Worth doing the green cert?

Mickey_James

Is it worth doing the green cert if you're not under 35?

I'm 30, working off farm and might go doing a bit in 3 or 4 years.

If I do it in the next couple of years is there any benefits?

From what I can see the benefits are small. The biggest benefit would be if you're inheriting valuable farm. But you're exempt from capital gains if the farm is worth something like 3m or less because for farms CGT is based on 10% of the value and first 300k or so is exempt.


I suppose the grants would be a benefit too but I don't think there's any chance of me having my own stock or land rented in the next few years. Anyone have any suggestions on what the best thing to do is?

893bet

Capital gains is nothing to do with it as far as I know.

You will get a lower stamp duty at transfer that can be worth it.

You will get the young trained farmer payment every year for up to 5 years also.

Mickey_James

893bet wrote: »

Capital gains is nothing to do with it as far as I know.

You will get a lower stamp duty at transfer that can be worth it.

You will get the young trained farmer payment every year for up to 5 years also.

Can I get the grant even if I don't have stock? My da has stock alright.

Do I get the payment for 5 years once I start getting it or do you only get it up to age 35? So like if I applied age 34, would I get it for 1 year or 5?

893bet

Mickey_James wrote: »

Can I get the grant even if I don't have stock? My da has stock alright.

Do I get the payment for 5 years once I start getting it or do you only get it up to age 35? So like if I applied age 34, would I get it for 1 year or 5?

It’s under 35 for the tamp due reduction

For the young farmers payment it’s under 40 for a max of 5 years. So if you applied for that at 37 you would only have A max of 3 years. Or at 36 you would have 4.

You need to be farming though! Or at least applying for the BPS.

When does your dad intend to transfer over etc. Does it make sense to e.g have you am off farm job on the higher tax bracket so farm profits be now taxed at higher rate. May be a partnership be better. You prob need to do a lot of reading and then pay for a small bit of advice.

But def do the cert. it’s cheap. It’s easy. And it will pay for itself at some stage.

Mickey_James

893bet wrote: »

It’s under 35 for the tamp due reduction

For the young farmers payment it’s under 40 for a max of 5 years. So if you applied for that at 37 you would only have A max of 3 years. Or at 36 you would have 4.

You need to be farming though! Or at least applying for the BPS.

When does your dad intend to transfer over etc. Does it make sense to e.g have you am off farm job on the higher tax bracket so farm profits be now taxed at higher rate. May be a partnership be better. You prob need to do a lot of reading and then pay for a small bit of advice.

But def do the cert. it’s cheap. It’s easy. And it will pay for itself at some stage.

Where would you suggest I start reading?

Yeah I don't envisage transfer being honest

893bet

Mickey_James wrote: »

Where would you suggest I start reading?

Yeah I don't envisage transfer being honest

Just google on different farm structures, partnerships, succession planning etc, tax efficiency.

But if you don’t envision transfer then.....

Mickey_James

893bet wrote: »

Just google on different farm structures, partnerships, succession planning etc, tax efficiency.

But if you don’t envision transfer then.....

I don't envision transfer - I have an off farm job and my da would lose his income then.

Grueller

Look up consanguity relief. Reduces stamp duty to 1%. You need to be a trained farmer, spend 50% working time on farm and there is now no age limit to it. It used be only under 35s eligible but iirc that is gone now.

Earnshaw

893bet wrote: »

For the young farmers payment it’s under 40 for a max of 5 years. So if you applied for that at 37 you would only have A max of 3 years. Or at 36 you would have 4.

How much is the Young Farmer Payment per year?

bogman_bass

Mickey_James wrote: »

I don't envision transfer - I have an off farm job and my da would lose his income then.

So you want to be paid to be a young farmer but not actively farm?
Doesn’t work like that

Mickey_James

bogman_bass wrote: »

So you want to be paid to be a young farmer but not actively farm?
Doesn’t work like that

Well although I'm not officially a farmer I still farm from time to time now!

Tig98

So the farm income is included in your other income and they're essentially classed together for tax purposes?

What a major turn off. Im currently in college but intended to take over the farm in about ten years when my career is steady. If all my incomes are taxed in the one bracket then im not sure how justifiable farming would be. It was never going to be a big money spinner either way like

Mooooo

Talk to your father and an accountant or advisor

Mickey_James

Tig98 wrote: »

So the farm income is included in your other income and they're essentially classed together for tax purposes?

What a major turn off. Im currently in college but intended to take over the farm in about ten years when my career is steady. If all my incomes are taxed in the one bracket then im not sure how justifiable farming would be. It was never going to be a big money spinner either way like

That's something I just learned too. Yeah that seems very offputting.

Farming is hard enough without having to be taxed at the higher bracket.

Mooooo

Lads, ye have a bit to learn! If making money in this world the tax man is gonna take a share of it. Ye should be doing business plans and see how it'll affect yer whole situation

Mooooo

Mooooo wrote: »

Lads, ye have a bit to learn! If making money in this world the tax man is gonna take a share of it. Ye should be doing business plans and see how it'll affect yer whole situation

First question my tax advisor asked me when I took over my father's farm, are you in the young farmer scheme? Nope. Why? Because so many of them just saw the money and are now buying things they don't want or giving it to the tax man.

Mickey_James

Mooooo wrote: »

Lads, ye have a bit to learn! If making money in this world the tax man is gonna take a share of it. Ye should be doing business plans and see how it'll affect yer whole situation

Sure there's absolutely 0 incentive for me to take over the farm because my da is a full time farmer so any money made is on low tax bracket.

Profitability of the farm doesn't change with transfer so it makes 0 sense to take the money me da makes and transfer it to me to pay higher tax on.

Earnshaw

Earnshaw wrote: »

How much is the Young Farmer Payment per year?

Anyone know the answer to this?

893bet

Earnshaw wrote: »

Anyone know the answer to this?

25 percent of national average payment per hectere. If you don’t have entitlements you can apply to national reserve.

893bet

Mickey_James wrote: »

Sure there's absolutely 0 incentive for me to take over the farm because my da is a full time farmer so any money made is on low tax bracket.

Profitability of the farm doesn't change with transfer so it makes 0 sense to take the money me da makes and transfer it to me to pay higher tax on.

That is the catch 22. And one of the reasons I left transfer till my father was 80. Fair deal forced the hand eventually.

I pay a salary to my father now as this is a farm expense so hopefully that will keep tax bill to a minimum. Leasing would be more profitable but difficult due to fragmented nature and the fact that both our houses are in the farm yard.

It will be interesting when he passes on.

What type of farm is it?

Earnshaw

893bet wrote: »

25 percent of national average payment per hectere. If you don’t have entitlements you can apply to national reserve.

How much would that work out at per hectare ballpark?

893bet

Earnshaw wrote: »

How much would that work out at per hectare ballpark?

Google suggests national average of 264 including greening. So 25 percent of that.

Mickey_James

893bet wrote: »

That is the catch 22. And one of the reasons I left transfer till my father was 80. Fair deal forced the hand eventually.

I pay a salary to my father now as this is a farm expense so hopefully that will keep tax bill to a minimum. Leasing would be more profitable but difficult due to fragmented nature and the fact that both our houses are in the farm yard.

It will be interesting when he passes on.

What type of farm is it?

Would you not have left it in your fathers name?

Unless the farm is worth over 3m, you won't pay any inheritance tax (capital gains) whereas I assume you paid 1% stamp duty?

It's suckler, small holding.

893bet

Mickey_James wrote: »

Would you not have left it in your fathers name?

Unless the farm is worth over 3m, you won't pay any inheritance tax (capital gains) whereas I assume you paid 1% stamp duty?

It's suckler, small holding.

Capital gain tax is not the same as inheritance.

Other considering that drove transfer included

1) qualifying for agricultural relief (need 80 percent of assets to be farming assets).

2) fair deal scheme if you father ever needs nursing home care (google it).

Tig98

Mooooo wrote: »

Lads, ye have a bit to learn! If making money in this world the tax man is gonna take a share of it. Ye should be doing business plans and see how it'll affect yer whole situation

You're right that it needs a proactive approach and planning, but Christ its some kick in the teeth.

What ways around it are there? Turning the farm into a private limited company and expensing things like diesel, tax, phone bills etc? If the farm is loss making would it reduce my tax liability on my main income?

To be honest the farm the way my father is running it isnt making much money, suckler-beef on 70 odd acres, itd only ever be a side project. He's put a lot of money and infrastructure into it over the years but there's a very slow turn around on it. Ideally Id like to build a pedigree herd and get a larger turnover off less animals. The time is gone that a farm can sustain a family, at least in my own experience

893bet

Tig98 wrote: »

You're right that it needs a proactive approach and planning, but Christ its some kick in the teeth.

What ways around it are there? Turning the farm into a private limited company and expensing things like diesel, tax, phone bills etc? If the farm is loss making would it reduce my tax liability on my main income?

To be honest the farm the way my father is running it isnt making much money, suckler-beef on 70 odd acres, itd only ever be a side project. He's put a lot of money and infrastructure into it over the years but there's a very slow turn around on it. Ideally Id like to build a pedigree herd and get a larger turnover off less animals. The time is gone that a farm can sustain a family, at least in my own experience

You would be expensing those expenses anyway. No need for a plc to expense those.

Yo can make a loss and it can reduce your off farm tax liability. You can’t do this 3 years in a row or you will be drawing an audit.

You have a lot to learn and reading to do to understand all the different aspects, day to day expenses versus capital allowances etc.

I wouldnt dismiss how your father runs things....he has done ok for the last 40 years and has invested in infrastructure.

Pedigree is not for the faint hearted. Larger turnover off less animals. Probably. Higher costs also e.g vet bills as you need to do c sections regularly. Higher mortality as a result etc of increased calving difficult. That ain’t so easy when you are off farm etc on the day job.....

Mickey_James

893bet wrote: »

You would be expensing those expenses anyway. No need for a plc to expense those.

Yo can make a loss and it can reduce your off farm tax liability. You can’t do this 3 years in a row or you will be drawing an audit.

You have a lot to learn and reading to do to understand all the different aspects, day to day expenses versus capital allowances etc.

I wouldnt dismiss how your father runs things....he has done ok for the last 40 years and has invested in infrastructure.

Pedigree is not for the faint hearted. Larger turnover off less animals. Probably. Higher costs also e.g vet bills as you need to do c sections regularly. Higher mortality as a result etc of increased calving difficult. That ain’t so easy when you are off farm etc on the day job.....

Does the green cert help with any of this?

Where can you learn?

893bet

Mickey_James wrote: »

Does the green cert help with any of this?

Where can you learn?

It can. More or less help depending on your age/enterprise/succession plan etc.

Do some reading. Google it and you will get loads of information. Based on the questions asked ye haven’t looked into it in the slightest and it seems yer expectation is that it is going to be handed to you...

Search terms I suggest.

Inheritance tax
Succession planing
Young farmers scheme
Fair deal scheme
Farm accounts
Farm partnerships
Farm tax efficiency
Capital allowances
Young farmer grant
Greencert advantages
Qualifying as young farmer

endainoz

A quick way to qualify for the young farmers scheme would be once you have started the green cert, you can then go with your father on a join herd number. This will qualify you for the top up for 5 years. That's what I did.

Mickey_James

endainoz wrote: »

A quick way to qualify for the young farmers scheme would be once you have started the green cert, you can then go with your father on a join herd number. This will qualify you for the top up for 5 years. That's what I did.

Does that mean you also split the profits or can all the profits still sit with your father?

ABitofsense

They changed the young farmer scheme for 2020 so that anyone with a off farm income greater than 40k didn't qualify.

endainoz

Mickey_James wrote: »

Does that mean you also split the profits or can all the profits still sit with your father?

As part of a join herd number the farm account would need to be changed to a joint account with both your names on it, I doubt the profits would have to split. Luckily I didn't have the hindrance of earning too much money when I did it. .

The proper way to do it would be to make a succession plan with your accountant/advisor. There are far too many inheritance issues in the country where a will was not done properly or no will at all.

893bet

T

ABitofsense wrote: »

They changed the young farmer scheme for 2020 so that anyone with a off farm income greater than 40k didn't qualify.

That’s for national reserve application.

Are you sure it applies for young farmer payment? I don’t think it does. See below

https://assets.gov.ie/96099/f3752240-80dd-48b5-8151-db347a0b659d.pdf

ABitofsense

893bet wrote: »

T

That’s for national reserve application.

Are you sure it applies for young farmer payment? I don’t think it does. See below

https://assets.gov.ie/96099/f3752240-80dd-48b5-8151-db347a0b659d.pdf

Sorry, your correct. I new there was a part i couldn't get for next year due to off farm earnings

Mooooo

In a partnership the profits can be split any way, 80/ 20 etc irrespective of ownership of the land as such. Talk to a decent accountant

trabpc

893bet wrote: »

It’s under 35 for the tamp due reduction

For the young farmers payment it’s under 40 for a max of 5 years. So if you applied for that at 37 you would only have A max of 3 years. Or at 36 you would have 4.

You need to be farming though! Or at least applying for the BPS.

When does your dad intend to transfer over etc. Does it make sense to e.g have you am off farm job on the higher tax bracket so farm profits be now taxed at higher rate. May be a partnership be better. You prob need to do a lot of reading and then pay for a small bit of advice.

But def do the cert. it’s cheap. It’s easy. And it will pay for itself at some stage.

Nope once you get it under 40 you have full 5 years. Got it at 39 and had it till i was 44.

trabpc

ABitofsense wrote: »

They changed the young farmer scheme for 2020 so that anyone with a off farm income greater than 40k didn't qualify.

For BPS allocation yes.
But if you rent entitlements you get 25% yfs topup on that

Well that's how it was 5 yrs ago. You were excluded from BPS allocation but could rent entitlements and receive 25%, got 60% grant approved age 39 on foot of doing green cert. Started cert when 40!

893bet

trabpc wrote: »

Nope once you get it under 40 you have full 5 years. Got it at 39 and had it till i was 44.

I didn’t realise that! That’s good news! I am only applying first time May next and understood I would lose it once I turned 41 (less that 5 years time)!

Great news!

trabpc

893bet wrote: »

I didn’t realise that! That’s good news! I am only applying first time May next and understood I would lose it once I turned 41 (less that 5 years time)!

Great news!

I got it for 5 years from age 39 to 44 but you needed to start being a "young" farmer before turning 40

LasersGoPewPew

I did the green cert part-time. From my POV it was the huge waste of time, I really regret it. The gains you stand to make obviously depend on the size of your farm or if you're willing to take on cheap rented land. I was promised big top-ups and extra payments from the national reserve, but it didn't materialise to the extent initially calculated. Since I did it part-time it held me back from going back to university. The gains I would have made from being graduated 2 years earlier in my industry would be worth over 10x what I earned from the extra farm payments or savings in inheritance costs. However, the lads and lassies who owned commonage or big farms that were already well managed gained a lot from it.

Everybody is different, their circumstances are different, farm layout is different. Look at what other options are open to you. If you have a small farm and have no 3rd level education then my advice is go to university if at all possible and get a good education. If you want to do the green cert for the education side of it, just watch how-to farming YouTube videos or do good google searches in your area of interest. You'll learn far more from your own research than you ever will from a Teagasc man or woman standing at the top of a room reading off slides or out of a book. Instead, you should attend farm walks whenever things get back to normal. You'll see how other people operate in reality and maybe incorporate a modified operation to your own holding.

But most importantly, do whatever will benefit your future, wellbeing, and happiness.

Donald Trump

There are distance options now for people with some other third level qualifications.

The time needed for distance one is not much. Apart from the 20-25 in-person days you have to attend. But they are spread across 18-24 months.

Cost is about 3k with Teagasc. I think some of the colleges do private versions that cost less.

893bet

Donald Trump wrote: »

There are distance options now for people with some other third level qualifications.

The time needed for distance one is not much. Apart from the 20-25 in-person days you have to attend. But they are spread across 18-24 months.

Cost is about 3k with Teagasc. I think some of the colleges do private versions that cost less.

Westportcfe is 2k distance learning.

With only a handful of days on site.

ABitofsense

LasersGoPewPew wrote: »

the green cert for the education side of it

This is the reason i'm doing it. I'm 35 now and its more to get an understanding of it all from my eyes and not just my father saying that's just the way it should be done. Its only small amount of time & very easy to do.

My view on the farming i'm at is its just a hobby and a switch off from my busy fulltime job which luckily pays very well. Farming allows me to buy stupid things that i don't necessary need and frustrate the neighbors looking over the fence! As long as the books balance each year ill be happy. Any time I put in is out of love of doing it. There is no better feeling than walking through your cows and calves on a summers day after work

Earnshaw

893bet wrote: »

T

That’s for national reserve application.

Are you sure it applies for young farmer payment? I don’t think it does. See below

https://assets.gov.ie/96099/f3752240-80dd-48b5-8151-db347a0b659d.pdf

Is this based on earning from the previous year of that year when application is made to the national reserve?

Donald Trump

ABitofsense wrote: »

This is the reason i'm doing it. I'm 35 now and its more to get an understanding of it all from my eyes and not just my father saying that's just the way it should be done. Its only small amount of time & very easy to do.

The fun begins when you start telling your oul' fella that he's doing it wrong because the Teagasc man told you the right way

davidk1394

If your doing the green cert for tax reasons, be sure you talk to a good accountant and solicitor before you set up farm partnerships. There are some hidden details that take the shine off farm partnerships. After my solicitor explained in detail how a succession farm partnerships works we decided to just do a straight farm transfer.

893bet

Earnshaw wrote: »

Is this based on earning from the previous year of that year when application is made to the national reserve?

For 2020 it was....

Has a gross off-farm income that does not exceed €40,000 in one of the tax years 2018 or 2019.


So you had two chances to qualify.

Tig98

Donald Trump wrote: »

The fun begins when you start telling your oul' fella that he's doing it wrong because the Teagasc man told you the right way

Im in a biological sciences degree with a good bit on crops, environment etc. All I get from him is "How do you know science is real?". I mean how can anyone compete with that logic

trabpc

Tig98 wrote: »

Im in a biological sciences degree with a good bit on crops, environment etc. All I get from him is "How do you know science is real?". I mean how can anyone compete with that logic

Any relation of Donald Trump?

The one in the USA....

Earnshaw

893bet wrote: »

For 2020 it was....

Has a gross off-farm income that does not exceed €40,000 in one of the tax years 2018 or 2019.


So you had two chances to qualify.

Is the Young Farmer Scheme likely to open in 2021?

Donald Trump

trabpc wrote: »

Any relation of Donald Trump?

The one in the USA....

There is only one