Connacht Team Talk Thread VI - Some like it TOH

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034416#Comment_124034416

Thats one way of looking at it. think the more variety and change/movement you have the more control you have and you control the timing etc. you have the advantage. slowing down the lineout helps opposition as well in reading what you are trying to do. it doesnt help you

ElisaAtWar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034422#Comment_124034422

Thats change/ movement and control mentioned in one sentence. That makes no sense to me.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034517#Comment_124034517

if you have less movement you are easier to read and its easier for the opposition to steal and or disrupt your ball. if you have movement you have more control over where ball is going and it can be harder for opposition to read and thwrefore you have more control. this is basic stuff. elisa. nothing anyone following rugby a lot and who watches rugby a lot should see that as making no sense.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034416#Comment_124034416

I'm sorry but this is probably the most incorrect thing I've ever read about rugby.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034599#Comment_124034599

That's a very 'diplomatic' way to phase it.

ElisaAtWar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034523#Comment_124034523

I know exactly what is said here but I inherently disagree. The belief is that because you don't move you are somehow at a disadvantage because the opposing team can clearly read your intentions. It's my belief that is not the case. Indeed if you were to look at many of our more successful lineouts, the majority of them have been without any change in the lineout structure. As said, when you have the throw in, you have the advantage of knowing where the throw will go. The opposition do not know this. Adding confusion doesn't help anybody.Your percentages have now gone from 75/25 to 50/50

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034250#Comment_124034250

The movement before the throw is rehearsed. This is what the lineout coach works on. The Hooker knows where the final jumper will be and he will be throwing to a invisible target in the air. A lot of hookers visualise a basketball backboard and try and hit that. this is done in hours of training. This is a co-ordinated movement and throw.

The opposition (and ourselves) spends hours studying what the opposition does and finds any tells or pervious moves as to what these guys could be doing.. This could be in initial setup or how they are moving… Job is to get your opposition jumper up in the same place as their target.

If we jump and the hooker misses his target that is either a miscommunication, bad timing or bad throw. What we had on Saturday is Sharks most of the time was getting their lifters and jumpers in the right place. We were getting easily read. this could come from Sharks Lineout Coach and Lineout leader doing their homework well.

Niall Murray and Dewald Senekal (Coach)were the masters of opposition throws in the season of 22/23… Niall had 19 opposition steals that season, next closest was Peter O'Mahony with 8. He called it the Poker Face’ lineout defence.

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/south-african-forwards-coach-to-bring-poker-face-lineout-defence-that-made-connacht-best-in-class-to-major-league-rugby

"“I spent as much time on my lineout defence as I did on my attack that pre-season so that we could walk into a lineout and with one word change systems for everyone to be on the same page.

“As time went on I wanted to go away from systems. Like in chess; you have your classic movements and can only do certain things.

“With a poker mindset of counting cards, you can analyse where an opposition win the ball and what their trends are.

“On top of that you play the bluffing game, showing them a specific hand and then doing something totally different.

“Within that I started to grow this whole mentality around changing pictures for your opposition and being really difficult to prepare against with multiple systems.

“Through the way I coach it, in time, we have been able to show different pictures in one game.”

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034983#Comment_124034983

Thanks for that. I was unaware that Senekal had left Benetton and is now in the US with the Free Jacks. I wonder did Connacht consider trying to get him back? Based on the progress we saw during his tenure, he seemed like an effective coach.

kita99

Watched the match between Edinburgh(19) v Ospreys(17), I (a bit) surprised that Ospreys was stronger than I have thouhgt. Connacht need more harder working this week especially in the set-piece. And is Prendergast available?

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124034946#Comment_124034946

Did you ever notice that you almost always have the opposite view to the large majority in this thread? Maybe you should think about that.

ElisaAtWar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035213#Comment_124035213

I have no issue with that eagle eye. Sometimes a different opinion isn't necessarily a bad opinion. Personally I feel my opinion has held up as it is ridiculed by others.

cson

New video of the stand on Conack's Facebook page, looking mighty.

Hopefully we'll be able to fill it for the rest of the season, some going from almost having the team fold to where we are now with Irish internationals and a solid pipeline of young lads coming through.

ElisaAtWar

That is a really good post Cowboy Ted. It is a super share to all boards rugby fans. However what you talk about is steals. As you say in your post Niall Murray under the coaching of Senekal stole more opposition lineouts during the 22/23 season. I remember it well. Connacht were feared that year when the opposition had a lineout.

So as Connacht we varied and varied and varied. And sticking with this concept we ran up and down the lineout changing positions and trying to confuse the issue for the opposition. And it was very successful because the opposition were getting somewhat confused with their throwing strategy. But that day is done. It's understood that the opposition is there to confuse the throw.

But owning the throw in to the lineout you are there to ignore that confusion. As an example you have a 5 player lineout against the opposition. Now the opposition can move this way, that way or whatever way. It's totally irrelevant. You have picked player 2 in the lineout and player 1 and player 3 are primed for the lift (in this example). So you execute. Now the opposition has many options here as it is not clear exactly the player targeted by the hooker. So even if they guess right they have less than a 50% chance because they can't throw everything into one possible option while Connacht can.

It's very much like a penalty in soccer. With a difference. The penalty taker will normally go left or right (yes they do go down the middle but now you are being petty) while the rugby lineout has many options as the team throwing into that lineout. Hence a totally static lineout removes the confusion for Connacht.

Obviously it's exactly the opposite when Connacht do not own the throw in. Here you try to confuse

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035245#Comment_124035245

The movement in the lineout is initiated by the throwing team. The other side only moves to counter those movements. If the throwing team doesn't move, the opposition simply put their best jumpers next to the primary targets and put them in the air. No movement is very easy to defend.

ShineyShiney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035240#Comment_124035240

There isn't anything wrong with being wrong from time to time Elisa. You certainly arn't right all the time. I am something of a contrarian myself but that does require a level of self awareness to balance it.

• edited to indicate self awareness :)

ShineyShiney

I'm never comfortable with games we should win. Especially away from home. Think we should be going full strength for this one.

Jump_In_Jack

but if a 5 man lineout gives you 2 jumpers, say 2 and 4, all the defence needs to do is throw a player up in front of 2 and 4, a single lifter for each will do and the defender only has to try to get a hand to the ball to deflect it.

A static lineout would be easy to defend.

FtD v2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035792#Comment_124035792

That's exactly it really - every team in the world uses deception and movement pre-throw to some extent, with the end goal of trying to get an uncontested catch.

There's a really good reason for that.

Don't get me wrong - I've thought on occasion we've (Ireland) over-complicated some of the movement (remember this being an issue around the time of RWC23) and it just creates more opportunities for things to go wrong, especially if you have inexperienced players slotting in (i.e. I think Tom Clarkson messed up two lineout lifts against Japan this November due to this), but generally teams are all doing it because it gives you an advantage, without a doubt.

realhorrorshow

EPCR squad:

LHP: Buckley, Dooley, Duggan

HK: de Buitléar, Heffernan, Victory

THP: Aungier, Barrett, Bealham, Illo

LK: Joyce, D Murray, N Murray, O'Connor

BR: Boyle, Flynn, Hurley-Langton, Jansen, McCormack, J Murphy, O'Brien, Prendergast

SH: Blade, M Devine, B Murphy, Reilly

OH: Carty, Ioane

CT: Aki, J Devine, Forde, Gavin, Hawkshaw, Walsh

B3: Bolton, Gilbert, Hansen, Jennings, Mullins, Naughton, Treacy, West

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035245#Comment_124035245

throwing to 2 in the lineout is what we call "jump - throw". The jumper jumps and then the thrower throws to the target. its essentially a competiton for speed between the attack and defense, and yes its a good way to be more guaranteed your own ball of you have a jumper at 2 with a good spring.

however jumping at 2 is the least effective attacking platform. Youre closer to the sideline for mauling. You have more of a seam for the defensive tail gunners to presure the 9 and you are have more openfield for defenses to blitz up on. Its also easier to defend as you put your best defensive jumper up at 2.

Taking at 4 is better, and 6 is best if possible. However obviously its more difficult. You dont "jump - throw" to 6, you "throw - jump" which means the timing has to be perfect between the hooker throwing the ball, the ball travelling longer in the air, and the jumper then catching at the apex. If this was static then its extremely easy to defend against as the back jumper simply waits for the throw and gets up in front of the 6 jumper. Movement allows for the defense not to know who the lifters are and where the jump will happen.

jumping at 4 is simply a halfway house between these two, but generally requires a "throw - jump" as well due to distance.

Static jumpers at 4 and 6 in a line out are extremely easy to defend.

edit: and yes, its very easy to over copm[pliacte things which ireland have certainly done in the recent past. The sight of Baird (i think it was) in the SA game (?) running into his front man and falling to the ground was as embarrassing a lineout move as ive seen in years.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035847#Comment_124035847

Looks like DTM will be out for a while, leaving us very short at hooker. Good chance Victory makes his debut against Black Lion. I'd like to see Max Flynn and John Devine get a shot too.

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035085#Comment_124035085

I say we didn't but it would be interesting… His stock has dropped a bit since we had him but I think he really like the Connacht lighter player dynamic and the aggressive nature of attacking the line out. Most teams wouldn't have the amount of good jumpers we have and the thoughts of a defensive lineout being an attacking threat would be a bit alien. The Murray Bros are probably one of the best lineout guys in Ireland, Snyman is incredible but is 3 stone heavier.

Connacht also have Josh and Cian… A lot of targets…

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035915#Comment_124035915

Strangely, in today's squad update it was announced that DTM and Hawkshaw are both now available for selection next week. Maybe the squad submission to the EPCR was some time ago.

Otherwise:

"Josh Ioane (groin) will be further assessed after his withdrawal in that game, and his availability is due to be determined.

Cian Prendergast (hamstring), Peter Dooley (hamstring), Shamus Hurley-Langton (shoulder), Oisin McCormack (hamstring) and Caolin Blade (achilles) are unavailable this weekend, and will be further assessed next week.

Mack Hansen (foot) will undergo surgery this week, and a timeline on his return to action will then be determined."

WallyGUFC

Just out of curiosity, one of the concept videos of the stadium before construction started showed an extended Main Stand down to both end lines and fully covered. Is this ever likely to actually happen?

https://www.connachtrugby.ie/dexcom-stadium/the-new-clan-stand/327/

Mr Hinx

No idea if they are committed to developing the town side. It’s mocked up in the video but that old stand needs knocking really and develop that side properly.

I suspect they don’t have the money and so nothing will be done. Shame really.

connachta

So smth like

Buck

Heff

Illo

Murray

Joyce

Muphy

Boyle

SOB

Murphy

Carty

Forde

Gavin

Bolton

Treacy

Naughton

DeBuitlear

Duggan

Aungier

Murray 2

Jansen

Devine

Gilbert

Jennings

If we wanna win this away one

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124036512#Comment_124036512

The stand on the far side is to be extended the lenght of the pitch.The newer extension part of that would be bigger as it wont have the corporate boxes and glass behind it.The terrace is to run from the pitch all the way up to the back of the stand.Its to be a standing terrace.

So fairly basic but badly needed and will finish off the stadium nicely for now.

Thats been my understanding based off vids and pics I've seen over the last 8 years or so.

Has something changed?

RonnieL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124036916#Comment_124036916

There's been no recent mention of that work - I've been asking around, and nobody has been able to tell me definitively, but I'm getting the sense there is no short term plan to actually implement that.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124036982#Comment_124036982

Thats very disappointing if true and id imagine there'd be more made about it

As far as I understood everything was on schedule with the redevelopment ie the North stand will be open as planned in January and then the final phase would begin some time after that?

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124035883#Comment_124035883

Great post…

Probably have to add that the lifters at 3 (especially) and 5 can give the game away very easily, if he is pointing to the 2 or 4 gives an easy read…

Having the Jumper with lifters move can a three man team can be deceptive…

Probably one of the more favoured moves is the 2 jumper to move back, leaving the 2 spot for the 4 jumper and front lifter to slide into. The original front lifter turns around to be the back lifter… That is 6 people to know their role and get timing right…