Cheapest Option for Wintering Sucklers

farmer2018

I am wondering what is the cheapest option for wintering sucklers? Winter pad, slatted house (40% grant), dry bed shed etc. Any opinions welcome.

Grueller

Local abbatoir

To be honest I think that the slatted tank beats all over a period of time. If you take in the costs of reseeding after outwintering, setting kale, buying woodchip, buying straw or whatever other method you like the slatted tank and lie back reduces labour and cost drastically.

_Brian

Has to be slatted tank.


Depending on your location straw and the likes leave you very open to surges in prices, straw will never be cheap again.

patsy_mccabe

Labour costs way down with slatted sheds too.

endainoz

What's the ground like? If it's rough mountainous type terrain out wintering might be the better option, using breeds like shorthorns, angus or even Galloway's. If the ground is more normal then the slatted house I reckon would be the way to go. The initial costs may be high to set up but it's a long term job once it's done.

Earnshaw

How would Angus/Shorthorn sucklers fare out being wintered in a densely wooded area with access to a sacrificial paddock and a few bales?

josephsoap

Earnshaw wrote: »

How would Angus/Shorthorn sucklers fare out being wintered in a densely wooded area with access to a sacrificial paddock and a few bales?

Is that allowed under cross compliance?

tanko

It depends what you mean by a few bales. If you're talking about approx 1 bale per 20 cows per day then they'll manage the finest.

kk.man

Earnshaw wrote: »

How would Angus/Shorthorn sucklers fare out being wintered in a densely wooded area with access to a sacrificial paddock and a few bales?

I remember a fella in the 80s who was one of the 1st to get into numbers of sucklers. He out wintered them all not a shed in sight except haybarns. These were mostly ch x cows too. The were on rough hilly ground and forestry and fed silage and hay in round feeders. He made a fortune.
The present generation have slatted sheds due to cross compliance and wouldn't have anything like the money that was previously made.

Earnshaw

josephsoap wrote: »

Is that allowed under cross compliance?

What would be the issue that would mean it wouldn't be allowed?

148multi

Earnshaw wrote: »

What would be the issue that would mean it wouldn't be allowed?

Ah poaching, slurry storage, adequate shelter and I'm sure a enterprising dept official would think of a few more like runoff and animals wet.
The happiest cows I ever seen was on wood chip.
There was a farmer down here that had a fattening shed with a sacrifice paddock beside a railway line, shed was hidden from view, but heifers would be lying happy out.
Dept kept getting complaints from commuters until they closed him. From the train all they could see was a large number of cattle in a black field without food and some appered to be dead.

grassroot1

The Burren

minerleague

farmer2018 wrote: »

I am wondering what is the cheapest option for wintering sucklers? Winter pad, slatted house (40% grant), dry bed shed etc. Any opinions welcome.

Outwintered cows for 2 months on "saved forage" ( fields ready for cutting late august / early sept. but left uncut ) When working out cost of baling, feeding , slurry spreading, stacking bales, heavy machinery etc decided to leave and try 1 year. stripped grazed ( moved daily) with next days plot set up as they move. worked well enough ( need to back fence ) doing it again this year although ground is much wetter now

wrangler

minerleague wrote: »

Outwintered cows for 2 months on "saved forage" ( fields ready for cutting late august / early sept. but left uncut ) When working out cost of baling, feeding , slurry spreading, stacking bales, heavy machinery etc decided to leave and try 1 year. stripped grazed ( moved daily) with next days plot set up as they move. worked well enough ( need to back fence ) doing it again this year although ground is much wetter now

I did that for a few years with sheep, the good ryegrasses eventually died out of the sward and left me with a very poor sward.
Eventually it wouldn't even grow grass to graze

_Brian

kk.man wrote: »

I remember a fella in the 80s who was one of the 1st to get into numbers of sucklers. He out wintered them all not a shed in sight except haybarns. These were mostly ch x cows too. The were on rough hilly ground and forestry and fed silage and hay in round feeders. He made a fortune.
The present generation have slatted sheds due to cross compliance and wouldn't have anything like the money that was previously made.

The prices rather than the availability of slatted sheds is a major driver on lack of profitability.

What would beef prices be today if they had kept in line with fertiliser since 1980 ??
At a guess I’d say substantially better than now.

Base price

_Brian wrote: »

Has to be slatted tank.


Depending on your location straw and the likes leave you very open to surges in prices, straw will never be cheap again.

I was on a dairy farm earlier this year and the farmer used oil seed rape straw as bedding in the calving shed and it seemed to work well. I tried using it a few years ago under suck calves but it's very dusty and woody and wouldn't have the absorption of barley, wheaten or even oaten straw. It works well in a dry bedded shed as a base layer with straw on top.

endainoz

The best bedding you can get for animals if your not organic is peat, will only need to do it once for a housing season if it's done right. Great for fighting pathogens too, animals thrive on it.

_Brian

endainoz wrote: »

The best bedding you can get for animals if your not organic is peat, will only need to do it once for a housing season if it's done right. Great for fighting pathogens too, animals thrive on it.

At this stage in the end of life of peat extraction would it be foolish to set up a system reliant on it ?

It’s not gone but it’s continued availability is questionable at best.

endainoz

_Brian wrote: »

At this stage in the end of life of peat extraction would it be foolish to set up a system reliant on it ?

It’s not gone but it’s continued availability is questionable at best.

Hmm you have a good point there Brian, I'm not allowed to use it with organics anyway. Other options for bedding will surely be used in the future as straw gets more expensive, such as hemp fibres or even more use of rushes. I wonder if a person did bio char on a larger scale, could it be used as bedding while mixed with a smaller amount of straw perhaps? Would be invaluable to be able spread that on the land.

_Brian

endainoz wrote: »

Hmm you have a good point there Brian, I'm not allowed to use it with organics anyway. Other options for bedding will surely be used in the future as straw gets more expensive, such as hemp fibres or even more use of rushes. I wonder if a person did bio char on a larger scale, could it be used as bedding while mixed with a smaller amount of straw perhaps? Would be invaluable to be able spread that on the land.

There’s two problems I see with rushes as bedding.

Firstly your spreading the seed bank everywhere, that’s not wise.

Then, land that grows rushes by its nature would be rubbish for working to mow, dry amd bale it on any sort of reliable basis.

TooOldBoots

A slatted shed for sucklers is a waste of money. You'll never see your money back in 3 generations. If you have the sheds already then great otherwise look into some other farming system.

_Brian

TooOldBoots wrote: »

A slatted shed for sucklers is a waste of money. You'll never see your money back in 3 generations. If you have the sheds already then great otherwise look into some other farming system.

There’s a brutal honesty to that post that is hard to disagree with.

Jb1989

_Brian wrote: »

There’s a brutal honesty to that post that is hard to disagree with.

Tho if you've youth and there is good grants and young farmer top ups along with glas etc there is room to pay it off fast.

jimini0

So is out wintering cattle frowned upon these days?
Surely if you have dry enough ground and the cattle have shelter, water and a bit to eat either rough grazing and a bit of meal or hay/silage they would thrive.

_Brian

jimini0 wrote: »

So is out wintering cattle frowned upon these days?
Surely if you have dry enough ground and the cattle have shelter, water and a bit to eat either rough grazing and a bit of meal or hay/silage they would thrive.

We out winter small weanlings here.
Access to dryish paddock and slatted shed with silage at the barrier.

Heavier stock stay in though. Land to carry cows overwinter is scarce.

keepalive213

Lots of cattle out wintered here in the sand dunes along the coast.
Its grand where its hilly but the flat banks are a bleak spot for any animal.

lab man

Earnshaw wrote: »

What would be the issue that would mean it wouldn't be allowed?

Not alliwed use round feeders outside I got a 5% penalty for having 2 a couple of years ago

lab man

_Brian wrote: »

There’s two problems I see with rushes as bedding.

Firstly your spreading the seed bank everywhere, that’s not wise.

Then, land that grows rushes by its nature would be rubbish for working to mow, dry amd bale it on any sort of reliable basis.

The trick is to save the rushes before they come to seed

Reggie.

jimini0 wrote: »

So is out wintering cattle frowned upon these days?
Surely if you have dry enough ground and the cattle have shelter, water and a bit to eat either rough grazing and a bit of meal or hay/silage they would thrive.

Better not be as mine are out the last 3 months

blue5000

AFAIK you have to have adequate slurry storage now for whatever cattle are over wintered. Maybe LC can fill us in on what's needed in the Burren?

TooOldBoots

blue5000 wrote: »

AFAIK you have to have adequate slurry storage now for whatever cattle are over wintered. Maybe LC can fill us in on what's needed in the Burren?

Outwintering in the Burren is done on a very very low stocking density, so the slurry requirement doesn't come into it. The ring feeder is a thing of the past yet it seems to get a blind eye from the Dept on occasion

wrangler

Jjameson wrote: »

N hungry ryegrass and sheep don’t get along in any case.

No more than any animal, they won't thrive on meadow grasses either, very low production from meadow grasses too

Dinzee Conlee

See extract below - from what I can see, out wintering seems to be limited to 1cow/Ha...
EDIT - 1 dairy cow, 1.3 suckler cows...


Reduced storage capacity for cattle (except dairy cows), sheep, deer or goats
If your livestock are outwintered at any time during the prohibited spreading periods (the periods when you are not allowed to spread organic fertiliser), you may need less storage capacity. This rule applies to you if your sheep, deer or goats are outwintered at a grassland stocking rate of not more than 130 kgs of nitrogen to the hectare (this is the equivalent to 10 lowland ewes to the hectare). This rule also applies to you if you have other livestock (excluding dairy cows, deer, goats and sheep) outwintered at a grassland stocking rate not exceeding 85kgs.
If sheep, deer or goats are outwintered with cattle, then the rate that applies is the rate for cattle (85 kgs of nitrogen to the hectare).
You can use Helpsheet 3 of this Handbook (beginning on page 29) to work out your grassland stocking rate. You will also need to know your net grassland area in hectares, which for most holdings is on your application form for the Single Payment Scheme.
If you want to use this rule to have less storage capacity for cattle, sheep, deer, or goats, you must also meet these extra conditions:
l The total amount of livestock manure produced on your holding must not be more than 140 kgs nitrogen per hectare per year, and
l All the lands used for outwintering must be part of your holding, and
l The outwintered stock must have free access at all times to the required land, and l There must be no severe poaching, and


l The reduction in storage capacity must match the actual number of livestock that you have outwintered.
You cannot use this rule to have less storage capacity for dairy cows.


From here
https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/publications/2006/good_ag_practice_handbook.pdf

148multi

Was on this place years ago, he only got 10% of normal winter rain due to the micro climate.
All his cows were aa x fr, fattening heifers for butchers off grass, bullocks got minimal amount of rolled barley to change the colour of fat..
A circul of silage bales around the crop field. Cows grazed from one side, weanglings from other side.

_Brian

148multi wrote: »

Was on this place years ago, he only got 10% of normal winter rain due to the micro climate.
All his cows were aa x fr, fattening heifers for butchers off grass, bullocks got minimal amount of rolled barley to change the colour of fat..
A circul of silage bales around the crop field. Cows grazed from one side, weanglings from other side.

Very different challenge getting such little rainfall.

CloughCasey1

keepalive213 wrote: »

Lots of cattle out wintered here in the sand dunes along the coast.
Its grand where its hilly but the flat banks are a bleak spot for any animal.

There is a massive area on the right for outwintering on the right heading out to Blackrod at Elly beach.

Say my name

There was a piece on ettg a few years back about a farmer in Wicklow wintering sucklers in a coniferous wood.
The Vikings series was filmed there.
He was making a big point on camera about not needing a shed.

Bass Reeves

A slatted unit is the cheapest long-term option. In general suckler's tend to be on poorer land anybody on better land should be moved to drystock or planning to anyway.

In these poorer land areas availablity of straw or other bedding materials have transport as an added cost. At present this is adding up to 10/bale to straw. Straw is hitting 25/ bale in some of these areas.

Rushes make very poor needing as there do not soak liquids. In a drained bedding system they may work to an extent but you then have the spreading of the seed on land . The seed on a rush can stay alive and be viable to germinate for a hundred years.

Out wintering on any land reduced output as land used to outwinter takes.months to recover. It is viable where you have a cess to winterages like the Burren and on mountain type land stocked at a very low rate using traditional light breeds but it's unlikely to be profitable.

The question is it viable to build a shed for suckler's. The big advantage of a slatted unit is it takes the slavery away from wintering cattle through a 120 day plus winter. However anyone building one should really do the maths on it. As well they should decide before starting if they intend staying in suckler's long-term.

While slatted Suckler units are easily adapted to use for drystock they are.much more expensive than a simple slatted unit that is used for drystock. As well.on poorer land the reality is any move away from suckler's will be back to calf to store/finish similarly to the 60's along the west of Ireland. This will require a calf tearing house which should be s separate unit to a slatted house

minerleague

farmer2018 wrote: »

I am wondering what is the cheapest option for wintering sucklers? Winter pad, slatted house (40% grant), dry bed shed etc. Any opinions welcome.

Cheapest mightn't be best ( Greenfield dairy went went pad but collects a lot of water) Most sucklers housed on slats now i'd say but heavy beef cows heavy in-calf confined to 15' x 15' pen for upto 5 months doesn't sit right with me. Also heavy applications of slurry on clay soils tends to sealing and making soil wetter.
Straw is expensive in non tillage parts but i think benefits of FYM on land goes some way to pay for this. No experience of cubicles ( uncle had newton rigg?? cubicles and every winter a couple of cows would get stuck which put me off)

keepalive213

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

There is a massive area on the right for outwintering on the right heading out to Blackrod at Elly beach.

Some spot.. no poaching, great shelter, dry lying. No overheads only fencing and silage.
Sadly I don't own any of it!

Limestone Cowboy

blue5000 wrote: »

AFAIK you have to have adequate slurry storage now for whatever cattle are over wintered. Maybe LC can fill us in on what's needed in the Burren?

No you can ouwinter away if your stocking rate is under 1lu/ha, hard to surpass that around here.

feartuath

grassroot1 wrote: »

The Burren

I was back there recently and admiring the amount of hairy suckler stock between the rocks.

The Burren or else Coillte would be the best place for suckled.

tractorporn

Say my name wrote: »

There was a piece on ettg a few years back about a farmer in Wicklow wintering sucklers in a coniferous wood.
The Vikings series was filmed there.
He was making a big point on camera about not needing a shed.

Thats these guys

https://www.facebook.com/994068584016247/posts/3638580296231716/

50HX

At 40% grant I would put up the cheapest slatted shed possible
No bells & whistles

You can always add on a bay for calving after ....keep your cost to absolute min

Sheep breeder

Say my name wrote: »

There was a piece on ettg a few years back about a farmer in Wicklow wintering sucklers in a coniferous wood.
The Vikings series was filmed there.
He was making a big point on camera about not needing a shed.

Do you believe everything ettg puts out, how much damage did the cows do to the so called wood. Cattle were fed in ring feeders and made a mess.

wrangler

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Do you believe everything ettg puts out, how much damage did the cows do to the so called wood. Cattle were fed in ring feeders and made a mess.

I was on a farm in New Zealand where they wintered in a forest, On seeing it I asked How many hectares of forest, he said about 15kms south and 8 kms north.
They were allowed do it to reduce the fire risk in the undergrowth, they had to fence the cattle out of any trees under 4yr old.
They were wintering about three hundred sucklers in the forestry and never monitored them calving.
Easy Care eh

farawaygrass

I was in the burren before and looking up mountain, there was a big cross built from stone, fairly high, and a guy told me it was built for shelter. No matter what way the wind came they had shelter. I thought it clever. I do believe they get a grant for farming the burren, and along with low winter costs, very healthy cows, suckling is really suited to this area.
There is ground locally that was never reclaimed. Would be very light land, with plenty of hazel and bushes growing throughout. I would love to get my hands on it. Couldn’t cut silage or spread fertiliser but it would keep animals real healthy and hearty over the winter

NcdJd

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Do you believe everything ettg puts out.

After watching a slot some weeks ago about a large grower on how successful he is and hearing subsequently from another grower that he is losing his bollox in his "successful" enterprise I'll take anything I see on ettg again with a large dose of salt.

divillybit

I recall about 15 years ago we out wintered 15 cows and calves on a bit of cut away bog we had, we brought in 2 or 3 bales of silage a week into them and moved the round feeder each time. They had lots of shelter in through birch trees and whin bushes. They were the healthiest happiest cattle I ever seen, and looked the part. Even on miserable day that winter they were smiling.

TooOldBoots

I've some dry cows out in a rough bit of ground (rushes and fur bushes) on the side of the mountain. All I give them is 1 kg of a cheap beef nut spread along the ground nothing else. I got caught with one of them, She had calved herself, I had the wrong time for her.
They are are flying it, in great condition, even last week on one of the nights it lashed down heavy rain all night, the following day the calf was hopping around the place.
The cows in the slatted house is another story, them slats are really no place for a heavy in calf cow. Between the hard slats,dirt, lice and bullying going on its not a nice place for them.

Earnshaw

NcdJd wrote: »

After watching a slot some weeks ago about a large grower on how successful he is and hearing subsequently from another grower that he is losing his bollox in his "successful" enterprise I'll take anything I see on ettg again with a large dose of salt.

Ya saw that segment on ETTG about GM free Dairy. Pure nonsense to be inventing new labels when there is already Organic.