Let's take a moment to talk about taxation

theguzman

I am not a believer in Ireland being a low tax economy and I think we are punitively taxed here, considering what we receive from the Government in return it very bad value in my own honest opinion. Lets discuss it here. I am adding in all the taxes from the top of my head immediately.

Income Tax of 20 or 40% depending on income or circumstances
Universal Service Charge of 0.5% to 11% typically around 4.5%
PRSI 4% but can vary
VAT 0% to 9% to 23% (21% currently but raising back to the 23% rate soon)
Road Tolls, varies from €0 for some rural dwellers to €1,000+ per year for a daily commuter passing a tollgate.
Excise Duty of 50%+ on Hydrocarbon fuels, alcohol, and tobacco
Carbon tax €33.50 per tonne of fossil fuel or 9c per litre of fuel.
VRT, Vechicle Registration Tax on new and used cars
MotorTax €100 to €2,500 per year (average of €250 per modern car or less).
CGT Inheritance Tax 33% of what you will inherit, this was money previously taxed. This is one of the biggest for some and for others does not effect them.
Local Property Tax €90 to €1,000+ per year
Stamp Duty 1% for first time buyers for homes under €1m and 2% for above €2m 7.5% for Commercial property and farmland
D.I.R.T 33% this was once a serious tax, however since bank's don't any interest now it is nearly gone now. Probably costs more to collect than it raises now.
Plastic Bag Levy, 22c per plastic bag, one of the few taxes I support
Covid Test €100 to leave the country, as it is a govt mandated directive it is a from of tax as far as I'm concerned.
Dog Licence €20 for your madra
Gun licence €80 for 3 years, there is over 300k+ people holding guns in Ireland, many with multiple weapons.
Driving Licence €55 per decade
Passport €90+ per decade
NCT €55per 1 or 2 years depending on car age, typically €85 per year for a 10+ year car needing a retest.
Water Charges exceed 145L of water per day per person for a family of 4 and you will get charged. Small minority of people effected usually. Contentious issue.
Parking Charges varies, depends on usage
TV Licence: €160 per year to fund RTE
Electricity majority of your electric bill consists of taxations from PSO Levies and Carbon taxes

We are far from a low tax economy and I would love to do a simulation of a typical person, from cradle to grave he will pay somewhere above 70% of all monies he will earn back to the state in all the varies taxes.

What tax am I missing?

boldrevolt

Condoms are a tax on sex.
Sugar tax.

and most people don't know that due to the nature of how a text message is sent
it actually costs mobile operators nothing to let you do this.
so one could also argue charging for text messages are a scam

oh and you left out all the money people offer up to the catholic church.

wiggle16

theguzman wrote: »

Covid Test
Dog Licence
Gun licence
Driving Licence
Passport
NCT
Parking Charges
TV Licence:
Electricity

None of the above are taxes.

Unless you know what the effective rate of tax is in other developed countries then you have no basis for claiming that Ireland is or is not a "low tax economy", whatever you think that means.

wiggle16

And PRSI is not a tax either.

landofthetree

No party in Dail wanted to cut any of these taxes if you read their manifestos for the last election.

We get what we vote for.

jimmycrackcorm

boldrevolt wrote: »

Condoms are a tax on sex.
Sugar tax.

and most people don't know that due to the nature of how a text message is sent
it actually costs mobile operators nothing to let you do this.
so one could also argue charging for text messages are a scam

oh and you left out all the money people offer up to the catholic church.

I don't know anyone paying for text messages. I pay for unlimited data on my phone. Ordinary calls and text messages are a bonus.

boldrevolt

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't know anyone paying for text messages. I pay for unlimited data on my phone. Ordinary calls and text messages are a bonus.

The texts cost them nothing.

My name is URL

Guess it was only a matter of time before a taxation thread appeared here. Every other libertarian talking point has been done to death already

Its awful hard to take any attempt at analysis seriously that states income tax as either the 20 or 40 % rates without an acknowledgement that neither rate kicks in until a certain threshold which is significantly above zero

Id start by rectifyin that if you want a serious discussion

wally1990

theguzman wrote: »

I am not a believer in Ireland being a low tax economy and I think we are punitively taxed here, considering what we receive from the Government in return it very bad value in my own honest opinion. Lets discuss it here. I am adding in all the taxes from the top of my head immediately.

Income Tax of 20 or 40% depending on income or circumstances
Universal Service Charge of 0.5% to 11% typically around 4.5%
PRSI 4% but can vary
VAT 0% to 9% to 23% (21% currently but raising back to the 23% rate soon)
Road Tolls, varies from €0 for some rural dwellers to €1,000+ per year for a daily commuter passing a tollgate.
Excise Duty of 50%+ on Hydrocarbon fuels, alcohol, and tobacco
Carbon tax €33.50 per tonne of fossil fuel or 9c per litre of fuel.
VRT, Vechicle Registration Tax on new and used cars
MotorTax €100 to €2,500 per year (average of €250 per modern car or less).
CGT Inheritance Tax 33% of what you will inherit, this was money previously taxed. This is one of the biggest for some and for others does not effect them.
Local Property Tax €90 to €1,000+ per year
Stamp Duty 1% for first time buyers for homes under €1m and 2% for above €2m 7.5% for Commercial property and farmland
D.I.R.T 33% this was once a serious tax, however since bank's don't any interest now it is nearly gone now. Probably costs more to collect than it raises now.
Plastic Bag Levy, 22c per plastic bag, one of the few taxes I support
Covid Test €100 to leave the country, as it is a govt mandated directive it is a from of tax as far as I'm concerned.
Dog Licence €20 for your madra
Gun licence €80 for 3 years, there is over 300k+ people holding guns in Ireland, many with multiple weapons.
Driving Licence €55 per decade
Passport €90+ per decade
NCT €55per 1 or 2 years depending on car age, typically €85 per year for a 10+ year car needing a retest.
Water Charges exceed 145L of water per day per person for a family of 4 and you will get charged. Small minority of people effected usually. Contentious issue.
Parking Charges varies, depends on usage
TV Licence: €160 per year to fund RTE
Electricity majority of your electric bill consists of taxations from PSO Levies and Carbon taxes

We are far from a low tax economy and I would love to do a simulation of a typical person, from cradle to grave he will pay somewhere above 70% of all monies he will earn back to the state in all the varies taxes.

What tax am I missing?

For levies and some taxes /deductions

Health insurance levy
Life assurance
Prescriptions
There is levy on bank charges and cards
Stamp duty
Excuse duties on alcohol , fuel, cigarettes
Custom duties on imports
Carbon tax
Sugar tax I think came in here
And there is a Exit tax for companies leaving Ireland
There is employer prsi too

wiggle16

Deleted User wrote: »

Its awful hard to take any attempt at analysis seriously that states income tax as either the 20 or 40 % rates without an acknowledgement that neither rate kicks in until a certain threshold which is significantly above zero

Id start by rectifyin that if you want a serious discussion

Or all the credits which can be set against it.

But I don't think I'd bother, as he doesn't seem to understand the difference between a tax and a charge in the first place (or that CGT is not CAT) but has decided he pays too much all the same.

theguzman

wiggle16 wrote: »

Or all the credits which can be set against it.

But I don't think I'd bother, as he doesn't seem to understand the difference between a tax and a charge in the first place (or that CGT is not CAT) but has decided he pays too much all the same.

I full understand the difference between both, however a charge which is proactically unavoidable is still money I'm pumping into the exchequer. A gun and dog licence obviously, a TV licence maybe, electricity charges and bank levies less so however unless you become a hermit living in a teepee.

Get Real

I can't comment on non-income taxes as things like TV licence, house tax etc don't directly compare to other countries. But I'm sure they have their own ways of indirect taxation too. (Council tax in UK for example)

I've never agreed with the idea that we're being done somehow on tax in this country. Granted, there are disincentives to some things, such as DIRT on investments etc.

But on income tax, people don't actually pay much, we just think we do.

On a 35k salary, we come away with 29k after tax. Source, https://www.pwc.ie/issues/budget-2021/income-tax-calculator.html

On a 35k salary in France, its 27.5k
On a 35k salary in Belgium, its 22k!
On a 35k salary in Germany, its c24k, depending on church tax, deducted from income
On a 35k salary in Spain its 26.5k
On a 35k salary in Italy its 23.5k!
On a 35k salary in UK its 27k.

Source: https://salaryaftertax.com/ (Ireland also available on here, which gives same result as PWC one)

We beat all those countries for the after tax amount of income. That's after usc, paye, prsi etc, coming out with 29k on a 35k salary. More disbosable than any of the countries above.

SpacialNeeds

My name is URL wrote: »

Guess it was only a matter of time before a taxation thread appeared here. Every other libertarian talking point has been done to death already

Hi my name is URL and I really like taxation.

Don't forget

the various punitive financial measures against anyone who returns from emigrating

tax on hygiene products

The lotto, stupid person tax of the century. Should be banned.

wiggle16

theguzman wrote: »

I full understand the difference between both, however a charge which is proactically unavoidable is still money I'm pumping into the exchequer. A gun and dog licence obviously, a TV licence maybe, electricity charges and bank levies less so however unless you become a hermit living in a teepee.

I know from a number of your posts on Boards that you are certainly not pumping money into the exchequer and would rather the situation were reversed, so I have to say this thread has rubbed me up the wrong way.

Many of the things you have described are discretionary - owning a gun, a dog, a car, a television (for now) - these are choices. As such there are incidental charges to fund the State's administration of these things as they require regulation. You don't need a passport, you can't be forced to leave Ireland if you decide not to.

You are also ignoring a huge component of reasoning behind taxation by mentioning some of the taxes in your OP. Governments use, and must use, taxes to enforce social policy. A carbon tax is there to make environmentally unsound consumption unattractive - the same goes for the sugar tax in relation to obesity. Capital taxation is required for the necessary redistribution of wealth.

Again, without knowing how to compare the effective rates in other countries (and you haven't shown that you do), you can't evaluate whether or not you pay too much tax.

riclad

Taxs pay for roads. Bridges infrastructure, the civil service, hospitals, Gardai etc if you don't like it maybe move to another country like the USA
Some states have low taxs, but you better
have good health insurance health insurance is expensive property taxs are
higher than 1000 euro in most states
1000s of people go bankrupt if they need
expensive medical treatment due to a sudden illness I think the Irish system is more fair than the American system
So drugs in America have gone up 10x in one year because company x owns the patent on that drug
The healthcare system in America is in some way a tax because you have to
pay for expensive health insurance
I think in general the tax rates in Ireland are in line with most western countrys

The J Stands for Jay

SpacialNeeds wrote: »

the various punitive financial measures against anyone who returns from emigrating.

Please elaborate

Wanderer78

Yup, it's common in so called free market economies that taxation moves from the more plutocratic elements in society, towards the citizens, from income taxes to consumption taxes, so the trick is to be wealthy before the implementation of such policies

Mad_maxx

landofthetree wrote: »

No party in Dail wanted to cut any of these taxes if you read their manifestos for the last election.

We get what we vote for.

Indeed ,even the " right wing " FG

Mad_maxx

riclad wrote: »

Taxs pay for roads. Bridges infrastructure, the civil service, hospitals, Gardai etc if you don't like it maybe move to another country like the USA
Some states have low taxs, but you better
have good health insurance health insurance is expensive property taxs are
higher than 1000 euro in most states
1000s of people go bankrupt if they need
expensive medical treatment due to a sudden illness I think the Irish system is more fair than the American system
So drugs in America have gone up 10x in one year because company x owns the patent on that drug
The healthcare system in America is in some way a tax because you have to
pay for expensive health insurance
I think in general the tax rates in Ireland are in line with most western countrys

They're not in line , we are an outlier in that we hardly tax low earners at all and load heavy on mid level earners

Kivaro

Was the television/RTE tax mentioned yet?
Or the soon to be media 'charge' (tax), which is just another household tax, for having a smart device capable of receiving RTE?

sameoldname

Can the OP give us a country that has the taxation and spending policies he'd like us to emulate? That way we can actually have a proper discussion without having to deal with abstract numbers divorced from their effects.

Mad_maxx

sameoldname wrote: »

Can the OP give us a country that has the taxation and spending policies he'd like us to emulate? That way we can actually have a proper discussion without having to deal with abstract numbers divorced from their effects.

dunno about the OP but personally id like a flat tax for everyone including corporations

around 20% would be about right IMO

Beasty

It's only going to get worse in the short and medium term. We've a pandemic to pay for (although I suspect it may be our children and grandchildren that ultimately pay for most of that).

We also have a relatively young population. That will change over time resulting in increasing pension costs.

Wanderer78

Beasty wrote: »

It's only going to get worse in the short and medium term. We've a pandemic to pay for (although I suspect it may be our children and grandchildren that ultimately pay for most of that).

We also have a relatively young population. That will change over time resulting in increasing pension costs.

...again growing deficits are relatively fine, public debt can be rolled over indefinitely, without it causing any significant issues, this is common across the globe, as long as the debts are serviceable, everything is fine.

the issue with pensions is the fact, living costs are continually rising, particularly in relation to property and land, therefore preventing younger generations from getting involved with pension funds earlier

Idbatterim

landofthetree wrote: »

No party in Dail wanted to cut any of these taxes if you read their manifestos for the last election.

We get what we vote for.

yes but there is no alternative running, other than renua who the electorate seem to have dismissed...

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again growing deficits are relatively fine, public debt can be rolled over indefinitely, without it causing any significant issues, this is common across the globe, as long as the debts are serviceable, everything is fine.

the issue with pensions is the fact, living costs are continually rising, particularly in relation to property and land, therefore preventing younger generations from getting involved with pension funds earlier

the state pension and added benefits are also far too generous , add in the fact many are on the state pension nearly as long as they were working

Quantum Erasure

Thumb tax

IAMAMORON

The pension bubble is coming ... it is going to be nasty.

sameoldname

Mad_maxx wrote: »

dunno about the OP but personally id like a flat tax for everyone including corporations

around 20% would be about right IMO

There are a good few countries around the world with a flat tax rate, can you suggest one we could copy?

Jim2007

theguzman wrote: »

I am not a believer in Ireland being a low tax economy and I think we are punitively taxed here, considering what we receive from the Government in return it very bad value in my own honest opinion.

If you wanted a serious conversation about taxation then it would have to be rooted in facts, which based on your posts would be problematic for you.


Have you considered the conspiracy forum?

Muahahaha

Id be more concerned about how our taxes are spent than the actual level of taxation itself, there is a lot of waste in the system.

Wanderer78

Muahahaha wrote: »

Id be more concerned about how our taxes are spent than the actual level of taxation itself, there is a lot of waste in the system.

absolutely, we need to start tackling the waste within the fire(finance, insurance and real estate) sectors, i.e. the rent seekers!

Eric Cartman

Iteland is ahigh perso al tax economy, this country loves screwing over SME’s and high earners to prop up an ever expanding welfare class.

Ireland needs to half rates of personal taxation and make the savings in the welfare and associated services budget.

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Iteland is ahigh perso al tax economy, this country loves screwing over SME’s and high earners to prop up an ever expanding welfare class.

Ireland needs to half rates of personal taxation and make the savings in the welfare and associated services budget.

the welfare classes, the ones that own the majority of assets, whereby the majority amount of taxes are placed!

Eric Cartman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the welfare classes, the ones that own the majority of assets, whereby the majority amount of taxes are placed!

“BuT ThEy PaY VaT oN CaNs AnD SmOkEs”

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote: »

“BuT ThEy PaY VaT oN CaNs AnD SmOkEs”

they do indeed, while the rent seekers pay virtually nothing

Eric Cartman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

they do indeed, while the rent seekers pay virtually nothing

Rent seekers ? If you mean landlords they are probably the most highly taxed business owners jn all of Ireland

Donald Trump

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Rent seekers ? If you mean landlords they are probably the most highly taxed business owners jn all of Ireland

Rent seeker is an economics term.


I presume that is what the poster refers to

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Rent seekers ? If you mean landlords they are probably the most highly taxed business owners jn all of Ireland

no i dont necessarily mean landlords

definition:

Rent seeking is an economic concept occurring when an entity seeks to gain wealth without reciprocal contribution of productivity.
The term rent in rent seeking is based on an economic rent which was defined by economist Adam Smith to mean payments made in excess of resource costs.
An example of rent seeking is when a company lobbies the government for grants, subsidies, or tariff protection.

sameoldname

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Iteland is ahigh perso al tax economy, this country loves screwing over SME’s and high earners to prop up an ever expanding welfare class.

Ireland needs to half rates of personal taxation and make the savings in the welfare and associated services budget.

Well if it's just about proposing meaningless sh!t then how about we:

Increase taxes on crypto currency profits to 100%
€100,000 flat tax on all SUV's for everyone except farmers and trade workers.
10 fold property tax increase on holiday homes.
Give me €250,000 a year because I deserve it.

See? It's a mixture of penalising things I dislike and also benefitting myself. Aren't I clever and constructive!

timmyntc

Get Real wrote: »

I can't comment on non-income taxes as things like TV licence, house tax etc don't directly compare to other countries. But I'm sure they have their own ways of indirect taxation too. (Council tax in UK for example)

I've never agreed with the idea that we're being done somehow on tax in this country. Granted, there are disincentives to some things, such as DIRT on investments etc.

But on income tax, people don't actually pay much, we just think we do.

On a 35k salary, we come away with 29k after tax. Source, https://www.pwc.ie/issues/budget-2021/income-tax-calculator.html

On a 35k salary in France, its 27.5k
On a 35k salary in Belgium, its 22k!
On a 35k salary in Germany, its c24k, depending on church tax, deducted from income
On a 35k salary in Spain its 26.5k
On a 35k salary in Italy its 23.5k!
On a 35k salary in UK its 27k.

Source: https://salaryaftertax.com/ (Ireland also available on here, which gives same result as PWC one)

We beat all those countries for the after tax amount of income. That's after usc, paye, prsi etc, coming out with 29k on a 35k salary. More disbosable than any of the countries above.

Why a 35k salary?

On higher salaries you will start to see the big differences in Irish and other countries' taxation.

We have one of the lowest thresholds before the top rate of tax kicks in, and one of the highest marginal rates of tax in Europe

Mad_maxx

sameoldname wrote: »

There are a good few countries around the world with a flat tax rate, can you suggest one we could copy?

most are not the kind of place id want to emulate but its not really down to the tax code

PhilOssophy

“Daddy, what do taxes pay for?” – Todd Flanders
“Oh, why everything! Policemen, trees, sunshine, and let’s not forget the folks who just don’t feel like working, God bless ’em.” – Ned Flanders

Mad_maxx

Donald Trump wrote: »

Rent seeker is an economics term.


I presume that is what the poster refers to

" rent seeker " is a term so loaded with ideology , the tyres are flat as a pancake

PhilOssophy

I have no problem with paying taxes. My problem is what we get for that tax. We (middle income workers) get screwed for everything, we have a health service which the only answer has been "more money needed", rather than a root-and-branch review of where the money is going.
Throughout our public sector, there's umpteen examples of money being wasted in both unneeded people and a fortune being spent on consultants for almost everything of value. And then there is the money waste and poor planning on some public infrastructure projects.
And all this, while in Silicon Docks they make a mockery of our Corporation Tax laws and give us the run around. And the Government support this? There is no way in this world Google and Facebook will pack their bags if we add a few extra percent to the Corp. Tax bills, and maybe we should call their bluff and see what happens.

sameoldname

Mad_maxx wrote: »

most are not the kind of place id want to emulate but its not really down to the tax code

Of course not.

bonjurkes

Deemed disposable tax - 41% (you have to pay for gains from some of your investments every 8 years) - Which is a massive taxation and there is no similar example of this in other EU countries.

And as a fully responsible tax payer, here is where your money goes: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/ (hint: social protection is #1)

And as a bonus:

Mike Murdock

bonjurkes wrote: »

Deemed disposable tax - 41% (you have to pay for gains from some of your investments every 8 years) - Which is a massive taxation and there is no similar example of this in other EU countries.

And as a fully responsible tax payer, here is where your money goes: https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/ (hint: social protection is #1)

1/3rd is on Pensions in fairness.

The €22 billion on healthcare boggles the mind. With that level of funding for a population of 4.5 million, we should have a world class health service.

sameoldname

Mike Murdock wrote: »

1/3rd is on Pensions in fairness.

The €22 billion on healthcare boggles the mind. With that level of funding for a population of 4.5 million, we should have a world class health service.

To be fair, nearly €4 billion of that is an increase due to Covid 19. Though in general I agree.

bonjurkes

Mike Murdock wrote: »

The €22 billion on healthcare boggles the mind. With that level of funding for a population of 4.5 million, we should have a world class health service.

We do have it. You just have to wait 1 year for your appointment date


Ireland is 16th at health quality in Europe, there was more comprehensive chart that says Ireland is the 2nd worst health service based on waiting times (UK was 1st)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Europe

It's my bad actually in 2018, Ireland was the worst country due to waiting times : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_Health_Consumer_Index