Is Ulster Scots a language?

Kermit.de.frog

Now, I don't know about anyone else and maybe I'm seeing things but look at that. I mean at least Irish has the characteristics of a distinct language. The Ulster Scots part looks like a distortion of English?

I'm open to persuasion.

Is it a distinct "language" worthy of the investment or an odd attempt to engineer differences from "the natives" by some unionists?

It looks, at best, like a dialect.

Hangdogroad

It's no more a language than Scouse or Geordie.

Insect Overlord

"A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy

Mad_maxx

Hangdogroad wrote: »

It's no more a language than Scouse or Geordie.

ah well it is , its not on a par with irish however , its some sort of variation of scots gaelic ?

certainly more of a language than the language travellers claim to speak

It looks like Jamaican patwah.

Every tin gon' be eyrie mon......

bocaman

Absolutely not. It only became a language when the Good Friday Agreement was signed. Suddenly Unionism had a culture which wasn't replica English.

Gregor Samsa

Mad_maxx wrote: »

ah well it is , its not on a par with irish however , its some sort of variation of scots gaelic ?

certainly more of a language than the language travellers claim to speak

Scots and Ulster Scots aren't related to Scots Gaelic at all (actually, there's no such thing as "Scots Gaelic", it's "Scottish Gaelic"). Scots is a Germanic language, very closely related to English. You can see that quite clearly from the sign in the OP. So "Scots" and "Scottish Gaelic" are two completely different languages, as far apart from each other as English and Irish. But Scots is related to English just as Scots Gaelic is related to Irish. Ulster Scots is the version of Scots spoken in Northern Ireland. Contrary to popular belief here on Boards, it was not magically made up after the GFA. Scots has been recognised as distinct for about 500 years. It is, however, true that Ulster (and Scotish) Unionists didn't care very much about it until very recent times, so its use as a political football is indeed recent and could be argued to be somewhat contrived.

The whole business of whether Scots and Ulster Scots are languages in their own right, dialects of English or just English spoken with a strong Ulster/Scottish accent is entirely wrapped up in politics. Truth is, accents, dialects and languages are just part of a continuum in how languages form, change and evolve, and there's always gong to be grey areas between them.

As for Shelta (the Irish Traveller language), here's the first few lines of the Our Father:

Our gathra, who cradgies in the manyak-norch,
We turry kerrath about your moniker.
Let's turry to the norch where your jeel cradgies,
And let your jeel shans get greydied nosher same as it is where you cradgie

You may scoff at it, but it's very clearly not something that an English speaker will understand, and it's very much more than just English spoken with a Traveller accent, as it has a large lexicon of it's own words (although the grammar is basically the same as English). As to whether that makes it a dialect of English or a language is again a political matter.

It should be noted that even though the likes of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian are all mostly mutually intelligible, it's not controversial that they're regarded as separate languages. The classification (or not) of languages is mostly political.

Your Face

Its bollocks but it helps keep the children playing nice together.

keano_afc

Nope. A made up dialect that somehow gets funding to be promoted.

bobbysands81

It’s an embarrassing made up pile of ****e.

KKKulture at its finest.

fonecrusher1

No.

Load of oul rubbish.

Fritzbox

How often was the Ulster-Scots language debated or raised as a topic in the 1921-1972 Stormont Government?

How often was the Ulster-Scots language mentioned in the Belfast Telegraph before the mid-1990s?

frozenfrozen

is't fook

McGinniesta

who cares?

bocaman

The people promoting Ulster Scotch are the same ones who object to the use of Irish, sickening.

whisky_galore

Thaars jooce loose aboot this hoose.

cj maxx

No , don't think it's a language.
More a dialect spelt phonecticly.
It's all about getting grant money and cultural status.

The J Stands for Jay

cj maxx wrote: »

No , don't think it's a language.
More a dialect spelt phonecticly.
It's all about getting grant money and cultural status.

It's so that themmuns don't get something usuns don't get.

Edgware

It was made up as a language as a tit for tap approach by Unionists in the Peace Process negotiations. They couldnt be seen to give the Nationalists something without getting a bit of the cake themselves

Hamsterchops

Leaving aside Ulster Scots for one moment, some of the accents up there are so strong as to make English unrecognisable, then again maybe I've heard them speaking Ulster Scots & I thought it was some kind of Highland bastardised English

Church on Tuesday

It's a total nonsense, redundant pandering to keep a certain section of society in the 6 Counties happy.

May as well have Geordie or Scouse as a distinct language in the North of England then so.

Zebra3

bocaman wrote: »

The people promoting Ulster Scotch are the same ones who object to the use of Irish, sickening.

It's nonsense being used to take funding from the Irish language.

Hamsterchops

Yeah, right, I mean we can't have that sort of carry-on now can we :rolleyes:

Both sides playing the other with the language card, both sides claiming cultural superiority over the other. Irish must have all the funding because it's the only genuine 'niche' language, isn't it? when in actual fact hardly anybody speaks it up there anyway ... never mind down here.

Ulster Scots & the Irish language have both been weaponised by both tribes in a never ending battle for the heart & soul of Northern Ireland.

Lucy8080

I want to see Ulster - Scot signage added to every sign post on this Island. I giggle a little everytime I see it and I suspect the P.U.L. community do too! Anything that makes us all smile a little more is okay with me.

riffmongous

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Yeah, right, I mean we can't have that sort of carry-on now can we :rolleyes:

Both sides playing the other with the language card, both sides claiming cultural superiority over the other. Irish must have all the funding because it's the only genuine 'niche' language, isn't it? when in actual fact hardly anybody speaks it up there anyway ... never mind down here.

Ulster Scots & the Irish language have both been weaponised by both tribes in a never ending battle for the heart & soul of Northern Ireland.

Well Irish is the only genuine language

jimmycrackcorm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

It's a total nonsense, redundant pandering to keep a certain section of society in the 6 Counties happy.

May as well have Geordie or Scouse as a distinct language in the North of England then so.

It's not even pandering, it's simply spite.

silliussoddius

riffmongous wrote: »

Well Irish is the only genuine language

Well given that gaidhlig has a very close link to gaelic, and that many of the original planters may have spoken it or were at least a couple generations removed from their ancestors who spoke it, you'd expect some kind of recognition of gaidhlig. The emphasis of Ulster Scotss seems to be back projecting modern tribalism to me.

An interesting video on Scots English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X5zX3yVoiQ

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/about-the-assembly/general-information/information-leaflets/ulster-scots/

Wirkan for yo

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Caa or email wi onie speirs
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Gae tae a comatee forgaither in the Pairlament Biggins or in yer hamelie airt
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Pey a veesit tae the Pairlament Biggins (Monandey til Frydey) for tae tak a keek at the Graund Haa an giftie shop

In English in case you can't read the above out phonetically.

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And As gaeilge


ag obair ar do shons

Má bhíonn tú ag iarraidh níos mó eolais a fháil amach faoi Thionól Thuaisceart Éireann?

Gabh isteach an láithreán gréasáin
www.niassembly.gov.uk
Cuir scairt orainn nó cuir ríomhphoist chugainn le do chuid ceisteanna
Amharc ar sheisiún iomlánach an Tionóil Dé Luain nó Dé Máirt
Tabhair cuairt ar chruinniú coiste sna Foirgnimh Pharlaiminte nó i do cheantar áitiúil féin
Gabh i dteagmháil le do CTR féin le turas ar an fhoirgneamh a shocrú
Tabhair cuairt ar Fhoirgnimh na Parlaiminte (Luan go hAoine) leis an Halla Mór agus an siopa féiríní a fheiceáil



NB. the giftie shop is closed for the duration

jmlad2020

More similar to cockney slang if you ask me. Or cling on. A funny language that makes me laugh.

Bob the Seducer

Imagine something said in a strong inner city Dublin accent...

Write it out phonetically...

"Aw he-orr lea-av ih ow" (or similar)

Claim it's a language...

Profit?

That's basically the game they're playing up North, of course there's a long and storied history up there of providing grants and funding to questionable groups, organisations, projects and people just to keep the associated 'community activists' quiet and out of trouble.

trashcan

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/about-the-assembly/general-information/information-leaflets/ulster-scots/

In English in case you can't read the above out phonetically.

Working for You

Interested in finding out more about the Northern Ireland Assembly?

Visit the website on
www.niassembly.gov.uk
Call or email with any queries
See the Assembly in plenary session on Monday or Tuesday
Attend a committee meeting in Parliament Buildings or in your local area
Contact your MLA to request a tour of the building
Visit Parliament Buildings (Monday to Friday) to view the Great Hall and gift shop




And As gaeilge


ag obair ar do shons

Má bhíonn tú ag iarraidh níos mó eolais a fháil amach faoi Thionól Thuaisceart Éireann?

Gabh isteach an láithreán gréasáin
www.niassembly.gov.uk
Cuir scairt orainn nó cuir ríomhphoist chugainn le do chuid ceisteanna
Amharc ar sheisiún iomlánach an Tionóil Dé Luain nó Dé Máirt
Tabhair cuairt ar chruinniú coiste sna Foirgnimh Pharlaiminte nó i do cheantar áitiúil féin
Gabh i dteagmháil le do CTR féin le turas ar an fhoirgneamh a shocrú
Tabhair cuairt ar Fhoirgnimh na Parlaiminte (Luan go hAoine) leis an Halla Mór agus an siopa féiríní a fheiceáil



NB. the giftie shop is closed for the duration

That sums up th difference between the two quite succinctly I think. A native English speaker would have no trouble getting the general gist of the Ulster Scots notice, whereas the Irish one, you genuinely would not have a clue.

More an accent than a language.

ted1

It’s like drunk English

Leg End Reject

[quote="bocaman;115692868
Suddenly Unionism had a culture which wasn't replica English.[/quote]

Is this a new language?

Snickers Man

The Snickers Man test for whether a mode of speech is a language or not: it's all down to the reaction a non-native speaker will encounter if they try to use it.

Example:
Take your average 21st century Dubliner, complete with a standard accent, somewhere between "Ag gerrup the yaard, ya bowsie" and "Gaying dane tane on the Dort". Of reasonable intelligence, he went to a decent public school and learned French until the Leaving.

On holiday in France, he wants to send some post cards home (because his aged parents don't do social media) and is looking for a post office. So he stops a local in the street and says: "Excusez-moi, Monsieur. Je cherche un Bureau de Poste. Savez-vous est-ce qu'il y'en a un pres d'ici?"

The Frenchman will immediately know that this guy is not a native speaker but assuming that he possesses a modicum of basic courtesy (not a given for a Frenchman, right enough) one might expect that he would reply: "Bien sur! Suivez ce-route ci et prenez le deuxieme tournee a gauche."
"Merci beaucoup, Monsieur"
"Ce n'est rien"

Now that's example of a separate language.

Now try the same experiment with the same Dub in Ballymena. He stops a local in the street and says "What about ye, hi? Ah'm fer the Post Office so y'am, but I dinnae ken the road. G'on show us, hi"

What do you reckon the reaction would be?
(Hint: don't try it)

That's an example of a pretentious "code switch". Separate language, my arse!

Peregrinus

trashcan wrote: »

That sums up th difference between the two quite succinctly I think. A native English speaker would have no trouble getting the general gist of the Ulster Scots notice, whereas the Irish one, you genuinely would not have a clue.

Yeah, but Irish and English are not just two distinct languages; they are from two wholly distinct language families. Two languages can be much closer to one another than Irish and English are, and still be two distinct languages. Two related languages being mutually intelligible is common; nobody suggests that this means that they can't be considered as two languages.

So "is it mutually intelligible with English?" is not a usefel test to determine whether something is a distinct language from English or not. Scots is (with a bit of effort) mutually intelligible with English, but has long been regarded as a distinct language.

To my mind, the more challenging question is not "is Ulster Scots a separate lanaguage from English?" but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but Irish and English are not just two distinct languages; they are from two wholly distinct language families. Two languages can be much closer to one another than Irish and English are, and still be two distinct languages. Two related languages being mutually intelligible is common; nobody suggests that this means that they can't be considered as two languages.

So "is it mutually intelligible with English?" is not a usefel test to determine whether something is a distinct language from English or not. Scots is (with a bit of effort) mutually intelligible with English, but has long been regarded as a distinct language.

To my mind, the more challenging question is not "is Ulster Scots a separate lanaguage from English?" but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

Indeed, I’ve personally witnessed an Italian person speaking Italian to a Spanish person speaking Spanish - admittedly slower than normal - and each understanding the other more or less.

StupidLikeAFox

"Get ahauld o yer LMF....."

Can't believe they are claiming this is a different language!

Larbre34

No, its English with a bit of made up nonsense that kids might include in a joke language they make up and use to communicate with some (they think) privacy.

Its been given a very false equivalence with Gaeilge on the basis that 'themmuns shouldn't have anything ussuns don't have', and at the end of the day is being promoted by the tradition of a 'protestant parliament for a protestant people', apartheid loving, gerrymandering b@stards.

Here endeth the definitive lesson on so-called Ulster Scots.

Even calling it a dialect is generous.

Canis Lupus

pidgin english

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

Look, for all our sakes, can we all agree that we can class ourselves as multilingual?

It looks great on a C.V. ! Throw in a "Cupla Focal".

If an interviewer doubts the C.V., (three languages ), we can sue the arse off them!

Mimon

Canis Lupus wrote: »

pidgin english

Nah. It has a separate lineage to English having branched off from modern English's ancestor a long time ago.

Unfortunately the DUP etc have turned it into a political weapon which makes many on here biased against it. Lots of pretty uneducated and ignorant comments in this thread.

fonecrusher1

Male Toilets
Leithris na bhFear
Och aye mens sh!tter's ofer ther pal
Kla'a puchpa''e' (Klingon)

pickarooney

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yeah, but Irish and English are not just two distinct languages; they are from two wholly distinct language families. Two languages can be much closer to one another than Irish and English are, and still be two distinct languages. Two related languages being mutually intelligible is common; nobody suggests that this means that they can't be considered as two languages.

So "is it mutually intelligible with English?" is not a usefel test to determine whether something is a distinct language from English or not. Scots is (with a bit of effort) mutually intelligible with English, but has long been regarded as a distinct language.

To my mind, the more challenging question is not "is Ulster Scots a separate lanaguage from English?" but "is Ulster Scots a separate language from Scots?"

You can't say 'nobody'. There's a lot of debate over whether Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian are different languages. Written Danish and Norwegian are functionally the same language. Urdu and Hindi are considered as one by many. Nobody really considers Dutch and Flemish as distinct yet within Flanders some dialects have limited mutual intelligibility. Even in Irish, Donegal and Munster varieties are dissimilar enough to be at times incomprehensible for a non-native.

There's invariably a political angle in distinguishing between accents, dialects and languages.

Snickers Man

I'm wary about believing every "anecdote" I hear concerning controversies like this, but is it true or can anyone confirm that the official Ulster Scots term for "special needs children" is Wee Dafties?

The J Stands for Jay

Snickers Man wrote: »

I'm wary about believing every "anecdote" I hear concerning controversies like this, but is it true or can anyone confirm that the official Ulster Scots term for "special needs children" is Wee Dafties?

I heard this one years ago, and I have a vague recollection of looking into it and it not being true.

FanadMan

There's an area near where I live here in Donegal. It's mostly Protestant farmers (ancestry from NI). The majority of them seem to speak some sort of version of Ulster Scots - cow is coo, now is noo etc. Hearing them talking among themselves is strange. But when they talk to you, a lot of the US disappears and it's normal English apart from a word or two.

Can anybody point to an official document written in Ulster Scots, I assume that the GFA was written in it? Anything else?

The J Stands for Jay

pickarooney wrote: »

Even in Irish, Donegal and Munster varieties are dissimilar enough to be at times incomprehensible for a non-native.

This is an accent thing. The language barrier is still there in English (flashback to acting as translator for a lad from Derry and a lad from Kerry at 5am at a Spanish music festival).

COVID

Mimon wrote: »

Nah. It has a separate lineage to English having branched off from modern English's ancestor a long time ago.

Unfortunately the DUP etc have turned it into a political weapon which makes many on here biased against it. Lots of pretty uneducated and ignorant comments in this thread.

A language being used as a political weapon, eh.
Who would've thunk it?