Buying a second hand Leaf - a few questions

podge3

I'll be going to look at a 4 years old Leaf next week and have a few queries. I have been reading on here (I'm about 1/3 of the way through the HUGE charge point thread) and elsewhere so I have some idea of what to look for.

My main concern is obviously the battery. The cars is 4 years old, has about 40K on the clock and 12 bars so I assume its over 85%. What % should I be realistically be looking for with Leafspy?

Also, the car has been sitting idle for several months, will this affect the battery?

Am I right in saying that I can use the ESB ecars app for charging rather than requiring a card? I don't think I'll get the card in time before next week.

Anyone know where to buy a granny cable without paying ridiculous money? Cheapest I can see for a used one is about €200.

I've read hours of various online stuff about what to look for in a second hand Leaf but I welcome any and all suggestions. EVman's Youtube vid is very good.

Gumbo

podge3 wrote: »

I'll be going to look at a 4 years old Leaf next week and have a few queries. I have been reading on here (I'm about 1/3 of the way through the HUGE charge point thread) and elsewhere so I have some idea of what to look for.

My main concern is obviously the battery. The cars is 4 years old, has about 40K on the clock and 12 bars so I assume its over 85%. What % should I be realistically be looking for with Leafspy?

Also, the car has been sitting idle for several months, will this affect the battery?

Am I right in saying that I can use the ESB ecars app for charging rather than requiring a card? I don't think I'll get the card in time before next week.

Anyone know where to buy a granny cable without paying ridiculous money? Cheapest I can see for a used one is about €200.

I've read hours of various online stuff about what to look for in a second hand Leaf but I welcome any and all suggestions. EVman's Youtube vid is very good.

1. It’s on 12 bars now so the SOH % doesn’t really matter. Assume it’s about to loose a bar (it may not) bit of the current range suits then you won’t notice a blind bit of difference.

2. Ideally it should have been kept at 50-80% but it’s not a huge problem. The biggest problem is the 12v battery. It may require changing after sitting for a long period.

3. Yes, once you are registered. You may need a ref plate to register, I’m not sure so start checking that now. Will a public charge be required to get home?

4. The Granny Cables for all EV’s are over priced. They retain their value for some reason. I would say €200 is a good price as they go for more. Do you need it though? Probably for the first few weeks while waiting on home charging install?

JPA

Are you sure it doesn't have a granny cable?
Would be standard equipment.

AhHaor

SOH fluctuates over the year (temp related), what you see at the moment will likely be as high as it will get over the 12 months. My 151 when it was 3 years old went from 99% to 87% and back to 98% over course of 12 months.

KCross

JPA wrote: »

Are you sure it doesn't have a granny cable?
Would be standard equipment.

Not standard at all on the older Leaf's and of those that do have them lots of people take them out and sell them separately when selling the car on.

podge3

Thanks Gumbo.

1. Yeah, I'd assume it's about to lose a bar but I'm hoping the SOH might be a bit more than 85% Some owners report well into the 90s for the same age/mileage, obviously depends on several factors..

2. The car has a spoiler charger so that might have helped the 12v battery. Is there a window on the top to indicate it's state of health?

3. Don't see any requirement for a reg number, I'll have a closer look. Hopefully I won't need a charge anyway to get home.

4. I'll be getting a home charger as you say but I'd like to have a granny cable anyway. Are third party cables ok? I'd rather pay €200 for a new third party version on Amazon or somewhere.th

Gumbo wrote: »

1. It’s on 12 bars now so the SOH % doesn’t really matter. Assume it’s about to loose a bar (it may not) bit of the current range suits then you won’t notice a blind bit of difference.

2. Ideally it should have been kept at 50-80% but it’s not a huge problem. The biggest problem is the 12v battery. It may require changing after sitting for a long period.

3. Yes, once you are registered. You may need a ref plate to register, I’m not sure so start checking that now. Will a public charge be required to get home?

4. The Granny Cables for all EV’s are over priced. They retain their value for some reason. I would say €200 is a good price as they go for more. Do you need it though? Probably for the first few weeks while waiting on home charging install?

podge3

JPA wrote: »

Are you sure it doesn't have a granny cable?
Would be standard equipment.

No, just the CP one.

KCross

podge3 wrote: »

I'll be going to look at a 4 years old Leaf next week and have a few queries. I have been reading on here (I'm about 1/3 of the way through the HUGE charge point thread) and elsewhere so I have some idea of what to look for.

What year is the car and is it a 24 or 30kWh version?

Check rear tyre wear is even. If its a 2017 you are probably OK.

podge3 wrote: »

My main concern is obviously the battery. The cars is 4 years old, has about 40K on the clock and 12 bars so I assume its over 85%. What % should I be realistically be looking for with Leafspy?

As others said, the 12 bars is all you need to know really at this stage and assume its relatively close to losing a bar, which is normal at that age.

podge3 wrote: »

Also, the car has been sitting idle for several months, will this affect the battery?

Only if it has been sitting idle for months at 0% or 100%.

podge3

It's the 30Kwh version.

A few pics of the car show about 50% charge several months ago and almost full charge now with very little Kms done in the meantime

New (cheap��) tyres all round.

KCross wrote: »

What year is the car and is it a 24 or 30kWh version?

Check rear tyre wear is even. If its a 2017 you are probably OK.




As others said, the 12 bars is all you need to know really at this stage and assume its relatively close to losing a bar, which is normal at that age.




Only if it has been sitting idle for months at 0% or 100%.

macnab

podge3 wrote: »

It's the 30Kwh version.

A few pics of the car show about 50% charge several months ago and almost full charge now with very little Kms done in the meantime

New (cheap��) tyres all round.

How much is the car?
I have a 30kW Leaf for sale.
I had it advertised here last year but I priced it too high so no offers. I would let it go cheap now.

podge3

macnab wrote: »

How much is the car?
I have a 30kW Leaf for sale.
I had it advertised here last year but I priced it too high so no offers. I would let it go cheap now.

I have a trade in, I'm afraid.

scudodave

Front struts have no covers and tend to rust particularly on drivers side,plenty of videos on YouTube, lid of Cadburys drinking chocolate worked for me.

Screwfix do a granny cable for €171 delivered..

I have mine < 5 years,never missed a beat, annual service, and one set of tyres.
Great car if the limited range suits you.

podge3

scudodave wrote: »

Front struts have no covers and tend to rust particularly on drivers side,plenty of videos on YouTube, lid of Cadburys drinking chocolate worked for me.

Screwfix do a granny cable for €171 delivered..

I have mine < 5 years,never missed a beat, annual service, and one set of tyres.
Great car if the limited range suits you.

Thanks for that.

The cable on Screwfix looks interesting, seems to be much dearer elsewhere.

podge3

Looks like I'll be cancelling this particular purchase.

Despite what the dealer told me, the Leaf does NOT have 12 bars. I didn't really look at the pics of the dash until just now when I noticed it only has 11.

Oh well, the search starts again....

BTW, any issue with buying an imported Leaf from the UK? Does the battery warranty hold good?

TheBoyConor

I'd say for a 5 year old EV, the value of them will fall off a cliff. Once the battery degrades to 60%, the car is basically worthless as driving car and is only saleable for scrap. Some component parts might be able to be re-used, but most wouldn't have a market or even be capable of being reused so would be going into the crusher still in the car.

slave1

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say for a 5 year old EV, the value of them will fall off a cliff. Once the battery degrades to 60%, the car is basically worthless as driving car and is only saleable for scrap. Some component parts might be able to be re-used, but most wouldn't have a market or even be capable of being reused so would be going into the crusher still in the car.

Respectfully, what a load of crap, do you seriously think an EV’s battery will deteriorate to 60% after 5 years? are you an active EV owner? are you aware of the widespread 8 year battery warranties even if this highly unlikely event occurs?
I thought we were past these nonsense and badly misleading type posts

NIMAN

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say for a 5 year old EV, the value of them will fall off a cliff. Once the battery degrades to 60%, the car is basically worthless as driving car and is only saleable for scrap. Some component parts might be able to be re-used, but most wouldn't have a market or even be capable of being reused so would be going into the crusher still in the car.

My Leaf has just turned 7 years old, has 102000km and lost it's first bar of health around 99000, so it's just under 85%.

You sound like one of the anti EV brigade.

Calahonda52

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say for a 5 year old EV, the value of them will fall off a cliff. Once the battery degrades to 60%, the car is basically worthless as driving car and is only saleable for scrap. Some component parts might be able to be re-used, but most wouldn't have a market or even be capable of being reused so would be going into the crusher still in the car.

I thought Trump set the gold standard for lies, fake news and pure misinformation.
I was wrong:o

Gumbo

podge3 wrote: »

Looks like I'll be cancelling this particular purchase.

Despite what the dealer told me, the Leaf does NOT have 12 bars. I didn't really look at the pics of the dash until just now when I noticed it only has 11.

Oh well, the search starts again....

BTW, any issue with buying an imported Leaf from the UK? Does the battery warranty hold good?

I think your being harsh here.

Your going to struggle to get a 4/5 year old leaf with 12 bars and if it does, you’ll lose the bar within a few months of ownership.

The range doesn’t drastically change from 12 to 11 bars. It’s gradual. So if you buy a car with a perceived 12 bars today over a car with 11 bars, there may be not actual tea he difference.

Calahonda52

podge3 wrote: »

Looks like I'll be cancelling this particular purchase.

Despite what the dealer told me, the Leaf does NOT have 12 bars. I didn't really look at the pics of the dash until just now when I noticed it only has 11.

Oh well, the search starts again....

BTW, any issue with buying an imported Leaf from the UK? Does the battery warranty hold good?

Not the right answer, dont get fixated on 12 bars.
As others have said, it's touch and go between 11 and 12 at that age range.

what you haven't said is what the application is, if driving 166 km one way with no stops regularly, then 12 is better, but if its only a run around....

Much better to shop local IMO as you can see the car and have local service.

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Some component parts might be able to be re-used, but most wouldn't have a market or even be capable of being reused so would be going into the crusher still in the car.

I think this might be the stupidest thing I've seen on boards .

podge3

Thanks for the replies, lads.

You are, of course, quite right about the 11 or 12 bars. 11 could mean just out of 12 or about to go to 10. Similarly, a 12 bar car could drop to 11 on the way home from the garage.

Leafspy would tell all but the car is quite a distance from me. The garage is a reputable premises but not a main Nissan dealer and seems unwilling to get the car checked in a Nissan dealer.

11 bars in winter is also likely to be 10 bars in summer but I have read of wild fluctuations in SOH.

cgc5483

podge3 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, lads.

You are, of course, quite right about the 11 or 12 bars. 11 could mean just out of 12 or about to go to 10. Similarly, a 12 bar car could drop to 11 on the way home from the garage.

Leafspy would tell all but the car is quite a distance from me. The garage is a reputable premises but not a main Nissan dealer and seems unwilling to get the car checked in a Nissan dealer.

11 bars in winter is also likely to be 10 bars in summer but I have read of wild fluctuations in SOH.

That's it exactly. The bars are in one way a bit arbitrary and I think sometimes too much emphasis put on them. I have a 2015 Leaf that dropped from 12 to 11 bars and never noticed any difference in range. Your driving style can dictate alot of how much range you can get.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

My Leaf has just turned 7 years old, has 102000km and lost it's first bar of health around 99000, so it's just under 85%.

You sound like one of the anti EV brigade.

Haha, I'm almost at 104,000 Kms on the i3 and it's only 3 months from being 4 years old !

Battery is doing exceptionally well too, very happy about that.

TXPTGR1

May be in the market for an ev in the near future myself preferably second hand
Do any of the manufacturers enable battery to be replaced after a few years, surely that’s the way to go? Or are they at the planned obsolescence craic

Gumbo

TXPTGR1 wrote: »

May be in the market for an ev in the near future myself preferably second hand
Do any of the manufacturers enable battery to be replaced after a few years, surely that’s the way to go? Or are they at the planned obsolescence craic

No reason to replace the battery.

TXPTGR1

Gumbo wrote: »

No reason to replace the battery.

I mean after a few years- surely capacity is lost?

Gumbo

TXPTGR1 wrote: »

I mean after a few years- surely capacity is lost?

After how many years?
After 10 years the capacity may be at 70-80% of original. Especially the newer stuff. The biggest capacity loss was the original Leaf. Batteries are much better after that.

TheBoyConor

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I thought Trump set the gold standard for lies, fake news and pure misinformation.
I was wrong:o

It isn't. The value of used EVs can be very precarious. It is a rapidly evolving technology. Lets say a current EV has a real world range of 500km. Fair enough if it can hold on to 90% of it's capacity for 4 years (which i would not have much faith in tbh) then there is a significant technology leap and the average EV has a battery which can do 900km real world. I could see the value of a 4 year old EV with now perhaps 400km real world range plummeting into bangernomics territory. Who is going to want a 4 year old car that can barely do half the range of a newer one?

I also have huge concerns re second hand EVs in the sense that they are highly network and data dependent. In 10 years time a manufacturer could decide to end support of older vehicles, with no further software support or upgrade of bugs. A car that might be sound in terms of hardware, mechanics and battery chemistry, could be bricked and rendered written off because of the occurrence of a bug for which the manufacturer is no longer offering a fix.

I believe there is huge uncertainty there, and I think the accumulated savings for a motorist on fuel costs from EVs could be wiped out instantly if there is an unresolvable fault or problem that writes off the car.

I have done the sums on getting an EV. For me, it just does not stack up I'm afraid. For me driving a bangernomics car is still very significantly cheaper than an EV as the outlay cost is probably 10-15 times what I would ever be prepared to pay for a car, which would take an awful lot of electricity units in lieu of fuel to recoup.

slave1

I have a 2015 and 2016 EV, the 2015 is at 93% and the 2016 is at 92% SOH.
Do you not realise how much computer control is embedded in all vehicles these days?
Your post is inventing an issue that does not exist.
If EVs not for you then fine but your post demonstrates an EV mindset akin to electric milk vans and is highly misinformed

Laviski

Also don't know what sums you were using.... But for me I had a banger but tax, insurance costs and maintenance was just idiotic. Since getting ev those dropped considerably and fuel costs savings is just another plus.

I did get a new car and there is a premium for that, but the comfort and safety features that comes with that for my family is worth it. If and when this car loses 50/60% SOH there will options out there, there already is for gen1 leafs. that would be in 8/10 years (if I dc charge regularly perhaps) not 4/5 as you say. The direction you would take would just depend on your personal circumstances to make best use of what you have.
Plenty of correct info out there when you are correctly informed.

slave1

In 4 years of owning our Leaf30 I’ve fitted two air filters, two tyres, set of front wipers and annual services at €77-€79 a pop from main Nissan dealer.
That’s it at 4 years, these things are bulletproof.

Calahonda52

slave1 wrote: »

In 4 years of owning our Leaf30 I’ve fitted two air filters, two tyres, set of front wipers and annual services at €77-€79 a pop from main Nissan dealer.
That’s it at 4 years, these things are bulletproof.

.
where did you source the wipers?

Mine is 4 years next month, 56k, washed it a few times and got serviced annually.
Need 3 wipers now, tyres perfect

slave1

Amazon Warehouse last year

liamog

Laviski wrote: »

Also don't know what sums you were using.... But for me I had a banger but tax, insurance costs and maintenance was just idiotic. Since getting ev those dropped considerably and fuel costs savings is just another plus.

Before our Ioniq we had a ten year old Grande Punto, insurance costs went down when we switched to a newer car by about €100. The real saving was in fuel, we switched €200/month of petrol to €20/month of electricity. Maybe the Punto was particularly bad, but we were paying around €1,500 a year fixing things on the car. By my reckoning we were saving the equivalent of 6 months of PCP payments when we switched. Now that we've finished the PCP and kept the car, it's all gravy!

podge3

Does the 3.3kw or 6.6kw onboard charger make much difference in the value of the car?

As I'm buying secondhand, I'm finding I'd difficult to get the exact spec, colour etc I would like. Some of the cars I'm looking at have the 3.3kw charger, which I initially discounted due to concerns about trade in value.

I'm not overly concerned about the physics of 3.3 Vs 6.6 but will it affect the trade-in value in, say, a few years time on a 6/7 year old Leaf?

KCross

podge3 wrote: »

Does the 3.3kw or 6.6kw onboard charger make much difference in the value of the car?

As I'm buying secondhand, I'm finding I'd difficult to get the exact spec, colour etc I would like. Some of the cars I'm looking at have the 3.3kw charger, which I initially discounted due to concerns about trade in value.

I'm not overly concerned about the physics of 3.3 Vs 6.6 but will it affect the trade-in value in, say, a few years time on a 6/7 year old Leaf?

Not really. As you are finding, the market is relatively small and will be even smaller when you go to sell it on again. Most Gen 1 Leaf's didnt have 6.6kW chargers so having the 3.3kW wont be a big black mark against it.... getting, say, the XE version would be a bigger issue as it didnt have a heat pump or sat nav or app connectivity.

The main reason to get the 6.6kW charger is if you regularly go beyond the range of the car and need to topup during the day. If you wont be doing that then the 3.3kW will do you fine.

Gumbo

podge3 wrote: »

Does the 3.3kw or 6.6kw onboard charger make much difference in the value of the car?

As I'm buying secondhand, I'm finding I'd difficult to get the exact spec, colour etc I would like. Some of the cars I'm looking at have the 3.3kw charger, which I initially discounted due to concerns about trade in value.

I'm not overly concerned about the physics of 3.3 Vs 6.6 but will it affect the trade-in value in, say, a few years time on a 6/7 year old Leaf?

I’d rather a SVE/Tekna with 3.3 OBC than the lower spec version with 6.6 OBC.
If you do most of your charging at home then it will mostly be over night and you won’t notice.

Of course it’s nice to have but I wouldn’t turn down a good car because of it.

Nedved85

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It isn't. The value of used EVs can be very precarious. It is a rapidly evolving technology. Lets say a current EV has a real world range of 500km. Fair enough if it can hold on to 90% of it's capacity for 4 years (which i would not have much faith in tbh) then there is a significant technology leap and the average EV has a battery which can do 900km real world. I could see the value of a 4 year old EV with now perhaps 400km real world range plummeting into bangernomics territory. Who is going to want a 4 year old car that can barely do half the range of a newer one?

I also have huge concerns re second hand EVs in the sense that they are highly network and data dependent. In 10 years time a manufacturer could decide to end support of older vehicles, with no further software support or upgrade of bugs. A car that might be sound in terms of hardware, mechanics and battery chemistry, could be bricked and rendered written off because of the occurrence of a bug for which the manufacturer is no longer offering a fix.

I believe there is huge uncertainty there, and I think the accumulated savings for a motorist on fuel costs from EVs could be wiped out instantly if there is an unresolvable fault or problem that writes off the car.

I have done the sums on getting an EV. For me, it just does not stack up I'm afraid. For me driving a bangernomics car is still very significantly cheaper than an EV as the outlay cost is probably 10-15 times what I would ever be prepared to pay for a car, which would take an awful lot of electricity units in lieu of fuel to recoup.

I imported a second hand EV from the UK a few years ago - drove it for two years and sold it for more than I paid for it.

It's a lot easier to sell a second hand EV than a second hand ICE. I previously tried to sell an ICE car privately, priced it keenly but I did not get a single phone call. Interest in EV's is very high and will continue to grow.

podge3

Thanks for the feedback, lads. I agree with what you say.

Gumbo wrote: »

I’d rather a SVE/Tekna with 3.3 OBC than the lower spec version with 6.6 OBC.

This is exactly the choice I have, same year, different spec, lower spec model with 6.6kw OBC. Sameish price on both, I'm veering towards the Tekna with the 3.3kw charger

slave1

podge3 wrote: »

Does the 3.3kw or 6.6kw onboard charger make much difference in the value of the car?

As I'm buying secondhand, I'm finding I'd difficult to get the exact spec, colour etc I would like. Some of the cars I'm looking at have the 3.3kw charger, which I initially discounted due to concerns about trade in value.

I'm not overly concerned about the physics of 3.3 Vs 6.6 but will it affect the trade-in value in, say, a few years time on a 6/7 year old Leaf?

In a word, no.
The Leaf 24/30 came with 3.3 OBC as standard.
A lot of Leaf's in Ireland were imported from the UK where the cost of the 6.6kW charger was a whopping circa £1,100 so not many people went for it.
Rightly so as it has no impact when charging overnight and when out and about your going to be accessing a CHAdeMO charger in any case as even at 6.6kW you'd be waiting hours upon hours for a decent range gain

Nermal

What is the curve on battery degradation like - is it a straight line per kilometre, or does it slow down once it gets to 80% territory?

I realise it might be dependent on more factors than distance - just interested to know if there’s a ‘floor’ somewhere.

randombar

podge3 wrote: »

Looks like I'll be cancelling this particular purchase.

Despite what the dealer told me, the Leaf does NOT have 12 bars. I didn't really look at the pics of the dash until just now when I noticed it only has 11.

Oh well, the search starts again....

BTW, any issue with buying an imported Leaf from the UK? Does the battery warranty hold good?

Have a 161 with 12 bars for sale if you were in Cork and interested.

oinkely

couple of notes on the 6.6 vs 3.3 query. I've had leafs with both. Specifically sourced the most recent two with 6.6 as there was still free public charging at the time so figured it was worth it. Don't regret it. If i was looking for a replacement for our current 24kw tekna with 6.6 charger i would take a tekna 3.3 over an accenta 6.6. The Tekna heated seats and steering wheel are more useful now than the 6.6 charger (for me anyway). With the demise of free public charging I now charge almost exclusively at home or in work so 3.3 would be fine. If the work chargers were to get busier, which they will, then maybe the 6.6 would be better to charge up quicker and move the car so another ev can get a charge.

6.6 is also handy for days when you do a trip that uses a good bit of range, are home then for a while to top up before doing another trip that will also use a good bit of range. For us it helps a lot with visiting both sets of parents (60 km round trip to one, and then 60 to the others in the opposite direction). All motorway so with an hour at home in between there is no need to stick to leaf speed to make both trips in one day. (pre covid restrictions of course!). This wasn't an issue when we had two leafs, just took a different one for each trip. Now that the second ev is a c zero and one seat short for the whole family we are occasionally happy with the 6.6 charger.

podge3

Thanks again for all the feedback, folks.

I'm glad to see the general consensus is the same as my thoughts on the matter i.e. higher spec is better than the 3.3kw OBC.

I started out the search looking for a poverty spec XE/Visa but quickly changed my mind. I'm now looking at only SVE/Tekna. Makes the search even narrower, obviously.

podge3

GaryCocs wrote: »

Have a 161 with 12 bars for sale if you were in Cork and interested.

Right spec, wrong battery size, unfortunately.

randombar

podge3 wrote: »

Thanks again for all the feedback, folks.

I'm glad to see the general consensus is the same as my thoughts on the matter i.e. higher spec is better than the 3.3kw OBC.

I started out the search looking for a poverty spec XE/Visa but quickly changed my mind. I'm now looking at only SVE/Tekna. Makes the search even narrower, obviously.

The only problem with going Tekna is you'll never get a lower spec after that.

The bose sound system is the only part of the Tekna I'm not too pushed about.

slave1

I would not get too bothered about the Tekna spec, leather seats are colder to sit in and the "ordinary" Leaf seats are excellent, very comfortable.
I demo'd the Bose sound system and it's nothing to write home about.
Then we have the heated seats which are handy, I've had them on all our last cars except the Leaf, solution is £20 to Amazon for a heated car seat cover which is better than the stock heated seat
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WKKWMHW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

loopymum

slave1 wrote: »

I would not get too bothered about the Tekna spec, leather seats are colder to sit in and the "ordinary" Leaf seats are excellent, very comfortable.
I demo'd the Bose sound system and it's nothing to write home about.
Then we have the heated seats which are handy, I've had them on all our last cars except the Leaf, solution is £20 to Amazon for a heated car seat cover which is better than the stock heated seat
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WKKWMHW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I agree with this. The seats in the SV are quiev plush. I had dual heated seats from amazon and they were very handy.
I'll be selling my leaf too. 24kw

randombar

For me it's being able to clean the seats etc front and back (little messy children)

Heating steering wheel is nice.

Heated seats yup.

Dont need bose when I'm listening to newstalk.

But having a Tekna for 2 years, when I was going again I couldn't downgrade.

liamog

The danger of buying a car that's nice to be inside, it's hard to drop down to another model. I dare we'd of been happy with a Kona, but the Ioniq spoiled it for us.