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Contesting a will, capacity

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135

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    #62
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    EmilyBClare wrote: »
    Exactly, he wants to do it anyway - both him and his wife have this outlook on life as to whom they can annoy or upset next. I walked away years ago for sake of my health. I couldn't be around people like that.

    If he is well off, (I get the impression he is) he might be happy to cut the nose of his face to annoy everyone else.

    Would it be an idea to get the solicitor to draft up an agreement to transfer the property to him after the estate is distributed. Sent it to his solicitor. Then park it. If you don't care about the inheritance any delays aren't really effecting you. Unless of course there is tax building up for you.


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    #63
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    It might be easier from a personal point of view to just give him the land and be done with it. Like removing a plaster. Just rip it off and get it over and done with rather than dragging it out over a longer period.

    I think the issue is how to do that. They can't do that until the estate is distributed. He seeking to block that.

    He sounds like the kind who would run up a 100k solicitor bill over a 10k inheritance.


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    #64
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    beauf wrote: »
    I think the issue is how to do that. They can't do that until the estate is distributed. He seeking to block that.

    He sounds like the kind who would run up a 100k solicitor bill over a 10k inheritance.

    Just put it to him. via a solicitor.


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    #65
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,764 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    My mother created a will and an EPOA after her diagnosis. Her gerentologist had to confirm that she had the capacity to do so. there is no grey area.

    Once again someone not reading what I wrote. I said it would be foolish of a solicitor/witness to rubber stamp that will. In your mother's case they didn't, they got her gerentoligist involved making sure they weren't leaving themselves open to a challenge when she died.


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    #66
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    beauf wrote: »
    If he is well off, (I get the impression he is) he might be happy to cut the nose of his face to annoy everyone else.

    Would it be an idea to get the solicitor to draft up an agreement to transfer the property to him after the estate is distributed. Sent it to his solicitor. Then park it. If you don't care about the inheritance any delays aren't really effecting you. Unless of course there is tax building up for you.

    He is well off, exactly.

    This is something he is enjoying folks, trust me, letters to the solicitors to annoy my family are the highlight of his week.

    Delays aren't affecting me at all, the revenue has ben paid. The point is to draw a close on this so I can move on.


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    #67
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    beauf wrote: »
    I think the issue is how to do that. They can't do that until the estate is distributed. He seeking to block that.

    He sounds like the kind who would run up a 100k solicitor bill over a 10k inheritance.

    He is exactly that type.


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    #68
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,764 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    EmilyBClare wrote: »
    He is well off, exactly.

    This is something he is enjoying folks, trust me, letters to the solicitors to annoy my family are the highlight of his week.

    Delays aren't affecting me at all, the revenue has ben paid. The point is to draw a close on this so I can move on.

    The thread seems to have taken off on a tangent of land etc. What exactly are his letters to the solicitor saying? What is he actually looking for? The original post said he had doubts regarding your father's mental capacity at the time the will was written, is this still the case?


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    #69
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    CoBo55 wrote: »
    Once again someone not reading what I wrote. I said it would be foolish of a solicitor/witness to rubber stamp that will. In your mother's case they didn't, they got her gerentoligist involved making sure they weren't leaving themselves open to a challenge when she died.

    I read what you wrote. You said it was a grey area. It isn't. There are Law Society guidelines that cover it.

    https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/Drafting-Wills-for-the-Elderly-Client--Guidelines-for-Solicitors/#.YAV2a-j7Q2w


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    #70
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    CoBo55 wrote: »
    The thread seems to have taken off on a tangent of land etc. What exactly are his letters to the solicitor saying? What is he actually looking for? The original post said he had doubts regarding your father's mental capacity at the time the will was written, is this still the case?

    Dads capacity "as of the date of the said will"


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    #71
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,764 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I read what you wrote. You said it was a grey area. It isn't. There are Law Society guidelines that cover it.

    https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/Drafting-Wills-for-the-Elderly-Client--Guidelines-for-Solicitors/#.YAV2a-j7Q2w

    Good link that, thanks. Even in the link it says it can be tricky. If it was my client I think I'd pass. Looks like the op's brother is going to make it extremely difficult. Maybe he does have grounds, his solicitor must think so if he's working for him.


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    #72
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Is there anyway to get it ruled as "vexatious" challenge.


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    #73
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    CoBo55 wrote: »
    Good link that, thanks. Even in the link it says it can be tricky. If it was my client I think I'd pass. Looks like the op's brother is going to make it extremely difficult. Maybe he does have grounds, his solicitor must think so if he's working for him.




    He may have grounds, agreed - I am not from a legal background, so I cant say!?

    My father made his will in private and I never discussed this with him. There was no undue influence from anyone (that I am aware of).

    The brother in question also wasn't speaking to my father at the time the will was made.


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    #74
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,764 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    EmilyBClare wrote: »
    He may have grounds, agreed - I am not from a legal background, so I cant say!?

    My father made his will in private and I never discussed this with him. There was no undue influence from anyone (that I am aware of).

    The brother in question also wasn't speaking to my father at the time the will was made.

    Leave all the not speaking stuff to one side.
    What is his solicitor looking for? Is he actually asking for anything or is it just threats?
    I got threats from family members directly and one communicated via a solicitor, they never asked for anything specifically so myself and the solicitor pushed on and submitted everything required to the probate office.
    I continued to get group type emails from one family member in particular saying I was too stupid to be executor blah blah blah. Nothing beyond that was done so the estate was distributed according to dad's wishes. I wish you luck. Keep you eye on the prize and push on if you can. Make him do the work, not you. Anything he asks for send it to him he seems to think you've something to hide.


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    #75
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    CoBo55 wrote: »
    Good link that, thanks. Even in the link it says it can be tricky. If it was my client I think I'd pass. Looks like the op's brother is going to make it extremely difficult. Maybe he does have grounds, his solicitor must think so if he's working for him.

    I don't think you can presume that at all. Solicitors act on instructions. They send letters with baseless claims all the time.


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    #76
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,764 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I don't think you can presume that at all. Solicitors act on instructions. They send letters with baseless claims all the time.

    I did say Maybe. Believe me I know that they can send baseless letters, very stressful.


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    #77
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    Thanks so much to you all for the advise and thoughts - if anything, talking it through has been a help. A vent.

    I will keep the this thread updated on how it is all going.

    I will persevere.


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    #78
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    How long is your brother occupying that piece of land?


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    #79
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    How long is your brother occupying that piece of land?

    His home and business are there for up to 20 years, however, the boundary fence has been moving slowly and slowly out over the last 6 years.

    The land isn't the main issue here, its his sense of entitlement.


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    #80
    Vestiapx
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Vestiapx


    EmilyBClare wrote: »
    His home and business are there for up to 20 years, however, the boundary fence has been moving slowly and slowly out over the last 6 years.

    The land isn't the main issue here, its his sense of entitlement.
    If that's the case why did be ask to be left out of the will?
    Did be think be was getting the land and want nothing else or did he not want anything from the will but change his mind.


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    #81
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    EmilyBClare wrote: »
    His home and business are there for up to 20 years, however, the boundary fence has been moving slowly and slowly out over the last 6 years.

    The land isn't the main issue here, its his sense of entitlement.

    Pardon my French, but your brother sounds like a sh1te.

    My opinion, worth nothing by the way, depends on how you want to go about it but if all he wants to do is cause hassle, nothing may work, in which case just get your solicitor to push ahead with everything as is.

    My understanding is that technically, other than potentially squatters rights, everything else he is on is yours and your brothers.

    Option 1. Push ahead, ignore him and let the solicitor find the easiest way out of it and have the cost of that taken out of the estate. The upsides are you get to stick it to him a bit without having to do much other than read letters and issue instruction. Downside, it could drag a bit with him living on the land and you sound like you just want it closed off.

    Option 2. Get a document drawn up by your solicitor, in conjunction with his, stating you and the brother will hand over that bit of land to him as is, once the will is done. Make sure you get a decent person to do a GPS track of the boundary for submission to the land registry (better than the old school way where they have a fair bit of lee way on the edge of the land in rural areas in my experience). He will have to pay tax on it but he made his bed, and if he hadn't been such a sh1te, he wouldn't have too.

    Just opinions, may not even be legally possible.


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    #82
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Vestiapx wrote: »
    If that's the case why did be ask to be left out of the will?
    Did be think be was getting the land and want nothing else or did he not want anything from the will but change his mind.

    Maybe he opted himself out of the will to write himself out of the debt owed on the Fair-Deal scheme !!! So with the rest of the other land paying it off, he now declares that the land that was the fathers... is his?

    Just conjecturing here, but it's a very odd thing -vexatiousness aside- to opt yourself out of a will, and then contest the will later.

    Is it a substantial amount owed to the Fair-Deal OP?, although, it sounds like your brother would frame someone out of a penny.


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    #83
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Technically they can't remove the land from the fair deal valuation. But you can pay the fair deal many different ways. You don't have to sell the land to do it, if you can afford not to.


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    #84
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    I'm just curious (for the sake of discussion)
    beauf wrote: »
    Technically they can't remove the land from the fair deal valuation.

    If the sum total of the land was used for valuation but the brother subsequently claims that a portion of the land was his then wouldn't that portion of it be removed if he is successful with a claim on the land?
    beauf wrote: »
    But you can pay the fair deal many different ways. You don't have to sell the land to do it, if you can afford not to.

    Maybe the original intention was specifically to use the land only to pay for the fair deal after the person is deceased, I think the OP may have mentioned that was the case earlier.

    IF the land wont be used to pay for the fair deal then what money would be used to pay for it?... inheritance money (which the brother doesn't seem to be concerned with).


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    #85
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,764 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    God there's a lot of lads talking ****e here. The op said ages ago fair deal have been paid by the sale of some land. Would be helpful if people actually took the time to read other people's posts and stop treating what's a very difficult and stressful situation like an episode of murder she wrote.


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    #86
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    CoBo55 wrote: »
    God there's a lot of lads talking ****e here. The op said ages ago fair deal have been paid by the sale of some land. Would be helpful if people actually took the time to read other people's posts and stop treating what's a very difficult and stressful situation like an episode of murder she wrote.

    It will be murder she wrote if it drags on much longer ðŸ˜


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    #87
    EmilyBClare
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭EmilyBClare


    Treppen wrote: »
    Maybe he opted himself out of the will to write himself out of the debt owed on the Fair-Deal scheme !!! So with the rest of the other land paying it off, he now declares that the land that was the fathers... is his?

    Just conjecturing here, but it's a very odd thing -vexatiousness aside- to opt yourself out of a will, and then contest the will later.

    Is it a substantial amount owed to the Fair-Deal OP?, although, it sounds like your brother would frame someone out of a penny.

    Agreed, it is a very odd thing. I don’t know why this was asked from my Dad but he took my brother at his word and left him out. I think, from what other brothers have told me was because he was having a good day and decided my dad had done enough for him by giving him a business etc..and he didn’t want anything else!?

    I imagine my dad knew about the boundary moving over the years. I am surprised it was never addressed.

    Fair deal was in region of 45k without going in detail. Land was always going to be sold to pay this.


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    #88
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I think people are trying to work out what the point of contesting the will is. Its got nothing to do with the fair deal. I can't see any relevance anyway.

    He may simply just trying to frustrate the siblings for no reason other then he can.


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    #89
    CoBo55
    Registered Users Posts: 8,764 ✭✭✭CoBo55


    beauf wrote: »
    I think people are trying to work out what the point of contesting the will is. Its got nothing to do with the fair deal. I can't see any relevance anyway.

    He may simply just trying to frustrate the siblings for no reason other then he can.

    Op said it was on the grounds of capacity. The brother must think his father wasn't in his full mind at the time the will was written.


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    #90
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Is there any record of the brother requesting to be left out. Or was it just the father who said it?


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    #91
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    CoBo55 wrote: »
    Op said it was on the grounds of capacity. The brother must think his father wasn't in his full mind at the time the will was written.

    The father didn't leave him out. The son asked to be left out. So the father's mind is kinda irrelevant no?


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