Annoying motor tax issue

SwordofLight

Hi all,

Relative in a bit of a pickle. They bought a car 5 months ago from a car sales garage and never received the log book, only a sales receipt. That means the car has been off the road because it can't be taxed.
They have been fobbed off by the garage for months.

My relative (who lives 3 hours drive from me) has a learning disability which makes it difficult for him to understand all of the complicated admin surrounding such issues.

I phoned the garage on his behalf and was informed the log book had been sent to the wrong address, and must be lost in the post, so to phone Shannon Dept of Transport. I figured chasing the garage to do it would only take another 6 months because it wouldn't be on their list of priorities :rolleyes:

So I eventually contacted the Motor Tax Office at the County Council who would only discuss the matter with my relative, even after I asked them to just give me general advice on the matter :rolleyes:. So, with dismay I forwarded the Motor Tax Offcier's details to my relative, who contacted them and to be fair, did manage to gather some information, but didn't address some of the concerns.

Apparently they have to send an email to the Dept of Transport, of which they weren't able to write down the email address because someone called to the door during the call. They have been told that they will owe €300 euro in back tax from the day they bought the car.
My relative has now asked me to pay it for them and send the email, they don't understand I can't do that for lots of reasons e.g. passwords, credit cards etc. They are naturally quite distressed during all of this with a serious dip in mental health at times.

To be honest this is a preposterous situation. With my work I can't spend a weekday on the other side of the country going around various motor tax offices and garages etc to sort it out. Any advice is very welcomed!

Ten Pin

The form for replacement VLC is on this page...

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/64a874-application-for-replacement-documents/

Check the form to see if arrears need to be paid to get the replacement cert.


A change of ownership wipes any arrears of tax due so consider that option.

Cerco

How did the garage know the log book went to wrong address?
They should have sent it to Motor Taxation in Shannon with the purchaser's details.
If they put down the wrong address for the purchaser then it is their problem to resolve.
They should at least pay the back tax as it to would seem to be their responsibility for the initial problem and the subsequent delay.

if your relative pays it then they should seek payment from car sales company.

Isambard

you can tax a car without having the taxbook, once it's transferred to the owners name, they can do it online (and possibly in the Motor Tax Office.

AutoGuru

If it was a reputable garage it should be able to do a change of ownership via rf100 or online with a valid upto date garage code. Clearly cowboys

mgbgt1978

First thing the OP needs to do is check if the Car actually changed ownership 5 months ago.
Easiest way is to enter the reg on the cornmarket insurance site (looking for a quote).

SwordofLight

Wow thanks for all the replies

Should I ring the garage again and ask them why they didn't just register it online with a garage code etc? Maybe they did, they just said the address they used was wrong, so it might be the case the new log book was then sent out to the wrong address and is sitting somewhere undelivered.

Cornmarket link really helpful, the purchase date matches. Which probably rules out claiming the car was bought later than it was in order to escape back tax. I wonder if there is a way to appeal that tax seeing as the car has not been used.

Isambard they can't tax it for the first time without the log book as far as I know, because they would need the online pin.

Cerco the garage would never agree to that and my relative certainly wouldn't want the hassle, they are really scared of 'causing a fuss'.

Del2005

SwordofLight wrote: »

Wow thanks for all the replies

Should I ring the garage again and ask them why they didn't just register it online with a garage code etc? Maybe they did, they just said the address they used was wrong, so it might be the case the new log book was then sent out to the wrong address and is sitting somewhere undelivered.

Cornmarket link really helpful, the purchase date matches. Which probably rules out claiming the car was bought later than it was in order to escape back tax. I wonder if there is a way to appeal that tax seeing as the car has not been used.

Isambard they can't tax it for the first time without the log book as far as I know, because they would need the online pin.

Cerco the garage would never agree to that and my relative certainly wouldn't want the hassle, they are really scared of 'causing a fuss'.

You can get the PIN resent by email once you are the registered owner, there is a link for lost PIN on the motor tax website. They don't need to go near the garage.

martyc5674

Del2005 wrote: »

You can get the PIN resent by email once you are the registered owner, there is a link for lost PIN on the motor tax website. They don't need to go near the garage.

Is the pin also the last 6 digits of the chassis number?
If so, that accompanied with the registration might just get you the registered address for the vehicle.

Edit: think this might only be the case for a new vehicle but worth a try. The last 6 digits of the registration cert is what you need- maybe there’s an old reg cert in the glove compartment??-(but it’s likely that gets changed @ change of ownership too!)

ted1

Complete this form: https://smartcpr.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Declaration-by-person-acquiring-motor-vehicle.pdf

Get the garage to stamp it, full it up, put today’s date on it and send it off to Shannon

bazz26

martyc5674 wrote: »

Is the pin also the last 6 digits of the chassis number?
If so, that accompanied with the registration might just get you the registered address for the vehicle.

Edit: think this might only be the case for a new vehicle but worth a try. The last 6 digits of the registration cert is what you need- maybe there’s an old reg cert in the glove compartment??-(but it’s likely that gets changed @ change of ownership too!)

That will only work for newly registered brand new or imported cars.

User1998

ted1 wrote: »

Complete this form: https://smartcpr.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Declaration-by-person-acquiring-motor-vehicle.pdf

Get the garage to stamp it, full it up, put today’s date on it and send it off to Shannon

This.

mgbgt1978

ted1 wrote: »

Complete this form: https://smartcpr.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Declaration-by-person-acquiring-motor-vehicle.pdf

Get the garage to stamp it, full it up, put today’s date on it and send it off to Shannon

You left out the "witnessed and stamped by a peace commissioner, etc. " bit.

mgbgt1978

OP, as you said the cornmarket site is showing a change of ownership at the time of purchase it's clear that the car was put in your relatives name.
Either the garage effed up with the address or the new VLC got lost in the post. I know which one I'd go for.
Best bet is just to apply for a replacement cert. It does mean that your relative will have to get the form stamped at his local Garda Station, but they're well used to this and will just stamp it without any hassle.
Probably be an idea to stick a note in with the form explaining that you think the address they have on file is slightly different and that is the cause of the original cert going missing. Otherwise they will just use the same address again.

edit: assuming the VLC has the correct name but wrong address, I know that you used to be able to change the address when taxing a car online. If that option still exists then simply tax the car, amend the address....and then apply for a replacement VLC.

Del2005

Was the car imported? If it was then the VLC won't be posted till the car is taxed using the last 6 digits of the VIN.

Dravokivich

Del2005 wrote: »

Was the car imported? If it was then the VLC won't be posted till the car is taxed using the last 6 digits of the VIN.

Would that not just be an individual importing it? The dealer would have needed to register it when selling, if they imported it. They aren't allowed to sell vehicles not registered in the country.

Del2005

Dravokivich wrote: »

Would that not just be an individual importing it? The dealer would have needed to register it when selling, if they imported it. They aren't allowed to sell vehicles not registered in the country.

Dealers have a TAN account with revenue so they don't have to register the vehicle when they import it. The vehicle is registered when the dealer sells it and the VLC is posted to the new owner when they tax it.

SwordofLight

Thanks a lot for the replies - so I've been able to have the pin or motor tax forwarded to their email address and hoping they will be able to retrieve it from email and send to me. The eircode wasn't recognised but the manual address seems to be.
So I guess I'll just log in and pay the back tax of €300. If I can, amend the address properly when there.
Then send off form RF111 (change of particulars) and RF134 (applic for replacement document plus €12).

I'm wondering if any of it can be done online.

Do they have any comeback with the backtax, given the car has been off the road? Maybe I should write a letter to the tax office but chances are they will give me the same cold response I got when enquiring by phone.
Also, when he bought the car, I would presume the cost of the registration book was in the fee - should I be asking the garage to refund him €12 to compensate for their error in getting a log book?

mgbgt1978

No need for the RF111 that I can see, assuming he can change the address online.

If it works out that he can Tax it (and change address) online that's probably the best you can hope for.
Then just apply for the replacement VLC with the RF134.
It's a pity to have to shell out for the back tax. But that seems to be the easiest way to get this sorted.

I'd say at this stage he hasn't a hope of getting a penny out of the garage for anything.

colm_mcm

Changing online only updates the tax renewal system and not the actual vehicle file.
Ie if you apply for a replacement certificate it will still get sent to the other address.

Tails142

Depending on the value of the car and whether having an extra two owners in the vehicle history will matter, I would just switch owner to clear the back tax, he could 'sell' it to you, you could decide it doesn't suit your needs after a few weeks, then sell the car back to him changing ownership along the way and voila no more back tax.

I don't think you'll get anywhere with a sob story because they've heard it all before and to be fair plenty of people would drive around in a car with no tax and bank on saying problem with log book/registration if they got stopped by the guards.

mgbgt1978

colm_mcm wrote: »

Changing online only updates the tax renewal system and not the actual vehicle file.
Ie if you apply for a replacement certificate it will still get sent to the other address.

So Colm, he's still caught with the address issue ?
A change of address on an RF111 requires the existing VLC to be provided at his local Motor Tax Office. And because it's in his name he cannot use an RF134 to 'take ownership' of the car.


Ever come across this in your experience ?

un5byh7sqpd2x0

colm_mcm wrote: »

Changing online only updates the tax renewal system and not the actual vehicle file.
Ie if you apply for a replacement certificate it will still get sent to the other address.

No, it actually does both. Change the address on motor tax website for a new registration and the VLC will go to the new address.

colm_mcm

If you change your address on motortax.ie you’re saying they just send a new VRC to that address?

This isn’t a new registration.

mgbgt1978

Dogg Munde wrote: »

No, it actually does both. Change the address on motor tax website for a new registration and the VLC will go to the new address.

When you say 'new registration' are you implying 1st time taxing a UK import, or simply the 1st time a new owner (of an existing Irish reg car) is taxing the car ?

un5byh7sqpd2x0

colm_mcm wrote: »

If you change your address on motortax.ie you’re saying they just send a new VRC to that address?

No, I’m specifically referring to a new registration. If it’s an existing registration, it still updates on the system but if you want an updated VLC you need to send in the old one.

colm_mcm

Doesn’t apply in this case. There’s a VRC issued and out there already.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

When you say 'new registration' are you implying 1st time taxing a UK import, or simply the 1st time a new owner (of an existing Irish reg car) is taxing the car ?

A new registration is one of two things. The first registration of a brand new car, or the first registration of an import. Those are the two types where paying the motor tax will trigger a new VLC being issued.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

colm_mcm wrote: »

Doesn’t apply in this case. There’s a VRC issued and out there already.

It does apply, there’s no need for the RF111 just the RF 134 which you can do after paying the tax and fixing the address on motortax.ie

mgbgt1978

Dogg Munde wrote: »

A new registration is one of two things. The first registration of a brand new car, or the first registration of an import. Those are the two types where paying the motor tax will trigger a new VLC being issued.

Many people here are aware of that.
However due to the fact that the OP mentioned the garage saying "the log book was sent to wrong address" a lot of people here would be aware that a 'log book' would not be issued until the OP's relative actually taxed the car for the 1st time.
So, in this instance a 'new registration' is only one thing. A change of ownership which is not technically a new registration
As for your last post. Pretty much an echo of post #19 :rolleyes:

un5byh7sqpd2x0

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

As for your last post. Pretty much an echo of post #19 :rolleyes:

Indeed but it's a correction of the misinformation in Post # 20 :P:pac::rolleyes:

I had this problem. Never met so many checkpoints in my life as I did when I had no tax for 2 months or so trying to sort this out.

What I had to do was get the form signed (declaration by person acquiring a motor vehicle, the local tax office just call it an 'acquiring' form - if you ring your local council they'll send it to you).

You then have to bring it to a 'real' dealership (a franchised one - i went to my local Ford, as it was a Ford I was dealing with). They told me to fill the VIN in on the form before i brought it into them, they checked the VIN matched with the car, and they stamped it (€20 for doing so).

Thankfully I have a solicitor I've used a couple of times, so they signed and stamped the form for me, for free. I've no idea what this would otherwise cost you.

Then it had to be sent off to Shannon (I sent it registered, as i wasn't taking chances at that point!) and I got the logbook a week later.


Before I did any of that, though, I rang the local Garda station with the reg - just to make sure it hadn't been declared stolen or such.

Then once I had the log book, I became the new owner. Then through a series of incredible family situations that are beyond belief and too lengthy to explain, but definitely occurred in real life, my brother owned it and taxed it.

mgbgt1978

Dogg Munde wrote: »

Indeed but it's a correction of the misinformation in Post # 20 :P:pac::rolleyes:

It seems you jumped in here assuming that this was a 1st time reg in Ireland.
It seems you were mistaken :P:rolleyes::cool:.
Post #20 was correct in this case.

Oh, also, there are two different versions of the form for acquiring a motor vehicle. One of them gets accepted, the other doesnt. I know one was posted here already, but it was upside down so i didn't study it.

This is the only form that they would accept (this is a scan of the one the council gave me)


https://postimg.cc/hJqTDjmb

un5byh7sqpd2x0

No need for any of that, the owner is correct, the VLC is missing / lost in the post / vehicle registered to the wrong address. They have access to motortax.ie.

At the risk of repeating myself, sorry mgbgt1978. :rolleyes: The OP just needs to tax the car on motortax.ie, correcting the address while doing so if it's incorrect. Then just fill in an RF134 to get the replacement VLC.

AndrewJRenko

SwordofLight wrote: »

Hi all,

Relative in a bit of a pickle. They bought a car 5 months ago from a car sales garage and never received the log book, only a sales receipt. That means the car has been off the road because it can't be taxed.
They have been fobbed off by the garage for months.

My relative (who lives 3 hours drive from me) has a learning disability which makes it difficult for him to understand all of the complicated admin surrounding such issues.

Are you confident that your relative is competent to manage all the other duties of car ownership, keeping it serviced, taxed, insured, NCT'd? Will they know what to do in case of breakdown or a collision?

un5byh7sqpd2x0

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

It seems you jumped in here assuming that this was a 1st time reg in Ireland.
It seems you were mistaken :P:rolleyes::cool:.
Post #20 was correct in this case.

Post 20 is not correct. I didn't assume it was a first reg anywhere, please point out where I did.

Post # 20 states "Changing online only updates the tax renewal system and not the actual vehicle file." - this is incorrect :rolleyes:

Dogg Munde

Dogg Munde wrote: »

The OP just needs to tax the car on motortax.ie, correcting the address while doing so if it's incorrect. Then just fill in an RF134 to get the replacement VLC.

You can't tax a car you don't own.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't tax a car you don't own.

But they do own it. Read back the OPs posts - post 18 in particular. Jesus wept.

mgbgt1978

Dogg Munde wrote: »

Post 20 is not correct. I didn't assume it was a first reg anywhere, please point out where I did.

Ah stop. your 1st post states;
Change the address on motor tax website for a new registration and the VLC will go to the new address
Unless you were hoping to help some poor soul on another forum, why would you use this wording ?

un5byh7sqpd2x0

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Ah stop. your 1st post states;
Change the address on motor tax website for a new registration and the VLC will go to the new address
Unless you were hoping to help some poor soul on another forum, why would you use this wording ?

Because it proves the bloody point that changing your address on motortax.ie updates the vehicle file. Are you intentionally being obtuse or just unintentionally thick?

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can't tax a car you don't own.

You can, I don’t own my car but I tax it. You can’t insure a car you don’t own.

mgbgt1978

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Ah stop. your 1st post states;
Change the address on motor tax website for a new registration and the VLC will go to the new address
Unless you were hoping to help some poor soul on another forum, why would you use this wording ?

Dogg Munde wrote: »

Because it proves the bloody point that changing your address on motortax.ie updates the vehicle file. Are you intentionally being obtuse or just unintentionally thick?

But the VLC will not go the new address....which is all the OP wanted to begin with.

galwaytt

ted1 wrote: »

You can, I don’t own my car but I tax it. You can’t insure a car you don’t own.

Well, you can. But why would you ?

Ins Co's don't ask if you're the owner, nor seek proof.

And the name on the logbook isn't the legal owner btw.....

un5byh7sqpd2x0

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

But the VLC will not go the new address....which is all the OP wanted to begin with.

A VLC has already been issued somewhere. It got lost in the post or went to the wrong address or something. As has been mentioned several times. No other VLC will issue at all unless the OP fills in the replacement form RF134 as has already been mentioned several times.

Several times. :pac: It has to be unintentional in your case at this stage. I give up. My initial post in this thread was to colm, hence I quoted him, correcting his post and offering proof of same. It wasn’t directed at the OP.

ted1

galwaytt wrote: »

Well, you can. But why would you ?

Ins Co's don't ask if you're the owner, nor seek proof.

And the name on the logbook isn't the legal owner btw.....

The name on the logbook is the owner. Just cause theirs finance in a car or a charge on a car doesn’t mean you don’t own it.
I don’t Own the car I drive. I’m the main driver so jay the tax.
Insurance companies do ask.

jimmycrackcorm

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't tax a car you don't own.

I must have imagined doing my ex's and her father's cars tax online for them.

An Ri rua

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can't tax a car you don't own.

You shouldn't you mean?

You can of course. I used to tax my parents car with my debit card. Does it advise you not to?

An Ri rua

An Ri rua wrote: »

You shouldn't you mean?

You can of course. I used to tax my parents car with my debit card. Does it advise you not to?

In that instance, you have the PIN though. OP doesn't have the PIN and so has to go to the tax office. I've never been able to tax a car I didn't own down there.


Maybe Louth is just more thorough (doubtful though; Louth council are beyond incompetent in general).

Wishbone Ash

Deleted User wrote: »

...Thankfully I have a solicitor I've used a couple of times, so they signed and stamped the form for me, for free. I've no idea what this would otherwise cost you.....

It's not expensive. I have to do it with work forms now and again (HSE) and the local solicitor charges a tenner.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In that instance, you have the PIN though. OP doesn't have the PIN and so has to go to the tax office. I've never been able to tax a car I didn't own down there.

The OP _does_ have the pin.