Covid 19 and Group Cycling

harringtonp

Looking for some anecodotal evidence on how much Covid 19 transmission occurs in the group cycling environment. There must be a few stories out there at this stage. I can understand people being reluctant to say much but any contribution here would be appreciated. This exercise is about gaining an understanding of what the risk points are, not finger pointing or recrimination. I'll start the ball rolling.

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In our club two Sundays ago there were 7 of us out on a group spin. One rider was Covid positive but was not aware at the time. He was completely asymptomatic on the day and riding strong. The day after (Monday) he felt body aches (over and above what you might normally expect after a Sunday club spin) and being conscientious got a test as quick as he could. A positive result came back on the Wednesday and contact tracing kicked into action. The tracer wasn't particularly interested in the outdoor cycling but rather focused on the coffee stop. We were originally scheduled to stop in a place with outdoor seating only but it was wet and cold so we stopped a little earlier in a garage with an indoor seating area. As masks were worn apart from being seated, the tracer focused on the seating arrangements.

There were 4 at one table and the case and 2 others at another. The 4 at the separate table were not deemed close contacts. The 2 at the same table were and were sent for testing. The person sitting beside the case tested positive (and also showed some symptoms in the days after) where as the person across the table from the case tested negative (and never showed any symtoms). The seated timespan was more than 10 minutes but probably not more than 15.

Of the other 4, one managed to get a test of his own accord and came back negative. Another tried but his GP wouldn't put him forward. As far as I know none of these 4 showed any symptoms.

From a research perspective it would have been interesting if all 6 were tested but it would appear that in this case the tracer was pretty spot on in terms of determining who to test and who not.

iwillhtfu

I'm curious where would the positive case have been situated in the group ride, to the front or rear of the bunch?

harringtonp

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I'm curious where would the positive case have been situated in the group ride, to the front or rear of the bunch?

Everywhere. There was both continual rolling and short side by side stints. Everyone in the group would have had stints beside, behind and in front of the case. There was 3.5 hours riding time altogether plus the stop time

Idleater

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I'm curious where would the positive case have been situated in the group ride, to the front or rear of the bunch?

"Change up"

I doubt any group over an hour or two wouldn't change any order at all.

iwillhtfu

harringtonp wrote: »

Everywhere. There was both continual rolling and short side by side stints. Everyone in the group but have had stints beside, behind and in front of the case

I guess it would depend on the rider as with most of the people who pass this on, Some folks are just more prone to coughing and spluttering. I'm still of the opinion rightly or wrongly that this thing is quite hard to catch unless direct contact hand to mouth.

harringtonp

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I guess it would depend on the rider as with most of the people who pass this on, Some folks are just more prone to coughing and spluttering. I'm still of the opinion rightly or wrongly that this thing is quite hard to catch unless direct contact hand to mouth.

The case wasn't coughing or spluttering at all. In a small group this size that would be picked up very quickly. I myself was the case across the table who tested negative so have a good grip on the dynamics of the spin that day.

iwillhtfu

harringtonp wrote: »

The case wasn't coughing or spluttering at all. In a small group this size that would be picked up very quickly. I myself was the case across the table who tested negative so have a good grip on the dynamics of the spin that day.

Probably reason as to why no one in the group picked it up but perhaps through conversation with the other positive case.

a148pro

Interesting outcomes, thanks for posting. You would think if people were panting or out of breath someone behind them would pick it up.

Was it a hard session?

There seems to be little logic to it. I had a mate recently who tested positive and no one else in his family (wife or kids) or people who had visited for dinner etc tested positive. He had some symptoms but suspected false positive. Hard to know. It may just be that some people will not spread it and others will not get it.

If I was in your group I would have gotten a private test btw. 99 euro for peace of mind. As things stand now none of you would be tested and you probably all would be told to self isolate for 14 days, or certainly you and the unlucky chap beside you.

cletus

There are studies (although not yet peer reviewed, I think) that suggest you are up to 20 times less likely to catch covid outdoors than indoors

CramCycle

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I guess it would depend on the rider as with most of the people who pass this on, Some folks are just more prone to coughing and spluttering. I'm still of the opinion rightly or wrongly that this thing is quite hard to catch unless direct contact hand to mouth.

Evidence indicates proximity and closed in area for sufficient time which fits in with the idea that its viral load has to reach a certain amount. While the times are made up, they do give something to work with. Interestingly, hands to mouth transmission is increasingly viewed as unlikely, as fomite transmission seems to be incredibly unlikely.

a148pro wrote: »

There seems to be little logic to it. I had a mate recently who tested positive and no one else in his family (wife or kids) or people who had visited for dinner etc tested positive. He had some symptoms but suspected false positive. Hard to know. It may just be that some people will not spread it and others will not get it.

Despite what some people seem to promote, a false negative is far more likely than a false positive, which if it did happen would actually not be the test itself but a failure at a key point in collection or transfer, it is simply not the issue some people would have you believe.

If I was in your group I would have gotten a private test btw. 99 euro for peace of mind. As things stand now none of you would be tested and you probably all would be told to self isolate for 14 days, or certainly you and the unlucky chap beside you.

If your a close contact you have to self isolate for 14 days regardless (or restrict your movements if a close contact who tests negative).

cletus wrote: »

There are studies (although not yet peer reviewed, I think) that suggest you are up to 20 times less likely to catch covid outdoors than indoors

I am surprised its only 20 times, I would have expected far higher differential but you also have to take into account the different scenarios but that's pretty much the thinking and acting by contact tracing.

Eamonnator

I have a 3 year old grand niece, who tested positive, after an outbreak in pre-school. She had no symptoms, her father tested positive, with mild symptoms. Her mother and three month old sister both tested negative and continued to test negative. they isolated, but not from each other.

harringtonp

a148pro wrote: »

Interesting outcomes, thanks for posting. You would think if people were panting or out of breath someone behind them would pick it up.

Was it a hard session?

No, I wouldn't describe it as hard, the intention was for it to be aerobic Z2 riding. Having said that I did remark afterwards that myself and a couple of the others guys would have had completely different spins even though we were in the same group with the same average. When the effort went beyond a certain level on the rises, I let the group open a gap and then rode back on after cresting (my HR maxed at 159 on spin, can hit 175/176 at times racing). Some of the others including the case were fresh and had a tendency to knuckle in on the drags but in general I wouldn't say anyone was gasping for breath for anything more than a short period of time. This could be a factor in transmission but I suspect it largely comes down to the seating arrangements

a148pro

I just figured if you're going to get it outside a mini peloton is where you will get it. Prolonged breathing in of someone else's air.

This thread is another reminder of how crap the 5k / county border rule is if you are exercising. Very dark times, people need exercise, the outdoors, beautiful scenery and safe social contact. Instead there'll be loads looping a 5k radius in urban areas.

CantGetNoSleep

Also very interested in hearing experiences with this. Group rides are about the only social interaction I've had outside of a very small group of friends all year. I've ridden in bigger groups when allowed, but in the second set of lockdowns I kept going with three or four the odd week, struggled for motivation in the bad weather otherwise.

Someone in my club in France tested positive early in the summer - no symptoms but had been tested for work purposes.

20 people in the group all told to isolate for two weeks (this was a 100km spin, no stops aside from a puncture or two, 5 mins waiting around before the beginning, about half the group would have had a beer waiting around at the end).

Didn't hear of any other positives from the group, also never heard who it was that actually tested positive (club secretary sent an email round, no one really asked on future spins)

CramCycle

a148pro wrote: »

I just figured if you're going to get it outside a mini peloton is where you will get it. Prolonged breathing in of someone else's air.

I would have thought once you were outside and moving you were about as safe as you are going to be, its once you stop and don't distance where the issues would arise, but that's just my take on it. Do clubs have big bunches out on club spins? My clubs small but even pre covid, they'd split groups up once it over 10 or 12.

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

20 people in the group all told to isolate for two weeks (this was a 100km spin, no stops aside from a puncture or two, 5 mins waiting around before the beginning, about half the group would have had a beer waiting around at the end).

Over here they would unlikely have been told to self isolate

Didn't hear of any other positives from the group, also never heard who it was that actually tested positive (club secretary sent an email round, no one really asked on future spins)

You wouldn't here either, just that you are a close contact.

dahat

Our club had some groups out during the county level restrictions but all under 10 riders with no stop that mean indoor dining. We were lucky that bank case came from any rider on each spin.

This thread is really interesting & reading with interest for future reference.

JohnnyKq

harringtonp wrote: »

No, I wouldn't describe it as hard, the intention was for it to be aerobic Z2 riding. Having said that I did remark afterwards that myself and a couple of the others guys would have had completely different spins even though we were in the same group with the same average. When the effort went beyond a certain level on the rises, I let the group open a gap and then rode back on after cresting (my HR maxed at 159 on spin, can hit 175/176 at times racing). Some of the others including the case were fresh and had a tendency to knuckle in on the drags but in general I wouldn't say anyone was gasping for breath for anything more than a short period of time. This could be a factor in transmission but I suspect it largely comes down to the seating arrangements

Thanks for the post.
For the positive Covid test cyclists did the HR in the following days spike abnormally or indicate the cyclists were fighting Covid?
Was the recover time after the cycle saying 4 days or anything abnormal that suggested the GPS watch can identify when someone has Covid?

Mercian Pro

Thanks harringtonp for the post and for sharing your first-hand experience. Our club spins continued as normal during any of the periods when there wasn't a 5km restriction. We kept the numbers to a max of 12 and there was generally a high turnout, possibly in part due to a lack of other opportunities for group social contact.
I was disappointed in the early days at the lack of any central advice on safe group cycling practices and, no doubt, this was partially due to the lack of research and knowledge of how the virus spread. Other international cycling bodies either recommended smaller groups or the use of face masks and one local club had worked out a group formation that kept everyone 2m apart. By the time the second wave arrived, aerosol transmission, particularly indoors, had been identified as the main means of transmission. Fortunately, many of our regular coffee stops were either closed or only doing takeaways so mostly we sat outside while eating and drinking. Garages and Centras took over from cafés as we fantasised about the scones and mini-breakfasts in Timeless.
Your experience I think bears out the research that indoor transmission is far more likely than outdoor. I haven't yet heard of any cases of outdoor cyclist to cyclist infection though it would probably be difficult to conclusively identify this. From observation, one outdoor risk is possibly when fixing a puncture with two or three club members crowded together trying to find that thorn or helping coax a reluctant tyre back on a rim!

Raymzor

Great thread. Lots following this one.

I saw this last night and thought it was worth posting here- https://www.bicycling.com/health-nutrition/a33634077/exercise-myocarditis-and-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR3SKSoR7mTF69o_bzwr7Z2Tr9bxo_-BNX3C_Nj6L5YgCyub3W56JucvHzk

Tenzor07

5k down to 2k again... more U turns by this government!


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/5km-exercise-limit-could-be-reduced-to-2km-says-eamon-ryan-39926460.html

cletus

Tenzor07 wrote: »

5k down to 2k again... more U turns by this government!


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/5km-exercise-limit-could-be-reduced-to-2km-says-eamon-ryan-39926460.html

Unless you posted the wrong link, that article says the limit *could* be reduced, not that it has been.

Also, at the risk of being pedantic, I don't think that constitutes a U turn

magicbastarder

Raymzor wrote: »

Great thread. Lots following this one.

I saw this last night and thought it was worth posting here- https://www.bicycling.com/health-nutrition/a33634077/exercise-myocarditis-and-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR3SKSoR7mTF69o_bzwr7Z2Tr9bxo_-BNX3C_Nj6L5YgCyub3W56JucvHzk

there's not really much evidence in that article bar a couple of anecdotes, unfortunately. i suspect research is still lacking on the topic, as there's no real way of predicting how someone will react to this thing, so you can't really say after that their mycarditis was how they'd have suffered anyway, exercise or no?

Eamonnator

Tenzor07 wrote: »

5k down to 2k again... more U turns by this government!


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/5km-exercise-limit-could-be-reduced-to-2km-says-eamon-ryan-39926460.html

Open the pubs!

Tenzor07

cletus wrote: »

Unless you posted the wrong link, that article says the limit *could* be reduced, not that it has been.

Also, at the risk of being pedantic, I don't think that constitutes a U turn

If people have been following what the politicians have been doing all though this crisis then usually little "leaks" like this have a way of becoming the latest rule..

Of course it's yet another u turn: https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-5km-limit-5109093-May2020/

Tenzor07

Eamonnator wrote: »

Open the pubs!

Off you go: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058096454

Peterx

Thanks for sharing OP.

I wonder if the no testing for the 4 at the other table is more to do with the lack of testing capacity, as opposed to any scientific evidence that cycling is "safe".

cletus

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If people have been following what the politicians have been doing all though this crisis then usually little "leaks" like this have a way of becoming the latest rule..

Of course it's yet another u turn: https://www.thejournal.ie/micheal-martin-5km-limit-5109093-May2020/

"Opposition Politician Opposes Government". Hardly surprising

Also, I was referring to moving from 5km to 2km as not a U-turn

magicbastarder

"On the travel restrictions, Martin said “there is no remaining serious justification for the 5 kilometre limit”."
note the use of 'remaining'. that was at the end of may; was the 5km limit still in effect at the time?

Tenzor07

magicbastarder wrote: »

"On the travel restrictions, Martin said “there is no remaining serious justification for the 5 kilometre limit”."
note the use of 'remaining'. that was at the end of may; was the 5km limit still in effect at the time?

was end of June/start of July when the 5k went to 20k... though could be wrong due to all the U turns....

at1withmyself

Tenzor07 wrote: »

was end of June/start of July when the 5k went to 20k... though could be wrong due to all the U turns....

It was the 8th of June when it went from 5km to anywhere in the county,the 20km was bypassed.

Not sure you fully understand u-turn. By and large they are reacting to an evolving situation. They have no precedent to leverage from so we're all learning as we go. Yes the government have made some mistakes but as I say we're all learning.

If everyone followed the guidelines then we would have not reached this point again.

iwillhtfu

I think ye might be getting a tad off topic folks

Mercian Pro

magicbastarder wrote: »

"On the travel restrictions, Martin said “there is no remaining serious justification for the 5 kilometre limit”."
note the use of 'remaining'. that was at the end of may; was the 5km limit still in effect at the time?

For the record (but subject to correction!):
13 March - 27 March: Initial measures
28 March - 4 May: Lockdown - 2km circle
5 May - 7 June: Phase 1 - 5km circle
8June - 28 June: Phase 2+ - 20km circle or County limit
28 June - 20 Sept: Freedom - Unlimited
21 Sept - 21 Oct: Level 3.5 - County limit
22 Oct - 30 Nov: Level 5 - 5km circle
1 Dec - 24 Dec: Level 3 - County limit
25 Dec -29 Dec: Level 5- - County limit
30 Dec - ??: Level 5 - 5km circle

eeeee

On group cycling during covid, once solo training restrictions lifted I was back training on track, we were limited to I think it was 15 in total at the start, then things eased more and raced away on track, did a few crits, 1 TT, things went to 15 for training and unlimited racing, so it was hilarious - there'd be 15 of us at a training session, then 15 mins after it finished 60 people at the track for racing that evening!
Touch wood Neither 1 nor anyone I trained or raced with in that time came down with covid. Did some road spins with a few friends and all ok too.
Of course there could have been asymptomatic cases, so who knows if I or anyone else was covid positive but asymptomatic. All outdoor, and in close proximity once the 2m distancing was lifted.

magicbastarder

i have always assumed that unless you're cycling downwind of someone, you're pretty much safe.

though does that mean if you're cycling at 30km/h with a 30km/h tailwind, you build up a massive bubble of covid saturated air?

eeeee

On track there's almost always a headwind somewhere, and did a lot of pursuit training inches from the person in front. Actually the nationals were on savage windy days, both, and we all escaped covid free as far as I know, unknowning asymptomatic cases not withstanding.
That said restrictions aside you couldn't pay me to cycle in a group right now given the case numbers at the moment.

harringtonp

Peterx wrote: »

Thanks for sharing OP.

I wonder if the no testing for the 4 at the other table is more to do with the lack of testing capacity, as opposed to any scientific evidence that cycling is "safe".

Possibly but the contract tracer speaking to me gave the impression there was plenty of slack in the system... of course things changed rapidly very soon after

The tracer speaking to the original case did go off and consult with their manager in relation to the cycling group and he came back with the indoors and same table criteria.

Macy0161

I think there's general misconception's around what is deemed a close contact, as well as testing capacity, coming into play. I know from my workplace that it's not what a lot seem to think anyway.

Pre-covid, I would've thought it was common (and still gross) to get caught by snot rockets/ coughs etc on a group ride. I think people are more conscious and conscientious since. I did go on spins when the restrictions allowed, although I did decide against going the one week the county restrictions were lifted before Christmas. Wicklow has had consistently low levels, so I weighed that up. My club ran a Dublin and a Wicklow spin, as we're on the border.

I personally think that CI/ Sport Ireland took quite a liberal view of what constitutes "training" and pods. I assume, like most clubs, it's generally the same people who turn up every week for the different speed club spins. However, the max of 15 could be me and 14 different random club members on a Saturday and a Sunday. Quite different from say a football or GAA club (my childrens training they were in the same 15, every session (if people didn't show they stayed in that pod)).

There's lots of activities that are individually "covid safe" - the point of the restrictions is to restrict people movements overall. Picking out individual activities misses the point. We've avoided some of our local walks the last few days of 5km restrictions, as we haven't been comfortable with the crowds clearly outside 5km limits.

CramCycle wrote: »

Interestingly, hands to mouth transmission is increasingly viewed as unlikely, as fomite transmission seems to be incredibly unlikely.

Last time I heard it discussed, admittedly about a month ago, the suggestion was circa 25% hand to mouth. So still significant.

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

I think there's general misconception's around what is deemed a close contact, as well as testing capacity, coming into play. I know from my workplace that it's not what a lot seem to think anyway.

This is certainly true, with several people declaring themselves close contacts in my place when they weren't, although, at the minute, with delays in contact tracing, I ignore this now.

I personally think that CI/ Sport Ireland took quite a liberal view of what constitutes "training" and pods. I assume, like most clubs, it's generally the same people who turn up every week for the different speed club spins. However, the max of 15 could be me and 14 different random club members on a Saturday and a Sunday. Quite different from say a football or GAA club (my childrens training they were in the same 15, every session (if people didn't show they stayed in that pod)).

We ran groups of 8, but I imagine we are your smaller neighbour. We have almost the same people week in, week out, so the pods were largely the same with seemingly good compliance logging with CI.

There's lots of activities that are individually "covid safe" - the point of the restrictions is to restrict people movements overall. Picking out individual activities misses the point. We've avoided some of our local walks the last few days of 5km restrictions, as we haven't been comfortable with the crowds clearly outside 5km limits.

100%

Last time I heard it discussed, admittedly about a month ago, the suggestion was circa 25% hand to mouth. So still significant.

I thought it was almost non existent, it is possible but over the year, I could only recall one case of fomite transmission. I would hypothesize though that it is reduced to improved/intensified hand washing and general hygiene procedures but also, simply isn't a main source of transmission. This said, good hygiene practices reduce the transfer of other contaminants, so has net benefits on the health care system overall.

Macy0161

CramCycle wrote: »

We ran groups of 8, but I imagine we are your smaller neighbour. We have almost the same people week in, week out, so the pods were largely the same with seemingly good compliance logging with CI.

I don't think we got close to 15. The only spin I got out on with the lifted restrictions there were three. But over the summer, it was generally the same group of up to 8. However, there was no advice given that it should be same people.

CramCycle wrote: »

I thought it was almost non existent, it is possible but over the year, I could only recall one case of fomite transmission. I would hypothesize though that it is reduced to improved/intensified hand washing and general hygiene procedures but also, simply isn't a main source of transmission. This said, good hygiene practices reduce the transfer of other contaminants, so has net benefits on the health care system overall.

My research on this amounts to hearing Luke O'Neill on Pat Kenny before Christmas!

I personally think the rates of general sickness indicate that hand hygiene and masks should be part of the "new normal" even after vaccines, along with more remote working.

AndrewJRenko

Macy0161 wrote: »

I personally think the rates of general sickness, hand hygiene and masks should be part of the "new normal" even after vaccines, along with more remote working.

I don't think there is anything near enough consideration into the long term impacts of WFH, the loss of all those water-cooler and lunch-table conversations, the provision of a safe environment for those for whom home isn't a particularly safe place. I'm seeing difficulties for new recruits in organisations over the past year, the ones who've never seen most of their peers in the flesh.

Macy0161

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't think there is anything near enough consideration into the long term impacts of WFH, the loss of all those water-cooler and lunch-table conversations, the provision of a safe environment for those for whom home isn't a particularly safe place. I'm seeing difficulties for new recruits in organisations over the past year, the ones who've never seen most of their peers in the flesh.

I wouldn't say 100% remote, but most don't need to be in the office more than a day or two a week. I've had new starts, and many new to tasks/ processes, that have been successfully trained 100% remotely.

My experience has been that those most against it are those highest/ furthest away from the actual work - the direct line managers have got over the initial problems (that were mainly technical).

CramCycle

I'd be very pro if it works, that it should be offered and encouraged. I understand there are obvious drawbacks but I hear plenty of tails of people with a better work life / balance, although I hear from others who haven't that at all, so it will be one of those things that depends on the situation. All i hope is that managers who like the idea of being present, don't force it on people who are achieving their goals in a timely fashion and wish to remain at home.

Regrettably my job is 70%+ hands on, so not much of a choice but I actually enjoy how quiet the building is.

eeeee

I absolutely hate wfh.
I live in a small 1 bed flat, that is now my studio, gym and workplace. No balcony, no outdoor space. That said I love my flat and am lucky to have it.
It's ruined leisure home time.
I also really miss being around people, I'm a social animal and much prefer to be around people.
I cannot wait to get back to a non wfh environment.
My commute used to piss me off sometimes, 20k into a headwind every morning but I even miss that now.
That said I haven't got kids, so I wasn't missing time with them or anything like that that a lot of people are glad of wfh for. And despite my grumbling I actually like my commute. Free bike time!

Horses for courses.

Macy0161

I don't think it's for everyone, but the feedback I've got is overwhelmingly positive. Feedback is 1, or 2, days a week is what people want. For me, it's given me massive time with my children I wouldn't have, even with technically working longer hours. I definitely wasn't the longest commute in time or distance (cross city commute times are often overlooked in these discussions).

I've staff on site, (volunteers for essential work), so I am still in occasionally. Whatever about the future, if physical distancing is no longer a thing, at present the workplace is nothing like it was this time last year. Sat in a canteen that's lined up like an exam hall isn't the same fun or social interaction it was on shared tables.

Anyway, back to a cycling context, I've never minded my turbo so I've never been so consistent in my training, even with some off plan zwifting. tbh, one of my goals is to probably do a bit less rather than more, as I got sucked into double days with a morning workout, evening social ride. NEAT is way down though.

AndrewJRenko

Macy0161 wrote: »

I don't think it's for everyone, but the feedback I've got is overwhelmingly positive. Feedback is 1, or 2, days a week is what people want. For me, it's given me massive time with my children I wouldn't have, even with technically working longer hours. I definitely wasn't the longest commute in time or distance (cross city commute times are often overlooked in these discussions).

I've staff on site, (volunteers for essential work), so I am still in occasionally. Whatever about the future, if physical distancing is no longer a thing, at present the workplace is nothing like it was this time last year. Sat in a canteen that's lined up like an exam hall isn't the same fun or social interaction it was on shared tables.

Anyway, back to a cycling context, I've never minded my turbo so I've never been so consistent in my training, even with some off plan zwifting. tbh, one of my goals is to probably do a bit less rather than more, as I got sucked into double days with a morning workout, evening social ride. NEAT is way down though.

For most people, the elimination of commuting time is very positive.

But that's not the only issue here. Just as Cram noted the importance of managers not restricting access to WFH based on their own personal preferences, it is very important that managers and organisations don't restricted access to working-from-work based on their own personal preferences or based on the 'most people' principle.

For a start, no organisation should be imposing WFH as mandatory. This is a land grab of personal space, taking over a room in a private home, generally for no recompense. No employee should be forced to reallocate a significant chunk of their personal space to their employer.

There are significant health and ergonomic issues here, around desk space, desk size, lighting, heating - and the costs of providing all of these being generally imposed on the employee.

Organisations should also tread carefully. The loss of social interaction with colleagues makes work harder to progress. It makes building relationships more difficult. This is very, very hard to measure, if not impossible to measure.

This jump to WFH because most people don't like commuting could well have signficant negative impacts in the long term.

Macy0161

I wouldn't say there will be any desire to make it mandatory. I would suggest it's more likely to be the opposite - as we've seen in Lockdown 2 versus March, with the number of "essential" office based workers multiplying. I guess it remains to be seen this time.

The reality is that most organisations will be tied to leases, so there will be no issue with those that want to be 100% office based.

I can only talk for my own organisation, and there has been no ill effects of process improvement since being remote. I don't think there's evidence either way as to the long term effects on things like that? Particularly in the context of those that have grown up with social media and online communications.

Seth Brundle

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For a start, no organisation should be imposing WFH as mandatory. This is a land grab of personal space, taking over a room in a private home, generally for no recompense. No employee should be forced to reallocate a significant chunk of their personal space to their employer.

My employer has a large production and admin facility (we deal in short shelf life goods). All admin are WFH to minimise the risk to the production staff. If production stops for a considerable length of time then we're all out of work.
Now whilst all admin staff are WFH, they have provided whatever is required to work safely/comfortably/etc from home but realistically they can't offer any other alternatives to the office currently.

emclau

Not related to cycling, but I found this very informative. Scary how transmissible the virus is indoors , without protection measures. Kind of explains the huge jump in infections we’re seeing after all the ‘anecdotal’ evidence of house parties over Christmas...

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

Large bottle small glass

emclau wrote: »

Not related to cycling, but I found this very informative. Scary how transmissible the virus is indoors , without protection measures. Kind of explains the huge jump in infections we’re seeing after all the ‘anecdotal’ evidence of house parties over Christmas...

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

There's a Irish architect on twitter screaming about focusing on ventilation in relation to allowing access to buildings on basis of adequate ventilation and not the activity inside the building

Macy0161

Is "air-sealed" still a thing in new builds?

cletus

Macy0161 wrote: »

Is "air-sealed" still a thing in new builds?

Yeah, but it refers to air not getting in where you don't want it, i.e. unwanted draughts around door and window seals etc. It should be paired with a ventilation system