Are there any Christian Brothers left in teaching?

John Hutton

Zaph wrote: »

Went to a CB school, did my Leaving in 1984. At that time there were three brothers left - the principal, it was his first year there, had very limited dealings with him but he was a bit of a self-righteous asshole from what I saw. The second was a very strange little man who was probably the most gifted educator I've ever come across. He taught so many subjects, and he taught them all so well. Not a pupil in the school would ever have a bad word to say about him. The third was a complete and utter prick of the highest order. His teaching methods were from the 1950s, he completely destroyed my love for one of my favourite subjects, to the point that I failed it in my Leaving. He really had no business being there imo. There were also a couple of others who left while I was in the school. One who apparently, although I never witnessed it myself, took a gleefully sadistic pleasure when dishing out the leather (which was banned after my first year). And the old principal who, and I did unfortunately witness this myself many times, took an unhealthy interest in students showering after PE.

One of the terrible things about the abuse (pales in comparison to the suffering of the victims which was obviously the worst) is that great educators, like the one you mentioned, good Christian Brothers of which there were many, have had their reputations absolutely destroyed and tainted. Blessed Edmund Rice should have been remembered as one of the greatest Irishmen.

JayRoc

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

JeffreyEpspeen

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

I want to agree but can we really hold these people to the standards of today?

Sardonicat

JeffreyEpspeen wrote: »

I want to agree but can we really hold these people to the standards of today?

In what era was raping children acceptable?

JeffreyEpspeen

Sardonicat wrote: »

In what era was raping children acceptable?

It was never acceptable but it would be easier for someone with knowledge of it to do something about it now than it was then.

Mrs OBumble

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

Agreed. So were the guards, lawyers, judges, doctors, education department officials.

cml387

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

1982 surely and they stopped because it was banned.

I know when I was in school.
I'm just telling my experience, I understand others may have a different one.

Strumms

I did my leaving cert in mid 90’s in a Christian Brothers School.

There was 5 brothers left then..

The principal : a disciplinarian completely, not a very nice person from what I knew of him, meant well but overly strict and if you ended up repeatedly on his radar you would absolutely never find your way off it..he’d hound you. Ran a good school overall but a bully it must be said..

History teacher : a young guy and complete gem of a guy, mid 20’s, fûcking superb teacher, loved his subject and a total interest in helping kids to love history, learn and do well... oddly enough he was also at that time an inter-county footballer for Meath featuring heavily in their league campaign but struggling to make headway into the championship team... this obviously endeared him to the lads who’d spend most of the Monday lessons attempting to get the inside track on everything gaa.. out of a 40 minute Monday class he’s be lucky to get 20 minutes teaching done.. left the brothers now but still teaching and was in the Meath backroom / sideline team recently ..

Woodwork: I never took this subject but I’m lucky, his reputation preceded him, a nasty piece of work, whom years before ran his classes through violence and intimidation, the intimidation was still a big part of his armor, threw dusters around the room and shouted at kids.

History #2: decent teacher and bloke, good sense of humor with a passion for his subject... at times had a bit of a short fuse but rare enough.. think by the odour at times he liked a drink... passsed away I just read.

English : a total eccentric, not far from retirement, supposed to have been handy with his temper if pushed too far but he was ok with us... good teacher...

John Hutton

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

This is a dangerous misunderstanding of how abuse can take place and continue for years in an institution, whether it be a swimming team, other sports team, workplace, school etc. The disturbing reality is that it was not blatant in front of everyone, the most the vast majority of lay teachers or regular brothers would have heard or seen were vague rumors or weird vibes. Many did make complaints to their superiors.

Lets say you work in the public service or a massive company with many offices at different locations. One lad in the office seems a weirdo and some of the other staff act odd around him. You overhear some odd comments, some other staff say to you "that guy is a creep", you hear him make some weird comments. You go to your manager and tell him this, you don't have anything concrete but a lot of incidental things have built up and you are convinced there's something off about the guy and you're afraid he will or has done something. Lets say your manager doesn't just say "well I can't do anything about you getting the creeps off someone" but actually says he will investigate it. I think it's fair enough to say that you have done enough here, you've reported your concerns. All you then know is that an investigation takes place, it is found that he is not guilty but is moved to a different office. You move on with your life, because you trusted the powers that be to do the right thing. Of course, it then turns out that those investigating it found out sexual abuse had occurred and all they did is move him, where he did it again. That's not your fault.

This is how much of this sexual abuse occurred and continued in places. Because institutions were charged with investigating themselves, and people had too much respect and deference to those in authority.

If we start thinking that it occurred in front of everyone and all the teachers were like "Br Jesop is running late today? Yeah he's off raping some first years" we're wrong, because that's not the case. It makes it easier for us today to overlook or ignore things today if we just say that everyone in the school was a monster.

Of course, things are different today because multiple outside agencies have to be involved and there are much more checks and balances. The abuse happened because those in authority, and the system, allowed and permitted individual evil people to get away with things. It didn't happen because every person who ever worked in a Christian brothers school was an evil monster.

boege

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

I would disagree with this view, to an extent. The system (in the 70's when I attended) was predominately lay teachers and they are therefore equally complicit, if all you say was going on in front of their eyes. Equally, parents were well aware of the corporal punishment that was being dished out in schools (in equal measures by both lay and brothers). Society, as a whole, at the time, was well aware what went on in schools and it was socially accepted, to a point. You never went home an told your parents you got punished at school. When someone crossed the boundaries it was kept quiet and covered up. The worst attack on a student I ever saw, was by a lay teacher. I would describe it as a full blown physical assault and it is etched on my memory to this day. The only incident of sexual abuse I ever came across was also by a law teacher and a number of the pupils confronted him, as that was how things were managed then. This was not a rough school by any standards at the time.

My overall experience of 10 years in primary and secondary Christian Brother schools is generally a positive one. Some good, some bad and some nutters, and then there were the brothers who were pretty similar.

silliussoddius

JayRoc wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion, but the "good" brothers were all complicit in the systemic physical and sexual abuse that went on for decades and that makes them just as guilty. There wasn't a man among them that didn't know what was happening, and they let kids suffer because they were afraid to rock the boat.

There were no innocent CBs anymore than there were innocent Gestapo, turning a blind eye is maybe as bad as committing the crime. Those hypocritical ****ers were the ruination of this country.

This didn't happen in isolation, Irish society just can't be let off the hook either. There is a great line in film Spotlight; if it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse a child.

quietsailor

I went to a Christian Brothers school in the nineties and there were three brothers there. They were gentlemen, they went out of their way to help us including lecturing us outside of school. The lay teachers on the other hand were sadists, bullies and bitches with one or two notable exceptions and I think they were bullied by the other teachers too

Yyhhuuu

Edgware wrote: »

Of course there was serious failings with a number of Christian Brothers but many dedicated brothers provided excellent education to thousands of young men when no one else would. In the days before free secondary education they got lads to study hard, win scholarships etc. (In a time where corporal punishment was prevalent in home and school)
Similar to nuns in the schools and hospitals.
I know several nurses who trained in hospitals under the charge of nursing sisters and they have the highest respect for them. The specialists/ consultants would be of the same opinion. Its easy to tar them all with the same brush.

A Nursing Sister may be a religious or a lay person.