Gardai should be removed from all 'traffic' work..

Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but here goes...


I'd be of the opinion that the Gardai should be removed from all vehicular traffic work (in other words, shouldn't be involved in the role of issuing tickets for speeding, phone use, parking, etc.).


Instead, GoSafe should be given a contract and their employees 'sworn in' in such a way that allows them to legally deal with the motorists of the country who fall foul of our traffic rules.


I know many people who have had a negative experience with Gardai at the roadside, and it puts them off going near the Gardai in general, going forward.


Although one individual Garda may be a prick at the side of the road, and the lad at the desk in the station could be lovely, the majority of people see the uniform as a catch-all, and after having a bad experience, will often take a natural dislike to the lad behind the desk, if they meet the roadside Garda, first.


I know people who have had bad experiences at the roadside, and as a result won't bother to ring the local station about an issue that has nothing to do with what their bad experience related to.


I reckon if a different organisation were dealing with the motor-aspect of policing, the general public might view the Gardai a tad more positively in general.


I realise my description here is ham-fisted at best, as I'm using a crappy phone keypad to write, but figured it worth throwing out to see what kind of other opinions there are on the subject. Apologies for any spelling errors.

ratracer

Rather than paying a private company a huge contract to park on the side of the road, I would prefer to see a much better funded and enhanced Roads Policing Unit to deal with errant motorists.

Atlantic Dawn

ANPR needs to be ramped up to capture untaxed and uninsured cars on the road, taking these off the road will reduce traffic and claims on the uninsured driver fund we all pay in to.

fritzelly

Why pay for a private company when its easy enough to install speed cameras at junctions to catch red light breakers, on "popular" speeding roads and so on

Other countries do it - move beyond the white line at traffic lights then say hello to a fine in the post

As for phone use, parking etc - there are very few "convictions" for that as its more a case of a garda been bothered/deciding to do something about it.

James Bond Junior

fritzelly wrote: »

Why pay for a private company when its easy enough to install speed cameras at junctions to catch red light breakers, on "popular" speeding roads and so on

Other countries do it - move beyond the white line at traffic lights then say hello to a fine in the post

As for phone use, parking etc - there are very few "convictions" for that as its more a case of a garda been bothered/deciding to do something about it.

Yup, happens where I live. The cameras are easy to see from a distance and you can't blame anyone else but yourself if caught. I've had 3 speeding fines and my wife in 12 months. €25 roughly per fine.

source

Privatising policing in any manner is a bad idea in my mind. Firstly, police have and use the power of discretion which employees working for a private company won't have the benefit of, that leads to a zero tolerance application of the legislation.

Having been a member of AGS I can attest to the negative guard 9 times out of 10 being a result of the driver being aggressive and defensive from the start of an interaction, which the guard then has to deal with. People don't like being told that they're wrong, and would much rather be the victim of an injustice than hold their hands up and accept responsibility for their action.

In my mind this is where the vast majority of these stories come from, now I'm not for one minute saying that there aren't members out there who are bad at their jobs, or who are arseholes. Those people exist, 100%. But I've also never met a person who said they deserved the fine they got for doing 80k in a 50k, holding their phone while driving, not wearing a seat belt, tax out etc etc etc.

YFlyer

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Yup, happens where I live. The cameras are easy to see from a distance and you can't blame anyone else but yourself if caught. I've had 3 speeding fines and my wife in 12 months. €25 roughly per fine.

At least the fines aren't too hefty.

magicbastarder

How much resourcing is put into this anyway? I assume a lot of it has been done with covid checkpoints in the last nine months anyway?

Fred Cryton

source wrote: »

Privatising policing in any manner is a bad idea in my mind. Firstly, police have and use the power of discretion which employees working for a private company won't have the benefit of, that leads to a zero tolerance application of the legislation.

.

And that's a bad thing how?

Fred Cryton

This is exactly where the private sector comes into its own. Getting things done.

WE should have privatized the vaccine roll out as well. Would have 24/7 vaccinations going on since 26th instead of relying on public sector sloths to come back from their hols.

Bigus

Fred Cryton wrote: »

And that's a bad thing how?

Zero tolerance is a disaster.

You’d end up like the U.K. and look how that Hate, is Turning out .

Look at the hate and frustration in U.K. dash cams , everybody angry as hell.

People getting fined by camera for letting an ambulance pass by slightly moving into a bus lane FFS. Having to appeal for weeks to get off.

Or the video I saw of 7 uniformed police Turning up to a man’s private residence to enforce parking regulations during the severest lockdown, all because everybody was working form home and he couldn’t park in the designated area as it was overflowing ?

Off you go to the U.K. if you want rules enforced by the book.

Over policing the rules , leads to cultural breakdown ,ask the East German rulers how that worked out, and the scars it left on their subjects.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but here goes...


I'd be of the opinion that the Gardai should be removed from all vehicular traffic work (in other words, shouldn't be involved in the role of issuing tickets for speeding, phone use, parking, etc.).


Instead, GoSafe should be given a contract and their employees 'sworn in' in such a way that allows them to legally deal with the motorists of the country who fall foul of our traffic rules.


I know many people who have had a negative experience with Gardai at the roadside, and it puts them off going near the Gardai in general, going forward.


Although one individual Garda may be a prick at the side of the road, and the lad at the desk in the station could be lovely, the majority of people see the uniform as a catch-all, and after having a bad experience, will often take a natural dislike to the lad behind the desk, if they meet the roadside Garda, first.


I know people who have had bad experiences at the roadside, and as a result won't bother to ring the local station about an issue that has nothing to do with what their bad experience related to.


I reckon if a different organisation were dealing with the motor-aspect of policing, the general public might view the Gardai a tad more positively in general.


I realise my description here is ham-fisted at best, as I'm using a crappy phone keypad to write, but figured it worth throwing out to see what kind of other opinions there are on the subject. Apologies for any spelling errors.

Can't let a bad experience put you off.

The lad at a desk could be horrible too.

My first major experience with a Garda was being told I needed to present evidence that I was hit by a car after a hit and run. Personally I thought my limp was enough evidence.

This didn't stop me talking to the Gardai after someone tried to stab me. I was glad to talk to them. Spoke to a lovely first responder to my 999 call and a horrible little scrote behind a desk the next day who told me it was a pity I wasn't stabbed so they could get a heavier sentence rather than lumping attempted stabbing with a 100 other crimes for the district court.

Anyway my point is that there are Gardai behind a desk that have no business being there too and people can't just allow one bad experience to taint their impression with the Gardai.

brinty

So people breaking the law and being correctly pulled over by AGS RPU are causing people not to interact with them in wider society.

I've heard it all now.

Don't break the law and AGS won't have to pull you over and do the job they're paid to do. They apply the rules of the road. Don't speed, don't break red lights, don't have your phone in your hand, don't tailgate other cars etc and most importantly don't be a p***k when you're pulled over for breaking the law. There's a reason you've been pulled over in the first place. You've acted unlawfully and have been correctly pulled over for it. These people are doing their jobs and keeping the roads safe for us all.

I've been pulled for these myself and accept my personal responsibility for it. Wasn't a p***k and complied with AGS each time. Accepted my points and paid the fines. It was my own fault.

If you're going to act unlawfully don't blame the people paid to enforce it when they do so.

Fred Cryton

Fred Cryton wrote: »

This is exactly where the private sector comes into its own. Getting things done.

WE should have privatized the vaccine roll out as well. Would have 24/7 vaccinations going on since 26th instead of relying on public sector sloths to come back from their hols.

Because private sector are completely faultless and have their employees best interests at heart. Plus they can also magic covid vaccines out of thin air.

The frontline public sector workers involved in covid work have been brilliant all year. They are human and can only deal with what they have, not what we and they wished they had.

magicbastarder

Bigus wrote: »

Zero tolerance is a disaster.

Well, we currently have the opposite. Red light breaking is comical at this point, parking on the footpath is seen as a human right...

If you want to see why Gardaí shouldn't be removed from traffic duties just look at the twitter feeds and see how many serious offences are detected from something as minor as speeding or some other minor rta offence.

Dempo1

Gosafe has and continues to be an unmitigated shambles, honestly how many can admit not have been flashed by other motorists before coming near these vans. To add to this, most I've seen are parked up in the most bizzare locations. I don't have figures to hand but this is costing in the tens of millions annually.

It can not figure out why with new technologies fixed speed camera systems not being installed. The RSA are great at throwing out statistics (most complete nonsense), but they surely have info on hotspots for speeding around the country. There's certainly no excuse not to have motorways monitored 24 hours.

Personally I think the Roads Policing Unit concept, whilst on paper seemed like a good idea, its really just turned into a revenue generating unit. Their Twitter feed is a disgrace, gleefully posting incidents of offences which at the time of posting remain Alleged, it's astonishing the sarcasm and the fact this is being tolerated. I get traffic accidents, delays, diversions but lately, not a day goes by about cars being siezed with a note of sarcasm attached for good measure.

The recent checkpoints on M50 were a joke. It was abundantly clear people were being waived on, not so much a a nice day or check on reasons for Journey, however they had their mobile app pointing and only pulled in cars when a warning showed for tax, insurance, NCT. Basically a stunt to delay 1000"s going to work whilst generating as many fines as possible.

On a final point, it's not common knowledge but this mobile app does not flag licensing issues, that requires additional checks, it also can not look up provisional or novice licenses if for example driver doesn't have it to hand. Fair enough it's still an offence not to have license on you but seems like a serious oversight by whomever designed this app or the RSA who can't figure out how to share the data.

Technology the answer but only if its proven to work.

Eggs For Dinner

ANPR all the way with roadside enforcement. No messing with 10 days to produce documents etc. Right of appeal to the courts if you want, but deal with it then and there

Victor

The current thinking appears to be that automated policing via the likes of red light cameras, bus lane, cameras, etc. is generally better than doing these offences via manned patrols, precisely because it removes discretion. If people want discretion, they can appeal the ticket or leave it go to court.

Otherwise, discretion can mean not prosecuting local personalities and doubling down on people that the individual garda just happens to not like.

As to who operates the camera an does the paperwork, I'm not convinced on arguments about who should do the work.

beauf

Bigus wrote: »

...

Over policing the rules , leads to cultural breakdown ,ask the East German rulers how that worked out, and the scars it left on their subjects.

That's a police state not zero tolerance.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Otherwise, discretion can mean not prosecuting local personalities and doubling down on people that the individual garda just happens to not like.

Or the person on the way to hospital, having a bad day, has been made redundant and has family, or has made a genuine mistake.

There are many reasons to use discretion and it is a Garda Power that should never be removed.

magicbastarder

Dohvolle wrote: »

Roads Policing is vital as a means to monitor the movement of known "travelling" criminals. You'd be amazed what a routine checkpoint can bring.

this is one of the reasons i cannot fathom people who flash at you to warn you of an upcoming checkpoint. do they not have a clue that the checkpoint may have an ulterior motive?
i guess it's just an 'honour among thieves' thing.

KaneToad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Or the person on the way to hospital, having a bad day, has been made redundant and has family, or has made a genuine mistake.

There are many reasons to use discretion and it is a Garda Power that should never be removed.

I disagree. Discretion leads to unfairness and, ironically, the discretionary application of said discretion.

Bigus

beauf wrote: »

That's a police state not zero tolerance.

Who decides ?

KaneToad

KaneToad wrote: »

I disagree. Discretion leads to unfairness and, ironically, the discretionary application of said discretion.

Disagree all you want. The opposite is every offence ticketed or summoned to court. Every car a day overdue tax seized. Treat every no licence on driver as being unlicensed and seize the car. Every public order incident prosecuted.

If that were to happen you'll be longing for the days of discretion.

magicbastarder

There is the point though that based on current levels of compliance, a zero tolerance system would snarl up the justice system, but that a zero tolerance system is precisely the cure for that. Because people would stop taking the piss.
e.g
https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-banned-motorists-driving-licences-surrendered-2020-5298982-Dec2020/?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

GT89

No I don't agree with privatising the police force however corrupt and inept they may be. Aren't there some places in the UK where they have the police tendered out to g4s?

Victor

foreign wrote: »

Or the person on the way to hospital, having a bad day, has been made redundant and has family, or has made a genuine mistake.

Common, made-up reasons used by narcissists and psychopaths.

Dempo1

Victor wrote: »

Common, made-up reasons used by narcissists and psychopaths.

Read this beauty, vomit enducing, particularly the bit we're she's a front line worker. More holes in this story than Swiss cheese

Journalist who put this sh*** together should consider a new career.

https://extra-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/extra.ie/2020/12/27/news/real-life/frontline-worker-gardai-car-in-tears/amp?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16094184615556&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fextra.ie%2F2020%2F12%2F27%2Fnews%2Freal-life%2Ffrontline-worker-gardai-car-in-tears

In Germany you have the Polizei and the Ordnungsamt.
Ordnungsamt will be the ones giving you fines for small stuff normally but Polizei can do that also. It leaves the Polizei free for the important task of proper Policing.

https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/ordnungsamt/

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In Germany you have the Polizei and the Ordnungsamt.
Ordnungsamt will be the ones giving you fines for small stuff normally but Polizei can do that also. It leaves the Polizei free for the important task of proper Policing.

https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/ordnungsamt/

That reads as them being traffic wardens and council enforcement officers.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Common, made-up reasons used by narcissists and psychopaths.

That's where experience comes in.

foreign

foreign wrote: »

That reads as them being traffic wardens and council enforcement officers.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnungsamt
That is a lot more responsibility than just being a Meter Maid.

magicbastarder

foreign wrote: »

Or the person on the way to hospital, having a bad day, has been made redundant and has family, or has made a genuine mistake.

'having a bad day' is not an excuse i like to think should be accepted. and 'genuine mistake' is a bit woolly.
we're talking about people operating machinery weighing somewhere between on ton and two and a half tons, getting away with operating it in a dangerous manner, often at speed.

Samuel T. Cogley

In theory I'm for privatising traffic enforcement. It could mostly be done passively without the need for Garda powers. Red light / Yellow Box and speed cameras for example. However the RPU, if anything should be beefed up doing what they do in the UK which is more targeted at preventing criminals moving about with the use on ANPR.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnungsamt
That is a lot more responsibility than just being a Meter Maid.

Nothing about roads policing.

The following tasks are often summarized in the regulatory office: [1] [2]

commercial office
noise protection
Funeral services
Prosecution of general administrative offenses
Initiation of the procedure for the placement of mentally ill people
Weaponry
Market system
Monitoring of stationary traffic
Immigration
Citizenships and name changes under public law
Registration office
Vehicle registration
Driver's license office
Homelessness
Animal welfare
In a broader sense, you can also

Ante-mortem and meat inspection
Official food control
fire Department

brinty

brinty wrote: »

So people breaking the law and being correctly pulled over by AGS RPU are causing people not to interact with them in wider society.

I've heard it all now.

I think you've managed to completely miss the point, and yes, my first hand experience is that it is the case.


But sure just dismiss it if you disagree. :rolleyes:

Samuel T. Cogley

Deleted User wrote: »

I know many people who have had a negative experience with Gardai at the roadside, and it puts them off going near the Gardai in general, going forward.

I note that in the cycling forum as an example, people get worked up when a motorist does something stupid. Generally the guards are pulling someone because of rank stupidity and are only human in regard to their reactions of someone putting people needlessly in danger.

Now is it possible to come across a Guard in a perpetual bad mood? Absolutely but they're relatively rare in my experience.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I note that in the cycling forum as an example, people get worked up when a motorist does something stupid. Generally the guards are pulling someone because of rank stupidity and are only human in regard to their reactions of someone putting people needlessly in danger.

Now is it possible to come across a Guard in a perpetual bad mood? Absolutely but they're relatively rare in my experience.

The thing is, many people might have a roadside experience were the Garda is fine, but the person being stopped is being done for using their phone (for example).

Doesn't matter that the person is caught bang to rights, a fine for using the phone "when he could have let me go with a warning" can often create a 'well fcuk them anyway' kind of attitude. Some people are stubborn like this, and will refuse any cooperation with Gardai.

I live in an area plagued with issues, and Gardai have many a time been around looking for information on things. Many people that would be in a position to help just shrug their shoulders and 'best of luck Garda'.

I've experienced it several times, with people that I, although i wouldn't be 'friends' with them, i'd be comfortable enough asking to them about it.


If you completely separated the Gardai from traffic stuff and trivial issues, it would help in this regard.


It's the same with the Council. Someone gets a parking ticket off the traffic warden and as a result the road sweeper is a prick. A lot of people seem to not be able to distinguish, and spite is more common than you'd think.

Witcher

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing is, many people might have a roadside experience were the Garda is fine, but the person being stopped is being done for using their phone (for example).

Doesn't matter that the person is caught bang to rights, a fine for using the phone "when he could have let me go with a warning" can often create a 'well fcuk them anyway' kind of attitude. Some people are stubborn like this, and will refuse any cooperation with Gardai.

I live in an area plagued with issues, and Gardai have many a time been around looking for information on things. Many people that would be in a position to help just shrug their shoulders and 'best of luck Garda'.

I've experienced it several times, with people that I, although i wouldn't be 'friends' with them, i'd be comfortable enough asking to them about it.


If you completely separated the Gardai from traffic stuff and trivial issues, it would help in this regard.


It's the same with the Council. Someone gets a parking ticket off the traffic warden and as a result the road sweeper is a prick. A lot of people seem to not be able to distinguish, and spite is more common than you'd think.

But that attitude of 'shruggng their shoulders' and refusing to give information isn't hurting the Gardai, it's hurting their neighbours and victims of crime. They're cutting their nose off to spite the Gardai when being honest the Gardai have no skin in the game anyway. It's not the Garda's house that got burgled or got assaulted. The incident just gets closed off, no witnesses. Off to the next one, meanwhile the injured party is at a loss.

It's not the job of the Gardai to appease and pander to idiots who can't understand that.

beauf

Witcher wrote: »

But that attitude of 'shruggng their shoulders' and refusing to give information isn't hurting the Gardai, it's hurting their neighbours and victims of crime. They're cutting their nose off to spite the Gardai when being honest the Gardai have no skin in the game anyway. It's not the Garda's house that got burgled or got assaulted. The incident just gets closed off, no witnesses. Off to the next one, meanwhile the injured party is at a loss.

It's not the job of the Gardai to appease and pander to idiots who can't understand that.

I think you're missing the point. People aren't uncooperative out of an imagined slight or spite. It's because they they lose belief there is any benefit to be gained in contacting them.

If you believe you won't be supported. Then you have to approach problems with that mindset.

If they were a company and I was asked to rate them on my experiences to date I would give them a 3 or 4 out 10 and thats being generous.

RandomViewer

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

ANPR needs to be ramped up to capture untaxed and uninsured cars on the road, taking these off the road will reduce traffic and claims on the uninsured driver fund we all pay in to.

It's the same people all the time ,sending fines to what in a lot of cases is a non existent name is just a waste of resources,
GoSafe is nothing more than a retirement home for old guards, sit on their arses in the back of a transit in nice handy spots ,usually close to a limit change, GoSafe would be the company anyone should be considering for anything unless you are in doughnut sales

RandomViewer

Dohvolle wrote: »

Do you go through a lot of voltarol carrying that huge chip on your shoulder? I know of no retired GS working with GoSafe. If there was, less of their cases would be getting thrown out of court.

I know the ex-guard that drives the one around here, and the one that did it before him, no chips just facts,

Witcher

beauf wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. People aren't uncooperative out of an imagined slight or spite. It's because they they lose belief there is any benefit to be gained in contacting them.

If you believe you won't be supported. Then you have to approach problems with that mindset.

If they were a company and I was asked to rate them on my experiences to date I would give them a 3 or 4 out 10 and thats being generous.

That's not the argument KKV made. You've a different argument entirely.

Doesn't matter that the person is caught bang to rights, a fine for using the phone "when he could have let me go with a warning" can often create a 'well fcuk them anyway' kind of attitude. Some people are stubborn like this, and will refuse any cooperation with Gardai.

I live in an area plagued with issues, and Gardai have many a time been around looking for information on things. Many people that would be in a position to help just shrug their shoulders and 'best of luck Garda'.

'The Gardai didn't let me off with a warning so I won't be helping them.' You're not helping the Gardai you're helping the victims of crime.

Dunfyy

Private companies should not issue tickets you get corruption involved
Tickets are for safety not profits

magicbastarder

and we've not seen corruption in the gardai before now?

Witcher

Witcher wrote: »

But that attitude of 'shruggng their shoulders' and refusing to give information isn't hurting the Gardai, it's hurting their neighbours and victims of crime. They're cutting their nose off to spite the Gardai when being honest the Gardai have no skin in the game anyway. It's not the Garda's house that got burgled or got assaulted. The incident just gets closed off, no witnesses. Off to the next one, meanwhile the injured party is at a loss.

It's not the job of the Gardai to appease and pander to idiots who can't understand that.

(this comment was longer than i anticipated, and is a bit ramble-y in parts )


I don't doubt that Gardai, being hindered in their progress, is a bad thing for the local community as a whole. People are, as a general rule of thumb, shortsighted.

However, the point still stands. For example, there was a fairly major newsworthy incident recently (national news) in my area. There were people that absolutely could have assisted, had they been bothered, but they have had bad experience with the Gardai (they're not a family of hardened criminals, so presumably from 'normal' interactions) but they opted to not answer the door when the gardai came around looking for assistance, and just ignored them, when they actually did have 'useful' information.

Is it the victim of the crime that's being hurt more than the Gardai? Yeah, of course. The Gardai likely don't care either way. Whether you help them or not, they're clocking off in two hours. But it's a resentment to the Gardai that gets bred, that doesn't prove useful.

My anecdotal experience is that this would be commonly at traffic stops. It's not statistical proof, of course.



Similar is the issue of Gardai not responding to calls. I live in an area where the Gardai will tell you over the phone they are busy with something but will get up to you shortly, only to never appear.

I, personally, rang the Gardai on a 999 call about 2 years back, and had to ring again 45 minutes later. Two hours later I still hadn't seen a Garda, so i rang again. Two hours after a 999 call i was told they'd be with me 'shortly'. I told them not to bother. I'm persistent, so i'd ring them again, anyway, but when I relayed this story to a neighbour of mine, she informed me the same had happened her before, so she just doesn't ring them anymore at all and has no interest in dealing with them.

I appreciate this is a bit of a step away in discussion to removal of Gardai from traffic work, but it's still demonstrable that poor interaction with Gardai will shadow people's future interactions (or lack thereof).

To many people, the Gardai are a single person. Much like if your first experience with a black person, or traveller, or doctor, etc. is negative, it makes you weary of future interactions as you're always on edge. If you rarely interact with the Gardai, but you are left with a sour taste in your mouth after initially having to deal with them, it doesn't help your attitude towards them going forward (not that I expect all Gardai to be amazing all the time).


But my post here is more just a 'thinking out loud' post. I just wanted to hear what others thought of the idea.

magicbastarder

well, there's absolutely no way we should be tying up the time of an actual garda on tasks that can be automated.

beauf

Witcher wrote: »

That's not the argument KKV made. You've a different argument entirely.



'The Gardai didn't let me off with a warning so I won't be helping them.' You're not helping the Gardai you're helping the victims of crime.

Not really. If someone got fined for using a phone but believed contacting the Authorities over some other issue would get a positive result for them, they would do it. Maybe not all the time but most of the time. But when people who haven't any skin in the game don't believe it's beneficial to contact the authorities I think theres systemic issues. Putting it down to grudges is too simplistic and looking through rose tinted glasses.

Victor

Dunfyy wrote: »

Private companies should not issue tickets you get corruption involved
Tickets are for safety not profits

Ahem https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/eight-garda%C3%AD-suspended-as-part-of-corruption-investigation-1.4403586

Dunfyy

Dunfyy wrote: »

Private companies should not issue tickets you get corruption involved
Tickets are for safety not profits

It's a known fact that there is corruption in the Gardai around tickets and no-one seems all that bothered.

But the mere idea of a private company doing it and all sorts of wild suggestions start flying around and suddenly people are extremely concerned what could happen