Building a house as a non-local?

dawanda

Hi everyone,

I'm German but permanently live in Ireland because of my job. I need to move into my own place at some point, so I am thinking of various options.

I was trying to look into building your own house but it always says "subject to planning permission". I contacted a few agents and from what I understand I would only be allowed to build if I were a long-time local - which, of course, I am not. Is this only Wicklow? Or only parts of Wicklow? Are there any areas not all too far from Dublin (max. 1.5 hrs by car) where I can get a permission as a non-local?
I tried google but nothing came up - must have not used the right search terms. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'd like to calculate whether building a house would work out cheaper than buying an already existing one. But also, I would be quite interested in an eco friendly house (solar power etc) and I would also looooooove a sunroom. It's been my dream since a child. And I couldn't find many houses with sunrooms in my price class and I am not sure whether it's something you can add to a house later. I assume you need a planning permission for this as well :rolleyes:

Thanks in advance

even if you satisfy local needs you may find the cost of building a house in Ireland since 2020 prohibitive and the end result not to your liking as each Council has an office of Planners who are self-appointed arbiter/guardian of what they consider good taste using phrases like "not in keeping with the local vernacular" to disallow your plans.
Near Zero Emission Building(NZEB) regulations add 20 to 30% to the cost of construction.
Building a house in Ireland will be nowhere near as inexpensive as massivbau or fertighaus to similar standards in Germany. Your money will go a lot farther building the house of your dreams somewhere like the Swabian Alps or Mosel Valley or Taunus region than in Ireland and the cost to finance it with a mortgage a fraction of the zinsen rate.

dawanda

Thank you for your reply, that's very devastating.
I really like my job and I'm happy enough in Ireland, but the housing situation is just unbearable. I am feeling completely helpless. I would get a mortgage given that I have a secure job but as a single person I would only be able to afford the bottom 20% or so and obviously nothing less than 1.5 hrs away from Dublin where I live. It's devastating for me that for the same salary I would be able to afford everything I am dreaming of in Germany. But I really want to keep my job because I love it, so I am just trying to find some solution

Just look at the cost of contruction quotes on the building and construction sub-forum. They are frightening.
You could build within the boundaries of a town without local needs but if your quality of life depends on living in the countryside then this won't be satisfactory for you.

dawanda

I don't have to live in the countryside, but I would like a garden.
I still don't get the idea of local needs. What is it? Who decides that? Is there a way to find out before visiting a planner's office?

Spanish Eyes

You could search for a cottage or similar that needs refurbishment. That would not be subject to local needs.

cnocbui

If I were a billionaire, i would love to rip this country a few new ones by challenging some of the nonsense that goes on here, such a favouring 'locals' at the EU court level. I'm currently making moves to emigrate.

Graham

dawanda wrote: »

I still don't get the idea of local needs. What is it? Who decides that? Is there a way to find out before visiting a planner's office?

From what you've said you can assume you will fail to qualify for local needs in pretty much any county* for some or all of the following:

• you don't already live there
• you're not from there
• you don't have strong connections there
• you're not employed there
• you have no family there

In short, you have no 'need' to be there.

Your best bet for self building is to find a site with planning that doesn't have a 'local needs' requirement.

Added to clarify

* in an area with a local needs requirement.

awec

dawanda wrote: »

I don't have to live in the countryside, but I would like a garden.
I still don't get the idea of local needs. What is it? Who decides that? Is there a way to find out before visiting a planner's office?

It's to stop random houses being built all over the countryside. It is more efficient and sustainable for housing to be provided in population centres rather than haphazard ribbon development. It allows for much better provisioning of services.

Local needs means you can only do this if you can demonstrate that you have some requirement to live in that area.

As someone mentioned above you can get around this if you buy a site that has already has a property on it and knock it / renovate it instead.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Just look at the cost of contruction quotes on the building and construction sub-forum. They are frightening.
You could build within the boundaries of a town without local needs but if your quality of life depends on living in the countryside then this won't be satisfactory for you.

It is incredibly unlikely the OP would be able to buy a site in a town and build a house for less money than it would cost to buy one from a developer.

I am not convinced that self builds are cheaper, unless you are being gifted a site or finish the house to a very low spec.

lalababa

Option of buying is much better than building , especially for you. Any kind of an old shack maybe better than renting in Dublin. Another option is you could buy a bit of land and have a camper van/mobile with a dry toilet and do your showers at the local gym/club.(in order to save up for buying shack/house)
Guessing an acre of agri land around 10k.

awec

awec wrote: »

It is incredibly unlikely the OP would be able to buy a site in a town and build a house for less money than it would cost to buy one from a developer.

In my home town it is possible at similar cost and saves them for the 20% social housing anti-social behaviour lottery.

Marcusm

dawanda wrote: »

I don't have to live in the countryside, but I would like a garden.
I still don't get the idea of local needs. What is it? Who decides that? Is there a way to find out before visiting a planner's office?

"Local needs" where it applies only relates to one-off builds outside the perimeter of a town or village. One does not need to be a local to satisfy "local needs" but it can often help for persons who need to live on or near, for example, agircultural land which they will be working.

It is simply incorrect to state that there is nothin within 1.5 hours of Dublin which is available for an average (or likely in your case, above average) budget.

Will you be traveling to Dublin daily for work? Do you wish to rely on public transport? Are you willing./able to consider bus as well as train transport.

What size property do you require? Size of accommodation, size of garden, privacy etc. What type of local facilities do you require? Building plots will be available within the town/village confines in Wicklow and Kildare which will not be subject to local needs. I am sure the same is true in Meath and Louth also. (All within 90 minutes.)

Marcusm

awec wrote: »

It is incredibly unlikely the OP would be able to buy a site in a town and build a house for less money than it would cost to buy one from a developer.

I am not convinced that self builds are cheaper, unless you are being gifted a site or finish the house to a very low spec.

True developers are rarely interested in small urban plots on which they can build one or two properties. If the resultant property fits the OP's requirements, is it a problem that it might cost more than a cookie cutter house in a 50 unit development (such as it might be inferred that the OP doesn't desire).

awec

Marcusm wrote: »

True developers are rarely interested in small urban plots on which they can build one or two properties. If the resultant property fits the OP's requirements, is it a problem that it might cost more than a cookie cutter house in a 50 unit development (such as it might be inferred that the OP doesn't desire).

No, but the OP was trying to figure out if it would be cheaper to build rather than buy.

IMHO it is unlikely to be cheaper, unless they are gifted a site (obviously not applicable in the OPs case) or they find a cheap enough site and build a low spec house.

Again, IMHO if you are asking for build vs buy a like-for-like house, buying would be cheaper.

Gumbo

dawanda wrote: »

I don't have to live in the countryside, but I would like a garden.
I still don't get the idea of local needs. What is it? Who decides that? Is there a way to find out before visiting a planner's office?

Employ a local planning agent.
Not all councils operate Local Needs.

There are many that don’t.

dawanda

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

You could search for a cottage or similar that needs refurbishment. That would not be subject to local needs.

Ahh, thanks for the tip, I didn't know that. I wouldn't be able to refurbish myself. Is it advisable to go down that road when you need to hire peoople?

dawanda

awec wrote: »

It's to stop random houses being built all over the countryside. It is more efficient and sustainable for housing to be provided in population centres rather than haphazard ribbon development. It allows for much better provisioning of services.

Local needs means you can only do this if you can demonstrate that you have some requirement to live in that area.

As someone mentioned above you can get around this if you buy a site that has already has a property on it and knock it / renovate it instead.

That's very helpful, thank you

CrazyFather1

Plenty of options available. All depends on budget. What sort of money you talking about?
You mention 1.5 hours from Dublin, I guess you are not doing a daily commute? are you talking 1.5 hours door to door because I live way outside Dublin, it took me 40 min to get to outskirts and then an hour to get to office :-) so just wondering are you working in city centre etc?

People get hung up on an area and then HAVE to build in it or buy in it, so the prices goes nuts. You can look around and find plenty of options available. The big question is budget or what you think you will get for a mortgage.

sydthebeat

dawanda wrote: »

I don't have to live in the countryside, but I would like a garden.
I still don't get the idea of local needs. What is it? Who decides that? Is there a way to find out before visiting a planner's office?

"Rural housing" is a finite resource, which has been used extensively over the last 30 years.
As it is finite, it needs to be rationed, and it is government policy that rural housing should be restricted to those with a need to live on the rural area... This is what is referred to as "local needs"... And applicants need to prove their need. There are many criteria to do this.

That being said, there are large parts of the countryside where population is dropping and there is no restriction on local need.

So it is very possible to get permission for a rural house in many parts of the country, even when you are not a local.

Of course, these areas are not yet highly desired country areas a couple of miles outside of large towns... They very much are deep countryside areas... Pretty much furthest from large cities and towns

dawanda

Marcusm wrote: »

"Local needs" where it applies only relates to one-off builds outside the perimeter of a town or village. One does not need to be a local to satisfy "local needs" but it can often help for persons who need to live on or near, for example, agircultural land which they will be working.

It is simply incorrect to state that there is nothin within 1.5 hours of Dublin which is available for an average (or likely in your case, above average) budget.

Will you be traveling to Dublin daily for work? Do you wish to rely on public transport? Are you willing./able to consider bus as well as train transport.

What size property do you require? Size of accommodation, size of garden, privacy etc. What type of local facilities do you require? Building plots will be available within the town/village confines in Wicklow and Kildare which will not be subject to local needs. I am sure the same is true in Meath and Louth also. (All within 90 minutes.)

My budget is 250k at the very, very max (200K is more realistic). I have to be in Dublin 3 times a week and I can drive, so there does not have to be great public transport. I am looking for something at least 80 sqm, privacy (so not a terraced house), a decent size garden, but does not need to be huge. I'm not really good in estimating sizes, I'm sorry.
I am dreaming of sitting in my sunroom getting lots of sun because I am getting severely depressed if I don't have enough sun. I know that's hard in Ireland but Wicklow actually works out pretty well for me. If the area is too build up there's not much sun for anyone at home, of course. That's why I would be looking for something detached or semi-detached, I guess.
But I am completely new to the topic of buying a home and I don't have parents or family at all that could advise me, so I am super grateful for any advice from you guys.

Baybay

Dwanda, have a look on Daft.ie

If you’re not already familiar with the site, start by looking in Co. Wicklow to see what’s available in your price range.
You’ll see some older cottages & housing stock in need of refurbishment across the county. Of course, you might also see something new, energy efficient with a small garden that would also suit.
Unless you want a particularly large garden, generally speaking houses have some outdoor space that will allow some sort of garden room to be added at the back of a property where additions up to a fairly generous size are allowed without planning permission being required.

dawanda

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Plenty of options available. All depends on budget. What sort of money you talking about?
You mention 1.5 hours from Dublin, I guess you are not doing a daily commute? are you talking 1.5 hours door to door because I live way outside Dublin, it took me 40 min to get to outskirts and then an hour to get to office :-) so just wondering are you working in city centre etc?

People get hung up on an area and then HAVE to build in it or buy in it, so the prices goes nuts. You can look around and find plenty of options available. The big question is budget or what you think you will get for a mortgage.

Budget is 200K though I could stretch it to a max of 250K (but would like to avoid that since it would be pretty tough to pay it off before I retire). I work in south Dublin, so I can avoid the city centre. I have to commute at least 3 days a week. 1.5 hrs one-way sucks but what can I do??

dawanda

sydthebeat wrote: »

"Rural housing" is a finite resource, which has been used extensively over the last 30 years.
As it is finite, it needs to be rationed, and it is government policy that rural housing should be restricted to those with a need to live on the rural area... This is what is referred to as "local needs"... And applicants need to prove their need. There are many criteria to do this.

That being said, there are large parts of the countryside where population is dropping and there is no restriction on local need.

So it is very possible to get permission for a rural house in many parts of the country, even when you are not a local.

Of course, these areas are not yet highly desired country areas a couple of miles outside of large towns... They very much are deep countryside areas... Pretty much furthest from large cities and towns

Thank you, that's very interesting. Any idea how to find it from the comfort of my home what areas this might apply to?
I feel like pretty much everywhere expect Dublin is very small (coming from Germany, I guess), so I'm not sure I would feel the difference between, say, Gorey and outside Baltinglass (to name two random places). But I need a stable wifi connection for work and from what I read this can be an issue in Ireland's more rural areas.

Gosh, I wish my work were in Donegal. Beautiful houses there on daft.

dawanda

Baybay wrote: »

Dwanda, have a look on Daft.ie

If you’re not already familiar with the site, start by looking in Co. Wicklow to see what’s available in your price range.
You’ll see some older cottages & housing stock in need of refurbishment across the county. Of course, you might also see something new, energy efficient with a small garden that would also suit.
Unless you want a particularly large garden, generally speaking houses have some outdoor space that will allow some sort of garden room to be added at the back of a property where additions up to a fairly generous size are allowed without planning permission being required.

Aaah, that's good to know about the garden room.

Yes, I am on daft aaaaaaall the time. There's really nothing in co. Wicklow in my price category :-( I didn't consider places that need refurb because I wouldn't be able to do this myself and I heard people advice against it unless you can do stuff yourself. But maybe that's not true?

Spanish Eyes

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-glenview-gorey-road-carnew-wicklow/4464667

Looks in great condition generally, and according to google maps 1.5 hour commute to Dublin. This is just one of many I found within your budget.

Have to pass the time during lockdown somehow!

dawanda

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-glenview-gorey-road-carnew-wicklow/4464667

Looks in great condition generally, and according to google maps 1.5 hour commute to Dublin. This is just one of many I found within your budget.

Have to pass the time during lockdown somehow!

Never saw this side, I thought daft.ie was the only one (and rent.ie, but same company). Thank you!

dawanda

Is it expensive to update a house with an E or even worse energy rating?

Marcusm

dawanda wrote: »

Thank you, that's very interesting. Any idea how to find it from the comfort of my home what areas this might apply to?
I feel like pretty much everywhere expect Dublin is very small (coming from Germany, I guess), so I'm not sure I would feel the difference between, say, Gorey and outside Baltinglass (to name two random places). But I need a stable wifi connection for work and from what I read this can be an issue in Ireland's more rural areas.

Gosh, I wish my work were in Donegal. Beautiful houses there on daft.

There would be a worldof difference between living outside Gorey, a large and growing town with facilities serving amuch greater area than the town itself and Baltinglass, a small bnut pretty village with few local facilities than nice countryside.

More importantly, one is close to a motorway and the other close to a two lane road to Dublin. There would be a world of difference vis a vis commuting unless you were heading to Citywest, Parkwest or one of those areas.

Do you intend to live an isolated lifestyle?

Do a daft or myhome search fro properties with a minimum of 2 beds in Wicklow and Wexford for up to EUR200k and see what'savailable.

dawanda

Marcusm wrote: »

There would be a worldof difference between living outside Gorey, a large and growing town with facilities serving amuch greater area than the town itself and Baltinglass, a small bnut pretty village with few local facilities than nice countryside.

More importantly, one is close to a motorway and the other close to a two lane road to Dublin. There would be a world of difference vis a vis commuting unless you were heading to Citywest, Parkwest or one of those areas.

Do you intend to live an isolated lifestyle?

Do a daft or myhome search fro properties with a minimum of 2 beds in Wicklow and Wexford for up to EUR200k and see what'savailable.

Well, I already feel very isolated living in Bray, so right now I can't see any difference. I don't have family or family ties in any way here, so it's difficult. I need to commute to Stillorgan. It's definitely tricky. I think if I have a really nice house I'll be ok not having any coffee shops or whereever I would like to go around.

Mrs OBumble

How old are you? Do you have a partner, or much chance of getting one? Do you expect to have kids?

These factors should be considered before you commit to a mortgage.

Marcusm

dawanda wrote: »

Well, I already feel very isolated living in Bray, so right now I can't see any difference. I don't have family or family ties in any way here, so it's difficult. I need to commute to Stillorgan. It's definitely tricky. I think if I have a really nice house I'll be ok not having any coffee shops or whereever I would like to go around.

The difference would be 3 hours a day in a car three times a week which, in Winter, would mena you would hate where you live even more than now.

You are not identifying any particualr reasons why you want to live more rurally, outdoor sports, grow vegetables etc. It's not something I would recommend if, as you say, you feel isolated living in Bray. It owuld be a recipe for disaster if there is nothing drawing you there as opposed to simply purchasing something for the sake of it.

dawanda

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How old are you? Do you have a partner, or much chance of getting one? Do you expect to have kids?

These factors should be considered before you commit to a mortgage.

44, no partner, no kids now or in planning. None of this is ideal, I know, not so much for getting a mortgage (although it, of course, limits the house price I can pay) but in terms of social isolation. I just don't know what to do, honestly. I can't afford Dublin and a garden with enough light coming in is really important for my mental health.

jiminho

Don’t want to hijack this thread but I am embarking on the journey to build a house. Life long goal, I realize it will be very very tough but it’s something I’ve always wanted to do. Regarding local needs, I have a similar situation. I grew up in an area you could consider urban (lots and lots of residential areas) but I want to build a home just out this area. It’s not within the “Green Belt” which from what I understand is essentially impossible to build a home unless you’re a farmer but in an area that local needs apply. Myself and my family are looking to move back to Ireland after a decade outside of the country and will be looking to send our kids to school in the area and hopefully get jobs in the area too. My question is, what is considered local in this specific situation? There is a particularly area with a cluster of houses that appears to have lots of “gaps” in between them which is located less than 900m away from the house I lived for 20 years. Also, all my family lives in the same estate so I have family very close to where I would like to build. The school we want to send our kids is 3.5km away. Jobs is a question mark but I’m curious if any of the criteria is quantifiable.

dawanda

Marcusm wrote: »

The difference would be 3 hours a day in a car three times a week which, in Winter, would mena you would hate where you live even more than now.

You are not identifying any particualr reasons why you want to live more rurally, outdoor sports, grow vegetables etc. It's not something I would recommend if, as you say, you feel isolated living in Bray. It owuld be a recipe for disaster if there is nothing drawing you there as opposed to simply purchasing something for the sake of it.

Yeah. I'm really concerned about that too.
I don't necessarily want to live more rurally, but I want to live somewhere where I can catch a lot of sunlight sitting at home and with enough space for me and my dogs. So, I couldn't sit on 60 sqm or less and I couldn't be somewhere where everything around me completely built up. I am relatively lucky where I rent rn when it comes to light and to the size of the place but I couldn't afford to buy one of the houses in my estate either, they all go for more than 400k.

dawanda

Thank you, everyone who is trying to help me. I truly appreciate it. I am so desperate and I worried I might make the wrong decision out of desperation - whether it's quitting my job, buying a small apartment (which I don't really want) near Dublin or buying a house in the middle of nowhere (which is probably not good for my mental health either). I am so stuck. That's why I am so grateful for all of your kind and extremely helpful posts. Thank you!

blackbox

dawanda wrote: »

Budget is 200K though I could stretch it to a max of 250K (but would like to avoid that since it would be pretty tough to pay it off before I retire). I work in south Dublin, so I can avoid the city centre. I have to commute at least 3 days a week. 1.5 hrs one-way sucks but what can I do??

Unfortunately the banks won't give you a mortgage for a property that requires extensive refurbishment. They will factor in the cost of refurbishment. I.e. if you are approved for 250k they will only allow you to buy a 200k house if it is going to cost 50k to refurbish, even if you are happy to live in it while you gradually do the work.

sandyxxx

dawanda wrote: »

My budget is 250k at the very, very max (200K is more realistic). I have to be in Dublin 3 times a week and I can drive, so there does not have to be great public transport. I am looking for something at least 80 sqm, privacy (so not a terraced house), a decent size garden, but does not need to be huge. I'm not really good in estimating sizes, I'm sorry.
I am dreaming of sitting in my sunroom getting lots of sun because I am getting severely depressed if I don't have enough sun. I know that's hard in Ireland but Wicklow actually works out pretty well for me. If the area is too build up there's not much sun for anyone at home, of course. That's why I would be looking for something detached or semi-detached, I guess.
But I am completely new to the topic of buying a home and I don't have parents or family at all that could advise me, so I am super grateful for any advice from you guys.

Your budget won’t get much in along the N11 corridor in Wicklow,maybe in the west of the county,but that’s a world away from the east.....Id cast my eye to areas like Inch & Castletown in North Wexford....self builds have gone very expensive with energy reg’s!

dawanda

dawanda wrote: »

Ahh, thanks for the tip, I didn't know that. I wouldn't be able to refurbish myself. Is it advisable to go down that road when you need to hire peoople?

uninhabitable derelict cottages cost considerably more than bare sites where I come from because the Estate Agents know that outsiders can bid on them and tear them down. A 25k site becomes a 100k site if there is a rundown cottage on it.

tom1ie

This is an interesting thread.
What about if you wanted to build a house that required NO services, such as an earth ship?
Planning seems to have a section built around provision of services, but if you need none?

dawanda

blackbox wrote: »

Unfortunately the banks won't give you a mortgage for a property that requires extensive refurbishment. They will factor in the cost of refurbishment. I.e. if you are approved for 250k they will only allow you to buy a 200k house if it is going to cost 50k to refurbish, even if you are happy to live in it while you gradually do the work.

Ah, good to know, thank you. Still, there might be a better chance to get one for 200k that needs 50k in refurbishement than one in move-in condition for 250k

sydthebeat

tom1ie wrote: »

This is an interesting thread.
What about if you wanted to build a house that required NO services, such as an earth ship?
Planning seems to have a section built around provision of services, but if you need none?

Planning permission is based on use, not services.

Even an "earth ship" needs a road to its entrance and it needs a treatment for its waste

dawanda

sandyxxx wrote: »

Your budget won’t get much in along the N11 corridor in Wicklow,maybe in the west of the county,but that’s a world away from the east.....Id cast my eye to areas like Inch & Castletown in North Wexford....self builds have gone very expensive with energy reg’s!

That's a great tip, thanks. Can you recommend Inch and Castletown in terms of safety?

dawanda

tom1ie wrote: »

This is an interesting thread.
What about if you wanted to build a house that required NO services, such as an earth ship?
Planning seems to have a section built around provision of services, but if you need none?

I'm not quite sure whether you are taking the peepee or are being serious :P Because: what the hell is an earth ship?

dawanda

Deleted User wrote: »

uninhabitable derelict cottages cost considerably more than bare sites where I come from because the Estate Agents know that outsiders can bid on them and tear them down. A 25k site becomes a 100k site if there is a rundown cottage on it.

... and I assume it will have to be torn down rather than simply upgraded from the inside?

dawanda

dawanda wrote: »

... and I assume it will have to be torn down rather than simply upgraded from the inside?

Genau.

Graham

dawanda wrote: »

... and I assume it will have to be torn down rather than simply upgraded from the inside?

Probably not 'have to', more like 'cheaper to'.

dawanda

dawanda wrote: »

I'm not quite sure whether you are taking the peepee or are being serious :P Because: what the hell is an earth ship?

I just google it, oh my gosh, it looks awesome, now I want an earth ship. It's your fault!

tom1ie

sydthebeat wrote: »

Planning permission is based on use, not services.

Even an "earth ship" needs a road to its entrance and it needs a treatment for its waste

Well composting toilet plus Reed bed means it’s doesn’t need a sewage waste. Do you mean refuse?

tom1ie

dawanda wrote: »

I'm not quite sure whether you are taking the peepee or are being serious :P Because: what the hell is an earth ship?

Very serious.
https://youtu.be/j7SUjcwXY8w

tom1ie

dawanda wrote: »

I just google it, oh my gosh, it looks awesome, now I want an earth ship. It's your fault!

Lol! Yeah I would love to build one but I’ve no land.