s a huge wage differential for jobs in Dublin vs rest of Ireland in traditional sectors, I don’t think a gard or a nurse gets paid more if they’re stationed in Dublin, same for Hairdressers or people working in shops, unless you own the business.

However there can be quite stark differences in salaries for IT people in Dublin vs the rest of the country for the simple reason most of the big companies are there.

The Spider

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And then there is the paper - does anyone have a lockable filing cabinet at home with space for work materials?

If this is an issue the employer should provide it, just as they provide computer equipment etc.

Mrs OBumble

Antares35 wrote: »

. A lock on the door is hardly a big deal to arrange.

Sure.

But the spare room is lot harder to get.

Especially if you need one each.

Antares35

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sure.

But the spare room is lot harder to get.

Especially if you need one each.

Indeed. I don't have one for my own work.

We live in a two bedroom house with a child and we make it work.