Can England just opt out of the Uk?

Mulbert

I often wonder why England don't just separate themselves from the rest of the UK. Is it even legally possible after all this time?

Atlantic Dawn

The other 'nations' would need to first vote for independence, if they wanted to then join the EU they would be required to adopt the Euro.

Mulbert

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The other 'nations' would need to first vote for independence, if they wanted to then join the EU they would be required to adopt the Euro.

But England can't? Are all the home countries countries except England?

Smee_Again

Mulbert wrote: »

But England can't? Are all the home countries countries except England?

England can’t opt out it would have to expel the other nations from the Union.

Edited to add: and I doubt they could actually expel the other nations.

IAMAMORON

All the Nuclear Submarines and their arsenal are harboured in Scotland.

It is not going to happen.

Mulbert

Smee_Again wrote: »

England can’t opt out it would have to expel the other nations from the Union.

Thank you for that, thas interesting and quite mad. So could Westminster expel Scotland from the union even if they didn't want to leave?

Smee_Again

Mulbert wrote: »

Thank you for that, thas interesting and quite mad. So could Westminster expel Scotland from the union even if they didn't want to leave?

I edited my comment to say that I don’t think they could. But I’m not sure, depends on the wording of the original Act of Union I presume.

chiefwiggum

IAMAMORON wrote: »

All the Nuclear Submarines and their arsenal are harboured in Scotland.

It is not going to happen.

Well they will have to park them elsewhere as sooner or later Scotland will vote for independence and join the E.U

IAMAMORON

chiefwiggum wrote: »

Well they will have to park them elsewhere as sooner or later Scotland will vote for independence and join the E.U

That won't happen either, sure they only voted against independence a few years ago.

Most people in Scotland are very happy to remain the UK.

Another vote can only come about with the proposal of the British Prime Minister, so go figure.

Varik

There's been multiple suggestions for regional devolved parliaments/assemblies England, different cities and local authorities also have some different powers.

Most recently "English votes for English laws" passing in 2015, and the Scottish National Party being hypocrites over it. Which is a step towards English devolution.

banie01

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

The other 'nations' would need to first vote for independence, if they wanted to then join the EU they would be required to adopt the Euro.

Just on that point, the adoption of the euro is technically a requirement but not actually immediately or practicably enforceable.

It can be postponed artificially and indefinitely by deliberately managing to miss the convergence criteria as defined in the Maastricht treaty.

Adoption of the Euro(or not) isn't the barrier to EU membership that many think it is.

https://www.insee.fr/en/metadonnees/definition/c1348#:~:text=The%20four%20criteria%20are%20defined,the%20convergence%20of%20interest%20rates.

banie01

IAMAMORON wrote: »

All the Nuclear Submarines and their arsenal are harboured in Scotland.

It is not going to happen.

Never say never.
A huge amount of the USSR's nuclear capabilities and of their armed forces were based in Ukraine (aswell as other SSR's) all were dealt with in separation treaties.

No.

IAMAMORON

banie01 wrote: »

Never say never.
A huge amount of the USSR's nuclear capabilities and of their armed forces were based in Ukraine (aswell as other SSR's) all were dealt with in separation treaties.

Geographically there is no where else to put a nuclear submarine harbour in the UK.

I think there lies another reason why it will never happen.

Apart from Scottish readers of the Guardian ( not all of them either ) there is no one else who wants an independent Scotland, apart from a few Catholic housing schemes in Glasgow. The rest of the Scots aren't arsed.

Wales couldn't survive outside of the UK. The capital of northern wales is Liverpool, Stoke or Manchester. Stoke is a toilet, don't bother, trust me. Although people from Staffordshire are quite nice.

Jonybgud

The Welsh are a nice bunch of lads, they should just annex England some night they're not looking, job done. We could play them in a friendly for the six counties and be done with it.

Not that we would want them back now, too much clean up and they're smelly!

IAMAMORON

Jonybgud wrote: »

The Welsh are a nice bunch of lads, they should just annex England some night they're not looking, job done. We could play them in a friendly for the six counties and be done with it.

Not that we would want them back now, too much clean up and they're smelly!

Wales is like the 6 counties. It is not sustainable on its' own.

Ask the nice long term unemployed of Merthyr Tydfel.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

That won't happen either, sure they only voted against independence a few years ago.

Most people in Scotland are very happy to remain the UK.

Another vote can only come about with the proposal of the British Prime Minister, so go figure.

Lots of change since then. Last 18 polls in a row show support for independence. Last poll showed 58% support.


England leaving the EU and dragging Scotland with it was a game changer.

Jonybgud

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Wales is like the 6 counties. It is not sustainable on its' own.

Ask the nice long term unemployed of Merthyr Tydfel.

Sure there's a Mertyl Tit everywhere!

If they did manage to put a big padlock on the gate to Buck Pally and weld the door of No.10 shut for a bit, Boris would sh1t his pantaloons and dig up Maggie for advice.

We could send a couple of boats over to support the daffies, we could send Ursula a text, she might help too.

IAMAMORON

Jonybgud wrote: »

Sure there's a Mertyl Tit everywhere!

If they did manage to put a big padlock on the gate to Buck Pally and weld the door of No.10 shut for a bit, Boris would sh1t his pantaloons and dig up Maggie for advice.

We could send a couple of boats over to support the daffies, we could send Ursula a text, she might help too.

Interesting concept, thanks for sharing.

Help who exactly?

Guy:Incognito

IAMAMORON wrote: »

That won't happen either, sure they only voted against independence a few years ago.

Most people in Scotland are very happy to remain the UK.

Another vote can only come about with the proposal of the British Prime Minister, so go figure.

It's polling around 60% lately. Plus, one of the major points England had in its campaign for Scotland to vote no last time was that if Scotland left the UK it would take them out of the EU and they'd face years trying to get back in.

A lot has changed since Scotland was convinced to narrowly (relatively) vote against.



For all the bluster from a certain section of England about how the other nations are financially dependant on them and they'd never make it alone, they seems steadfastly against any of them leaving(bar NI, no one seems to give a **** about them).

You'd think the brexiteers would be fully behind a nation breaking away from a union and being independent.............

As for denying Scotland another referendum, thats only going to play into independence hands. Pretty soon London is going to look like Moscow or Beijing if they refuse the will of the people.

IAMAMORON

It is only supported in Glasgow. The Scots have no real interest. Don't believe the hype. The SNP are only too happy with the status quo. If you think how difficult Brexit was .. can you imagine the quagmire which Scottish independence would create. Defense, currency, The Border, health, policing etc etc etc. It's massive.





The irony is that your average separatist in Scotland is on the dole.

For Forks Sake

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It is only supported in Glasgow. The Scots have no real interest. Don't believe the hype. The SNP are only too happy with the status quo. If you think how difficult Brexit was .. can you imagine the quagmire which Scottish independence would create. Defense, currency, The Border, health, policing etc etc etc. It's massive.


The irony is that your average separatist in Scotland is on the dole.

The graph you've used is marked from 2014. One or two things have change in the interim.....

IAMAMORON

For Forks Sake wrote: »

The graph you've used is marked from 2014. One or two things have change in the interim.....

Like what exactly?

What has changed?

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Like what exactly?

What has changed?

About a 15% swing. But, I've a feeling you're being dense on purpose.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Smee_Again wrote: »

England can’t opt out it would have to expel the other nations from the Union.

Edited to add: and I doubt they could actually expel the other nations.

Isn't that what the other nations want?

IAMAMORON

Deleted User wrote: »

About a 15% swing. But, I've a feeling you're being dense on purpose.

I don't think it is appropriate to decide if I am not suiting your vernacular?

But assuming I am being " dense" because 55% of Scottish people think Scottish independence is not their bag is a bit much?

The facts are the facts. The British PM is the only person who can decide if another referendum is appropriate. Given that he does not need the SNP for the next 4 years, it certainly will not be happening then. Either way the SNP are a double bluff. It suits them to be campaigning for an independent Scotland as opposed to actually having to orchestrate one, which could take at least a decade.

As I said earlier both Wales and the 6 counties are not viable as stand alone nations. They are both heavily reliant on funding from the UK. Scotland could be self sufficient , but the reality is that most Scots know they would better off in the UK.

That does not suit your average council estate communist from Glasgow or Dundee, but in fairness they won't be paying for Scottish independence either. The majority of Scots know this and that is why they are happy to remain in the UK.

JasonStatham

Mulbert wrote: »

I often wonder why England don't just separate themselves from the rest of the UK. Is it even legally possible after all this time?

Can they 'opt out' of Ireland while they're at it.

Montage of Feck

How about a Jacobite uprising? There hasn't been one in an age.

daheff

IAMAMORON wrote: »

That won't happen either, sure they only voted against independence a few years ago.

Most people in Scotland are very happy to remain the UK.
.

Wouldn't be so sure about that. Many voted to stay in the UK on the basis that leaving would mean they would no longer be part of the EU....only to have England vote to leave the EU.

Another vote would be tight, but I would expect it to be pro independence/pro rejoining the EU........if there was another vote.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I don't think it is appropriate to decide if I am not suiting your vernacular?

But assuming I am being " dense" because 55% of Scottish people think Scottish independence is not their bag is a bit much?

Think now or thought back in 2014?

Spanish Eyes

I kind of think it boils down to whether Westminster will allow the OTHER parts of UK to have an Independence vote. See Scotland for further information.

NI has been thrown to the wolves but that was great for us here in ROI in the end, and them too despite the dour faces of the DUP. Lovely.

dxhound2005

There is no opt out clause in the 1707 Act of Union.

WHICH ARTICLES OF UNION and Act immediately above-written Her Majesty with advice and consent foresaid Statutes Enacts and Ordains to be and Continue in all time coming the sure and perpetuall foundation of ane compleat and intire Union of the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England.

In the above Her Majesty is Queen Anne.

Queen Anne had ruled the Kingdom of England, the Kingdom of Scotland, and the Kingdom of Ireland since 8 March 1702. She became monarch of the Kingdom of Great Britain after the political union of England and Scotland on 1 May 1707.

rossie1977

IAMAMORON wrote: »

That won't happen either, sure they only voted against independence a few years ago.

Most people in Scotland are very happy to remain the UK.

Another vote can only come about with the proposal of the British Prime Minister, so go figure.

It was 55% to 45% and huge changes have taken place in UK since..

Ireland rejected abortion too in 92 by far wider margin and then Savita Halappanavar death occurred to massively change public opinion.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is no opt out clause in the 1707 Act of Union.

How quaint.



There's already been a referendum that would have been respected. But the Tories made a VOW 24 hours before the referendum, which they pretty much ignored afterwards.



On one hand we have IAMMORON saying that nothing has changed and only 45% of the Scottish people want independence (actually he suggests a lot less, but lets stick to the referendum result). Since that referendum England has effectively taken Scotland out of the EU, which 2/3rds aren't best pleased with. Sturgeon is one of the most respected leaders in the UK. And the EU will almost certainly change their mind and say they'll allow them into the EU (Spain may need some convincing).



So, will the bolde Boris (who looks like a punch drunk sailor) deny Scotland an independence referendum that'll quickly make him look like a tinpot dictator? I guess... not for long.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's polling around 60% lately. Plus, one of the major points England had in its campaign for Scotland to vote no last time was that if Scotland left the UK it would take them out of the EU and they'd face years trying to get back in.

A lot has changed since Scotland was convinced to narrowly (relatively) vote against.



For all the cluster from a certain section of England about how the other nations are financially dependant on them and they'd never make it alone, they seems steadfastly against any of them leaving(bar NI, no one seems to give a **** about them).

You'd think the brexiteers would be fully behind a nation breaking away from a union and being independent.............

It was Scots telling Scots not to leave. If the English were given a vote on it Scotland would be an independent country now.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's already been a referendum that would have been respected. But the Tories made a VOW 24 hours before the referendum, which they pretty much ignored afterwards.

It was the leaders of all three parties, Labour, Liberals and Tories that made the vow.

Which despite numerous claims to the contrary, was not ignored.

IAMAMORON

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Think now or thought back in 2014?

It holds the same relevance.

As the balance of power stands in the UK, the Prime Minister is the person who holds all the aces. A new referendum can only be legally initiated with that offices' approval. So definitely not until after the next UK election at least - circa 2024/25. Compound that with the actual silent majority in Scotland who are not arsed, as was proven at the last referendum.

There is always going to be an attempt to radicalise separatists in working class Scotland. But the reality is that post Brexit Britain will see more money in the average pocket and their citizens should be actually benefiting economically from the changes. The working class of the UK will be better off.

To properly radicalise support behind a movement you need to convince voters that they might be better off. But the reality is that they will be better off. Scottish Independence is a bit like a prick tease, it is a dream as opposed to a viable future for Scotland. Most Scots know this and so don't bother supporting it - they will down the pub, the Aul Enemy and all that - but they won't when the ballots open, their pockets' won't let them.

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

Which despite numerous claims to the contrary, was not ignored.

Apologies, I see that it was agreed and implemented.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It holds the same relevance.

As the balance of power stands in the UK, the Prime Minister is the person who holds all the aces. A new referendum can only be legally initiated with that offices' approval. So definitely not until after the next UK election at least - circa 2024/25. Compound that with the actual silent majority in Scotland who are not arsed, as was proven at the last referendum.

There is always going to be an attempt to radicalise separatists in working class Scotland. But the reality is that post Brexit Britain will see more money in the average pocket and their citizens should be actually benefiting economically from the changes. The working class of the UK will be better off.

To properly radicalise support behind a movement you need to convince voters that they might be better off. But the reality is that they will be better off. Scottish Independence is a bit like a prick tease, it is a dream as opposed to a viable future for Scotland. Most Scots know this and so don't bother supporting it - they will down the pub, the Aul Enemy and all that - but they won't when the ballots open, their pockets' won't let them.

Pretty much all the polls up to the referendum were saying the No's would win. They did. All the recent polls (last 18) are saying a Yes for independence. Why are you more credible than the polls?

touts

England owns Wales and Scotland by right of conquest. They could just set them free again. The Scots would probably immediately bolt for the hills but the Welsh are totally domesticated and would keep hanging around pawing at the door until their English masters took pity on them and left them back in.

touts

touts wrote: »

England owns Wales and Scotland by right of conquest. They could just set them free again. The Scots would probably immediately bolt for the hills but the Welsh are totally domesticated and would keep hanging around pawing at the door until their English masters took pity on them and left them back in.

That's not quite true, it's simply that Wales has morphed into England due to traditionally English people buying homes there.

Zebra3

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It is only supported in Glasgow. The Scots have no real interest. Don't believe the hype. The SNP are only too happy with the status quo. If you think how difficult Brexit was .. can you imagine the quagmire which Scottish independence would create. Defense, currency, The Border, health, policing etc etc etc. It's massive.





The irony is that your average separatist in Scotland is on the dole.

No, it’s more a case of you having no understanding of population density.

the purple tin

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Geographically there is no where else to put a nuclear submarine harbour in the UK.

I think there lies another reason why it will never happen.

Apart from Scottish readers of the Guardian ( not all of them either ) there is no one else who wants an independent Scotland, apart from a few Catholic housing schemes in Glasgow. The rest of the Scots aren't arsed.

Wales couldn't survive outside of the UK. The capital of northern wales is Liverpool, Stoke or Manchester. Stoke is a toilet, don't bother, trust me. Although people from Staffordshire are quite nice.

45% of Scots voted for independence in 2014.

Polls show that if another referendum were to be held now, the majority would vote for independence..
https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2019/0805/1067017-scotland-independence/

Bit cynical

banie01 wrote: »

Just on that point, the adoption of the euro is technically a requirement but not actually immediately or practicably enforceable.

It can be postponed artificially and indefinitely by deliberately managing to miss the convergence criteria as defined in the Maastricht treaty.

Adoption of the Euro(or not) isn't the barrier to EU membership that many think it is.

https://www.insee.fr/en/metadonnees/definition/c1348#:~:text=The%20four%20criteria%20are%20defined,the%20convergence%20of%20interest%20rates.

This is true and it is indeed being successfully postponed indefinitely by a number of countries.

Airyfairy12

If England left there wouldnt be a UK anymore, considering the Monarch, Priminister & all heads of state reside in England and are from there. Also I dont think Wales would be able to sustain itself without England.

the purple tin

the purple tin wrote: »

45% of Scots voted for independence in 2014.

Polls show that if another referendum were to be held now, the majority would vote for independence..
https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2019/0805/1067017-scotland-independence/

Not once has he acknowledged these polls. They dont fit his world view so he just ignores them.

Charles Babbage

Smee_Again wrote: »

England can’t opt out it would have to expel the other nations from the Union.

Edited to add: and I doubt they could actually expel the other nations.

Of course they could. They could just vote to dissolve the UK or vote to have a referendum in England and let the rest stay in the UK

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

If England left there wouldnt be a UK anymore, considering the Monarch, Priminister & all heads of state reside in England and are from there. Also I dont think Wales would be able to sustain itself without England.

Lots of small countries maintain themselves. There's over 3 million people in Wales with a higher density than Ireland or Scotland. The problem is that not enough are Welsh.



QE11 is the Head of State of a load of countries, and could be for Scotland.

Airyfairy12

Deleted User wrote: »

Lots of small countries maintain themselves. There's over 3 million people in Wales with a higher density than Ireland or Scotland. The problem is that not enough are Welsh.



QE11 is the Head of State of a load of countries, and could be for Scotland.

Yes I know lots of small countries sustain themselves but Wales is heavily dependent on the UK.

Hamsterchops

Mulbert wrote: »

Can England just opt out of the Uk?
I often wonder why England don't just separate themselves from the rest of the UK. Is it even legally possible after all this time?

In reality England (and Wales) come as one unit. This, even though they have two separate identies within the UK. They share a soft border between them, but Wales is a Principality (not a country), so if (and when) Scotland and NI leave the Union, England & Wales will keep the lights on

England accounts for approx 84% of the UK in population terms, so it can't really leave the UK.