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2020 officially saw a record number of $1 billion weather and climate disasters.

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Comments

  • #2


    All the data presented here is from the US NOAA.


    This guy is who you reference, come on
    “Longtime Climate Denier Tony Heller Gets YouTube Ban For COVID Denial”

    Who is Tony Hellar?, he is not a climate scientist thats for certain,
    https://tonyhellerakastevengoddard.com/who-is-tony-heller/

    Other articles, and a YouTube clip
    https://www.desmog.com/steven-goddard/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ClimateOffensive/comments/cm9l2q/tony_heller_and_data_adjustments/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjPkclkZh6o

    And if thats not enough for you this guy Tony Hellar real name Steven Goddard claims that NASA is manipulating the data and he thanks to the Australian senator Malcom Roberts for his efforts in exposing the fraud. Well lets just listen to Malcolm Roberts debate the physicist Brian Cox on the issue,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxEGHW6Lbu8[/URL]

    I've heard a lot about this guy over the last couple of years, and the fact that he seems to get a lot of negative reaction like this (for whatever reason) means he must be worth checking out as clearly, he must be onto something...


  • #2


    Doubling down on the spoof and fake news, classic move there Pa ElGrande! You have a serious vendetta against this Potsdam institute place, did they swipe your picnic basket ? :rolleyes:

    You are unable to dispute the information presented by Mr. Heller and resort to ad-hominen attacks.

    The Potsdam Institute for Climate (PIK) is noteworthy for the individuals associated with it such as Stefan Rahmstorf, Ottmar Edenhofer and others who claim to speak as scientists for the science of climate science, their language and their agenda is clearly one of failed activism.

    You will find the influence of PIK in Irish academia, Irish media and Irish government quangos.

    PIK is a climate activism organisation and that makes it impossible for it to be a scientific organisation. The close association of Potsdam climate scientists with UN climate activists underscores this opinion. It is not possible to carry out unbiased scientific inquiry when the researchers have an activism agenda in terms of the research question.


  • #2


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »

    I've heard a lot about this guy over the last couple of years, and the fact that he seems to get a lot of negative reaction like this (for whatever reason) means he must be worth checking out as clearly, he must be onto something...

    For anyone interested here is his own careers summary.. Debugging CPUs and programming requires attention to detail, this is not a guy that can be fooled easily with statistics.


  • #2


    You are unable to dispute the information presented by Mr. Heller and resort to ad-hominen attacks.

    The Potsdam Institute for Climate (PIK) is noteworthy for the individuals associated with it such as Stefan Rahmstorf, Ottmar Edenhofer and others who claim to speak as scientists for the science of climate science, their language and their agenda is clearly one of failed activism.

    You will find the influence of PIK in Irish academia, Irish media and Irish government quangos.

    PIK is a climate activism organisation and that makes it impossible for it to be a scientific organisation. The close association of Potsdam climate scientists with UN climate activists underscores this opinion. It is not possible to carry out unbiased scientific inquiry when the researchers have an activism agenda in terms of the research question.

    I didn’t attack him I just looked at his website and got his angle and then cross checked his claims against with others sources. his theory that NASA fake there climate data appears erroneous to say the least similar to the flat earth conspiracy.


  • #2


    I didn’t attack him I just looked at his website and got his angle and then cross checked his claims against with others sources. his theory that NASA fake there climate data appears erroneous to say the least similar to the flat earth conspiracy.

    Just as an aside, but wasn't NASA, in part, created by Nazi scientists brought over to the US from Germany?

    Or is that just 'conspiracy'.


  • #2


    I didn’t attack him I just looked at his website and got his angle and then cross checked his claims against with others sources. his theory that NASA fake there climate data appears erroneous to say the least similar to the flat earth conspiracy.

    You did not dispute his claims in the videos. One of the sources you referenced is a smear site run by a public relations firm based in Canada called Hoggan and Associates. It is their paid job to smear and spin, and they have a long track record of doing so. This site has contributions from an Irish activist by the name of John Gibbons, who occasionally turns up plying his opinions in Irish print and broadcast media.




  • #2


    If you need a bullsh1t Youtube video that nobody is going to waste a minute of their time watching nevermind refuting to make your argument for you then you generally dont have a leg to stand on.

    Dont you think its strange that thats such a popular tactic among the flat Earth/Anti-vax/Climate denial crowd? Youtube video after Youtube video full of lies and BS, not designed to make any coherent point, just to waste peoples time and give the person with no argument a lazy "well if you didnt watch the video..." defence.


  • #2


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Just as an aside, but wasn't NASA, in part, created by Nazi scientists brought over to the US from Germany?

    Or is that just 'conspiracy'.

    I don’t know as to created by but yes nazi rocket scientists we’re brought to America. The Soviet’s did the same with whomever they could lay there hands on. You could only defend this by saying reason we know so much about hyperthermia now is partly down to nazi science/torture ala Joseph Mengele the angel of death, there’sno way around that either.


  • #2


    Thargor wrote: »
    If you need a bullsh1t Youtube video that nobody is going to waste a minute of their time watching nevermind refuting to make your argument for you then you generally dont have a leg to stand on.

    Dont you think its strange that thats such a popular tactic among the flat Earth/Anti-vax/Climate denial crowd? Youtube video after Youtube video full of lies and BS, not designed to make any coherent point, just to waste peoples time and give the person with no argument a lazy "well if you didnt watch the video..." defence.

    If you don't want to bother wasting your time watching the video, here are the graphs he showed, albeit some for the US. You're welcome...

    554889.jpg


  • #2


    You're welcome...
    Oh wow thanks, Ill be sure to spend a few hours digging into these graphs of "Hidden Data" like you tricked Akrasia into doing recently.


  • #2


    Thargor wrote: »
    Oh wow thanks, Ill be sure to spend a few hours digging into these graphs of "Hidden Data" like you tricked Akrasia into doing recently.

    giphy.gif


  • #2


    I don’t know as to created by but yes nazi rocket scientists we’re brought to America. The Soviet’s did the same with whomever they could lay there hands on. You could only defend this by saying reason we know so much about hyperthermia now is partly down to nazi science/torture ala Joseph Mengele the angel of death, there’sno way around that either.

    There is no defending it at all.


  • #2


    I didn’t attack him I just looked at his website and got his angle and then cross checked his claims against with others sources. his theory that NASA fake there climate data appears erroneous to say the least similar to the flat earth conspiracy.

    Instead of adopting the standard Akrasia tactic of Googling the man before looking at the content, why don't you (and others) rubbish the actual graphs I posted above? I went to a lot of bother screenshotting them so that you wouldn't have to go through the pain of watch the video (I know, I can't listen to that voice either). If he is, as you say, full of it then it should be very easy for you to post simple evidence highlighting how each one of his graphs is fake.


  • #2


    Instead of adopting the standard Akrasia tactic of Googling the man before looking at the content, why don't you (and others) rubbish the actual graphs I posted above? I went to a lot of bother screenshotting them so that you wouldn't have to go through the pain of watch the video (I know, I can't listen to that voice either). If he is, as you say, full of it then it should be very easy for you to post simple evidence highlighting how each one of his graphs is fake.

    I had replied to PA before you posted the graphs also the two YouTube clips on my reply explain the flaws. The second clip is an panel interview with Brian Cox the physicist debating an Australian senator, Malcom something I forget his last name, and this guy heller teamed up with that senator to counter the nasa narrative, I know this because it says it on hellers climate science website.

    I’ve tried arguing my point before and it’s a waste of time better post up links and let people do there own reading/viewing and make up their own mind if their genuinely interested


  • #2


    I had replied to PA before you posted the graphs also the two YouTube clips on my reply explain the flaws. The second clip is an panel interview with Brian Cox the physicist debating an Australian senator, Malcom something I forget his last name, and this guy heller teamed up with that senator to counter the nasa narrative, I know this because it says it on hellers climate science website.

    I’ve tried arguing my point before and it’s a waste of time better post up links and let people do there own reading/viewing and make up their own mind if their genuinely interested

    Let me try again. Your reply to Pa's video was not about the content but rather about "Who is Tony Heller?". The links and videos were not about the graphs posted. You've again dodged the question.

    The substance of your replies and contributions would suggest you don't have much of an idea about the science. I can't remember you ever making any technical argument, instead relying on either childish personal insults or the odd unrelated link or video. This is the Science forum, not After Hours, so why not start contributing your own arguments?


  • #2


    Instead of adopting the standard Akrasia tactic of Googling the man before looking at the content, why don't you (and others) rubbish the actual graphs I posted above? I went to a lot of bother screenshotting them so that you wouldn't have to go through the pain of watch the video (I know, I can't listen to that voice either). If he is, as you say, full of it then it should be very easy for you to post simple evidence highlighting how each one of his graphs is fake.

    Well said GL, and I noticed that the first shot down fired was trying to attribute "Covid-denier" to his video. Selective language is the music, Drama is the theatrics and the facts never even get a back seat, they're firmly in the boot. Same old tired tactics over and over and over.


  • #2


    Danno wrote: »
    Well said GL, and I noticed that the first shot down fired was trying to attribute "Covid-denier" to his video. Selective language is the music, Drama is the theatrics and the facts never even get a back seat, they're firmly in the boot. Same old tired tactics over and over and over.

    It’s on his own website https://realclimatescience.com/2020/09/longtime-climate-denier-tony-heller-gets-youtube-ban-for-covid-denial/

    He was banned after posting a video of a German doctor being arrested during an anti mask/lockdown protest in London. This German guy spoke to the crowd others speakers that day included David Icke the holocaust denier.


  • #2


    Let me try again. Your reply to Pa's video was not about the content but rather about "Who is Tony Heller?". The links and videos were not about the graphs posted. You've again dodged the question.

    The substance of your replies and contributions would suggest you don't have much of an idea about the science. I can't remember you ever making any technical argument, instead relying on either childish personal insults or the odd unrelated link or video. This is the Science forum, not After Hours, so why not start contributing your own arguments?

    This sums up my view, I have previously posted this in my first reply, not that you even looked at it but there are graphs and all.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XjPkclkZh6o


  • #2


    It’s on his own website https://realclimatescience.com/2020/09/longtime-climate-denier-tony-heller-gets-youtube-ban-for-covid-denial/

    He was banned after posting a video of a German doctor being arrested during an anti mask/lockdown protest in London. This German guy spoke to the crowd others speakers that day included David Icke the holocaust denier.
    #

    Was the actual German doctor quoted by Anthony Heller a 'holocaust denier'? That would be pretty strange, given that Heller himself is a Jew, which is something I found this while doing some spot research on him a year or two ago after he was accused of being 'far right' on this thread.

    But there does seem to be a pattern emerging with neolib 'rebuttals' this last while:
    'Climate denier'
    'Covid denier'
    'Holocaust denier'
    Lockdown denier'
    'Mask denier'
    'Science denier'
    'Vaccine denier'

    I've said it before, but there is nothing as dangerous as stupid, unthinking people.


  • #2


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    #

    Was the actual German doctor quoted by Anthony Heller a 'holocaust denier'? That would be pretty strange, given that Heller himself is a Jew, which is something I found this while doing some spot research on him a year or two ago after he was accused of being 'far right' on this thread.

    But there does seem to be a pattern emerging with neolib 'rebuttals' this last while:
    'Climate denier'
    'Covid denier'
    'Holocaust denier'
    Lockdown denier'
    'Mask denier'
    'Science denier'
    'Vaccine denier'

    I've said it before, but there is nothing as dangerous as stupid, unthinking people.

    Does the Holocaust denier daivd icke have legitimacy in your opinion.


  • #2


    Does the Holocaust denier daivd icke have legitimacy in your opinion.

    Can you just answer my very simple question please?


  • #2


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Can you just answer my very simple question please?

    I don’t know but he spoke on the same platform as one, that is to say David Icke. The same David Icke that pontificates about lizard people and all sorts of conspiracy theories. The fact that this Tony Hellar guy associates with such people means that serious questions have to be asked about his own agenda.

    Donald Trump spun out “facts” also did you believe any of that. (Not a question)


  • #2


    This sums up my view, I have previously posted this in my first reply, not that you even looked at it but there are graphs and all.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XjPkclkZh6o

    Yes, sorry, you did post that, I don't know how I missed it. In any case, that video is as bad as he makes out Heller's video is. He seems to change the goalposts and focus away from the actual graphs posted by Heller, making some strange arguments in the process. Examples:

    Heatwaves: The original Climate Assessment Report one-pager Heller is "debunking" shows heatwaves, as measured in days (top left bar chart highlighted below). Strangely, Heller superimposes this chart (measured in days) on top of the Heatwave Index chart, which doesn't seem to make sense. It would be more correct to stick to days, as shown in the second highlighted chart below. Baker also does the same and ends up shifting the discussion to daily high and low temperatures, showing an increase in daily lows. He also dismisses the Dust Bowl hot decade as something that may have been to do with poor farming methods or something else, we don't really know, so he says ignore it. If we do, he agrees that the graph that Heller did show (Index) is still otherwise pretty much flat.

    So he accepts Heller's analyisis is correct on the one hand, but then claims it's not by switching focus to something unrelated to the topic shown in the one-pager (i.e. heatwave days). An increase in nightime low temperatures is not a reliable metric to base a claim on, as station siting plays a major role in this, as we've seen here ourselves when we talk about Shannon v Dublin Airports (and indeed Dublin v Phoenix Park and Casement, both of which have large concrete structures or areas in close proximity to the sensors, acting as heat sources well into the night).

    Baker then goes and posts another graph (blue/red bar graph below), cherrypicking the period from only the 1950s onwards, ignoring before it. That kind of backs up Heller's point, wouldn't you think?

    555042.jpg

    555043.jpg

    Wildfires total acres burnt graph, he tries to make some argument differentiating "wildfires" from "incendiary" fires in order to try to negate Heller's point, but in reality there is no real difference between the two. Just like today, fires 100 years ago were started both deliberately and naturally. He is right, though, when he says that this is not a reliable metric on which to claim climate doom, a point I've made here in the past when the Australian and Californian fires were being bandied about as signals of impending doom here. He argues that forestry practices may have been much worse back 80-100 years ago, yet when that point was claimed about practices in Australia in recent years it was rubbished. Double standards again.

    Arctic Sea Ice: Heller uses an old IPCC graph, showing several years of satellite data prior to the 1979 "start" of the satellite measurement age. These are data that the IPCC back then deemed good enough to be used, but Baker claims that only passive microwave data should be used (though still posts a link to an article showing ice data going back to 1850, implying that that's more reliable). Heller is not wrong in what he posted, showing the lower extent in the early '70s, but Baker simply dismisses that period. Yes, since 1990 the ice has decreased below that of the early '70s, so even Heller's point is lost then.

    Sea level: He dismisses Heller's New York graph from 1850 onwards on the basis that it doesn't account for all of the US, and then shows his own graph from only 1990 onwards to try to say that Heller is wrong. But both graphs are showing basically the same thing and with not too dissimilar trends (Heller's 2.84 mm/yr, Baker's 3.3 mm/yr). It's just that Heller shows that this same trend was occuring back to at least 1890 (there's a 20-year large gap in data before that). Baker doesn't prove anything here other than the fact that he's wrong.

    Baker simply ignores and skips over Heller's Waverley, OH temperature graph. Why? Maybe he couldn't debunk that one either. He is right about the Edenhofer misquote, though, and agrees with Heller on the ridiculous claims of other doomsayers, such as the New York Times and that stupid bint, Ocasio-Cortez.

    So Baker actually does a pretty bad job in this video, himself changing goalposts and cherrypicking time periods himself. Heller is not 100% squeaky clean either, but on the whole, most of his points remain undebunked by this video. Maybe Banana Republic can do a better job than Baker?
    I don’t know but he spoke on the same platform as one, that is to say David Icke. The same David Icke that pontificates about lizard people and all sorts of conspiracy theories. The fact that this Tony Hellar guy associates with such people means that serious questions have to be asked about his own agenda.

    Donald Trump spun out “facts” also did you believe any of that. (Not a question)

    David Icke is a total nutjob, given the nonsense that he spouts. I don't know why Heller or anyone else would associate with him, but as we all know, everyone wants to gain exposure, and if that means swimming with the bottom-feeders then some people will stoop to it.


  • #2


    I don’t know but he spoke on the same platform as one, that is to say David Icke. The same David Icke that pontificates about lizard people and all sorts of conspiracy theories. The fact that this Tony Hellar guy associates with such people means that serious questions have to be asked about his own agenda.

    Donald Trump spun out “facts” also did you believe any of that. (Not a question)
    I'm going to spend some time tomorrow watching a few of his vids to get the feel of him (and I'm not relishing the prospect to be frank) Yes, he may have an agenda, but so do the climate change lobby as well.

    And I am not sure why, as well as throwing in David Icke, you are now throwing in the Trump bomb as well, but yes, it was good to see the present day intellectual giants that we have come to know as the corporate media and messianic scientists keeping Trump 'fact-checked' during his term:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/05/politics/fauci-trump-coronavirus-wuhan-lab/index.html


  • #2


    The theories of David Icke are really one step further along than many of us would care to go, some might say that we face an elitist class without much conscience or compassion for the average person, David Icke says they are reptilian life forms (and presumably look at humans as we might look at higher animal forms of life).

    I don't agree with him but I see what causes him to draw such outlandish conclusions. We have separated out into factions in the modern world and it's very difficult for one faction to have any real dialogue or communication with the other factor, partly out of a lack of trust, and partly because the operating assumptions are so different that we are in fact two species now, although biologically still one human race.

    This is a problem everyone faces and some try not to choose sides at all but co-exist with both sides. This creates an almost inevitable mental blurring where no definite conclusions can be drawn about anything, because once you do draw a conclusion, you are likely accepting one side and rejecting the other.

    There are ways out of this, history is full of cases of deep schisms over things that just puzzle people today, such as old religious feuds about obscure theological points, or debates about things like the ether or phlogiston.

    Sometimes a "third way" is found and that seems reasonable to enough people on either side of a schism that the rift is rendered invalid. I was looking for that way forward in my "climate change 3.0" thread and the proposals within that, but the discussion reverted to the schism rather than the proposal and moderators decided it was time to close down the discussion altogether. Unfortunate but predictable I suppose.

    The climate change debate won't be resolved by some easy breakthrough in thought processes, it will probably go away more through one of two outcomes, either (a) there won't be much of a melt and people will start to lose interest, or (b) there will be such a melt that we'll need to respond to it, and while both sides may go ahead with different ideas as to cause and effect, the main focus will become either mitigation or survival (depending on how your country sits relative to sea level, I am rather conveniently camped out at 1050 m so will be beyond the reach of the rising seas no matter how much ice melts).

    Not being flippant about this, I am convinced we are in the cross-hairs but not for the reasons advanced by orthodox climate change theory. We probably do have a rather limited time available to do things about it, and the current plan is not going to work and cannot work.


  • #2


    Yes, what we really need to do is get rid of the idea of everyone owning a car, electric or not. Hopefully we'll head in that direction eventually, where possible.
    It takes planning for the future and designing our cities and countryside better, which we're not exactly good at in Ireland.

    No private cars ? What a miserable backwards leap. Especially with electric cars being manufactured today. They'll come down in price eventually too.

    That's exactly the sort of stuff that makes people wonder if there is an alternate agenda. Alot of people would also prefer, if given the option, of a warmer world with private transport rather than a soylent green/1984 type of so called eco friendly existence where nobody can have a car or light a fire or eat meat and all live crammed in tower blocks.


  • #2


    No private cars ? What a miserable backwards leap. Especially with electric cars being manufactured today. They'll come down in price eventually too.

    That's exactly the sort of stuff that makes people wonder if there is an alternate agenda. Alot of people would also prefer, if given the option, of a warmer world with private transport rather than a soylent green/1984 type of so called eco friendly existence where nobody can have a car or light a fire or eat meat and all live crammed in tower blocks.

    It's a laughable idea, "designing our countryside better". We shouldn't need to travel from the arsehole of somewhere to the arsehole of somewhere else the other side of the country. No, everywhere should be within walking or cycling distance from everywhere else. Bloody geology and plate techtonics, making different places far from eachother. I'm sure someone will try to claim that human ghgs gave no doubt made the distances further too.

    We need to somehow make a black hole, which will remove the distances and hence the need for cars.

    Maybe T. Monk was being sarcastic when he posted that. I hope so, because if not then it probably ranks as the most crazy post in the history of Boards.


  • #2


    Maybe T. Monk was being sarcastic when he posted that. I hope so, because if not then it probably ranks as the most crazy post in the history of Boards.

    The idea of moving away from private cars being as dominant in transport as they are is a crazy idea? Many would suggest continuing the status quo with cars is completely crazy as there's only so much room.
    Anyway it's hardly the place for this discussion, Infrastructure forum has a discussion on reducing the amount of cars should you wish to join in.


  • #2


    The idea of moving away from private cars being as dominant in transport as they are is a crazy idea? Many would suggest continuing the status quo with cars is completely crazy as there's only so much room.
    Anyway it's hardly the place for this discussion, Infrastructure forum has a discussion on reducing the amount of cars should you wish to join in.

    You"re the one who brought up the idea in this thread that we should move away from everyone owning a car. How would you suggest people shouldie move from A to B, especially those living out in the countr Should they be moved to the towns to make a 100% urban demographic and have a hub-spoke model of public transport? How would that work? Has the past century of the car therefore been a complete backward step in human development?

    Would you also therefore recommend grounding planes and ships too and just having virtual holidays and family reunions? Virtual hugs...it might catch on.


  • #2


    You"re the one who brought up the idea in this thread that we should move away from everyone owning a car. How would you suggest people shouldie move from A to B, especially those living out in the countr Should they be moved to the towns to make a 100% urban demographic and have a hub-spoke model of public transport? How would that work? Has the past century of the car therefore been a complete backward step in human development?

    Would you also therefore recommend grounding planes and ships too and just having virtual holidays and family reunions? Virtual hugs...it might catch on.

    I wouldn't say it's been a complete backward step, but designing societies around the private car is a complete disaster in my opinion, and the opinion of many others! It has held back public transport, led to people requiring a car to live, etc. etc.
    I can't find my post to see why I brought it up, but cars often come up in discussions on climate change.
    The number of cars being sold and on the road is higher than ever, so it's not like anything is going to drastically change any time soon, it doesn't mean some people think we should be doing things in other ways.


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