Illegal immigrants are heroes - the Irish Times reaches peak virtue signalling

tdf7187

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/twelve-days-in-an-irish-prison-the-most-stressful-period-of-my-life-1.4425572

What a ridiculous piece.

The Irish Times wants us to see illegal immigrants as poor little lambs, oppressed by our cruel immigration system, whereas in reality everyone knows that it is actually absurdly lax.

Annasopra

tdf7187 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/twelve-days-in-an-irish-prison-the-most-stressful-period-of-my-life-1.4425572

What a ridiculous piece.

The Irish Times wants us to see illegal immigrants as poor little lambs, oppressed by our cruel immigration system, whereas in reality everyone knows that it is actually absurdly lax.

What are you on about. This isnt about immigrants.

Bonniedog

Why would you even read that rag?

Socialist Worker for people who work, but are also virtue signalling guilt ridden twats.

Kermit.de.frog

I'm confused.

What's the point you are trying to make OP?

tdf7187

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm confused.

What's the point you are trying to make OP?

The article protrays those who were detained while trying to enter the country as martyrs, with all the usual virtual signallers lined up to be interviewed. There is obviously a good reason why they were detained. We are not some fascist state that just detains people on the whim of a dictator.

Wibbs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What are you on about. This isnt about immigrants.

Yes it is. It's about immigration control. In these cases how there were both screw ups in the system and that there isn't a dedicated centre for those refused access to Ireland and that they're ending up in existing prisons, which is stupid and potentially dangerous to people who haven't broken any crimes, outside of possibly trying to evade Irish immigration controls. Both of these shortcomings quite clearly need to be addressed and fixed.

The dual US/Israeli citizen seems out of place to some degree in this article.

Avissar, who had taken anti-anxiety medication, started to act out towards crew when the flight announced its change of route and was detained upon arrival in Dublin.

He "started to act out" sounds like a touch of air rage going on, hence he was detained. They don't generally detain people for the craic and nobody else on the flight was detained. Now him being held here for three weeks because of covid isolation is more than a bit rich and wrong, but there's more to that story I reckon.

Quantum Erasure

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What are you on about. This isnt about immigrants.

The systems working so

Quantum Erasure

The individual cases referred that were referred to had nothing to do with illegal immigrants. And one just seemed to be racially profiled more than anything and they concluded she was lying about doing a course. She received an apology over it but doesn't make it remotely okay how she was treated.

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

The systems working so

The system isn't working if the justice minister has to apologise to people who fall victim to it. Same if they're not afforded legal representation much of the time. Doubting that many of ye read the article.

JustAThought

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes it is. It's about immigration control. In these cases how there were both screw ups in the system and that there isn't a dedicated centre for those refused access to Ireland and that they're ending up in existing prisons, which is stupid and potentially dangerous to people who haven't broken any crimes, outside of possibly trying to evade Irish immigration controls. Both of these shortcomings quite clearly need to be addressed

The dual US/Israeli citizen seems out of place to some degree in this article.

Avissar, who had taken anti-anxiety medication, started to act out towards crew when the flight announced its change of route and was detained upon arrival in Dublin.

He "started to act out" sounds like a touch of air rage going on, hence he was detained. They don't generally detain people for the craic and nobody else on the flight was detained. Now him being held here for three weeks because of covid isolation is more than a bit rich and wrong, but there's more to that story I reckon.

I wouldn’t give any credence to the Irish Times anymore - as you say - they seem to have an agenda that is so anti-Irish and be so degrading and insulting towards the mechanisms of the state in protecting their law abiding native citizens that it beggars belief.

It is a private non profit charity I believe - I winder who sits on its board and who its real owners are?

Too much of ongoing agendas in crime and border control to bother with - and certainly as their sales figures will show - their ‘old’ audiences walking away from paying for this dross in thousands. Go figure.

CountNjord

I remember when the Irish times was a paper of intelligence, now they applaud negligence...

Conservative hippy here

biko

Estefany González was refused “leave to land”.
People who are refused leave to land never officially enter Ireland, but must await a plane back to their country of origin.

Why she was refused is not said.
Maybe because she didn't have a visa? Edit, Chilean citizens apparently don't need visa.
Possibly covid related?

Estefany was released from the Dóchas women’s prison where she had spent 12 days in solitary confinement.

tdf7187

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Well, no, in a lot of cases there isn't a good reason. That was one of the points raised in the article.

Who says? Just because the authorities are not prepared to divulge to the Irish Times what the reasons are doesn't mean there aren't. Who knows, they could have stuff on file indicating links to terrorism in some cases (I don't necessarily mean the cases highlighted in the article), do you really think they are going to announce that to the world via the Irish Times?

MontgomeryClift

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes it is. It's about immigration control. In these cases how there were both screw ups in the system and that there isn't a dedicated centre for those refused access to Ireland and that they're ending up in existing prisons, which is stupid and potentially dangerous to people who haven't broken any crimes, outside of possibly trying to evade Irish immigration controls. Both of these shortcomings quite clearly need to be addressed and fixed.

The dual US/Israeli citizen seems out of place to some degree in this article.

Avissar, who had taken anti-anxiety medication, started to act out towards crew when the flight announced its change of route and was detained upon arrival in Dublin.

He "started to act out" sounds like a touch of air rage going on, hence he was detained. They don't generally detain people for the craic and nobody else on the flight was detained. Now him being held here for three weeks because of covid isolation is more than a bit rich and wrong, but there's more to that story I reckon.

Also:

Avissar’s Garda file, which was sent to the governor of Cloverhill Prison and was seen by The Irish Times, states he was refused permission to land because “his presence could pose a threat to national security” and that there was reason to believe he intended to enter Ireland for reasons “other than those expressed”.

Seems like another Israeli up to no good. I suspect him to be the reason the article was written. Mention the most significant item last. It's an old trick.

Also, the article is written by Sorcha Pollak.

Why am I so interested in refugees? I am descended from emigrants
When I was 17 I read the book Stephen Pollak wrote about the decade leading up to his move to Ireland. I immediately felt drawn to this elusive Jewish, left-wing grandfather who had died nearly a decade before my birth.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/why-am-i-so-interested-in-refugees-i-am-descended-from-emigrants-1.3460799

Gach uair.

biko

biko wrote: »

Estefany Gonzálezx was refused “leave to land”.
People who are refused leave to land never officially enter Ireland, but must await a plane back to their country of origin.

Why she was refused is not said.
Maybe because she didn't have a visa?
Possibly covid related?

Estefany was released from the Dóchas women’s prison where she had spent 12 days in solitary confinement.

The claim is they didn't believe she would be studying in Ireland iirc. Chileans don't require a visa to come to Ireland. She had a place to stay so was capable of isolating. The fact the Justice Minister apologised indicates that she shouldn't have been detained.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0716/1153788-chilean-student-estefany-alquinta-gonzalez/

biko

Another article:
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0714/1153254-estefany-carolina-alquinta-gonzalez-court/

Estefany Alquinta Gonzalez made the trip to Ireland from Denmark earlier this month.

The 33-year-old was denied entry on the grounds that she represented a real and immediate threat to the fundamental policy interests of the State.

What a strange case and not a good look for Ireland.

AlekSmart

tdf7187 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/twelve-days-in-an-irish-prison-the-most-stressful-period-of-my-life-1.4425572

What a ridiculous piece.

The Irish Times wants us to see illegal immigrants as poor little lambs, oppressed by our cruel immigration system, whereas in reality everyone knows that it is actually absurdly lax.

Even the dopiest Gael heading out forren,will do the basic stuff in relation to Vusa and Entry requirements to the chosen destination....If they choose not to prepare and then,for example,arrive in Santiago with non-existant or incomplete paperwork,will the Chilean Times immediately despatch a significant reporter to puff out the Immigrant's piece and market it as a denial of Human Rights ?

I still do regard the Irish Times as a valuable and trustworthy source of News & Information,however,this trust HAS to be reciprocated by an Editorial policy which engages in proof reading and deploying some logical oversight on the inputs of it's journalists.

Put bluntly,Sorcha Pollack's piece contains nothing of any real note to worry the great bulk of compliant Irish society....the remainder,for sure,need to pay more attention to their paperwork

Halenvaneddie

Some culture are better than others.....

Donald Trump

biko wrote: »

Estefany González was refused “leave to land”.
People who are refused leave to land never officially enter Ireland, but must await a plane back to their country of origin.

Why she was refused is not said.
Maybe because she didn't have a visa? Edit, Chilean citizens apparently don't need visa.
Possibly covid related?

Estefany was released from the Dóchas women’s prison where she had spent 12 days in solitary confinement.

You don't need a visa to come from Chile for short term study, however you need to have enrolled and paid before you land



http://inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/non-visa-short-study

Kermit.de.frog

Even so, solitary confinement!?

There are a lot of people far more deserving in this country of solitary confinement!

Recklessly OTT in my opinion.

biko

According to this article https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40021637.html

Minster for Justice says most people are returned on the same day they are refused entry

In reply to a parliamentary question earlier this week, the Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, said that a refusal of leave to land, unlike a deportation or removal order, does not prevent the person from seeking to enter the State in the future if they satisfy the conditions for entry.

The Minister said there was a statutory obligation to return a person refused entry permission as soon as was practicable and that detaining them in a Garda station or prison was used “as a last resort”.

“Most persons are returned on the same day that they are refused entry,” she added.

AlekSmart

biko wrote: »

According to this article https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40021637.html

Minster for Justice says most people are returned on the same day they are refused entry

In reply to a parliamentary question earlier this week, the Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, said that a refusal of leave to land, unlike a deportation or removal order, does not prevent the person from seeking to enter the State in the future if they satisfy the conditions for entry.

The Minister said there was a statutory obligation to return a person refused entry permission as soon as was practicable and that detaining them in a Garda station or prison was used “as a last resort”.

“Most persons are returned on the same day that they are refused entry,” she added.

So...what's the back story on this case ?

Was it simply a solo-run by a wild eyed official ?
Was it RACISM ?
Was it based upon some,as yet unrevealed,information relating to the applicant,which required research ?
Or will it be put-down to Covid.

Either way,rockin up to an Immigration Desk ANYWHERE with a belief that somebody else has done your paperwork,will usually not end well,an expectation all the more surprising in somebody so well travelled as Ms Gonzalez ?

Definitely time to order Popcorn

JustAThought

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

My partner was denied entry and held for hours at Dublin Airport. If she has links to terrorism it's news to me - she's from a well off family in New York as well so she's not in any way part of a suspect demographic.

She wasn't allowed to contact anyone, I only found out because an immigration official came out and told me. Her family knew nothing about it all. It turns out the reason was the immigration officers didn't believe she would leave the country when she was supposed to. Now that's a perfectly valid reason to deny someone entry to the country. It's not a valid reason to hold someone for hours (or days as is the case with some of the people mentioned in the article). It's certainly not a valid reason to deny them any contact with them family to let them know they're okay.

Based on that experience I'd have absolutely no issue believing people are being held for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with national security. It's the kind of thing we get outraged about when it happens to Irish in the US.

Your partner somehow lives full time in NY but came to Ireland - presumably to visit ‘their partner’ - you- - for a ‘holiday’ ? Thats a red light to start with. They had no legitimate visa to get into the country and do not have citizen or naturalisation papers through you - their lifelong partner. Sounds fishy. They also live on a different continent in a different timezone. Sounds fishy. You say their family were not notified but at the same time you say you are their partner and family and you were notified - in fact the immigration/boarder control official came out and looked for you to tell you. The reason given was because immigration felt they would not return when they were due to. Sounds entirely legitimate.

You must be a big Irish Times reader.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

Your partner somehow lives full time in NY but came to Ireland - presumably to visit ‘their partner’ - you- - for a ‘holiday’ ? Thats a red light to start with. They had no legitimate visa to get into the country and do not have citizen or naturalisation papers through you - their lifelong partner. Sounds fishy. They also live on a different continent in a different timezone. Sounds fishy. You say their family were not notified but at the same time you say you are their partner and family and you were notified - in fact the immigration/boarder control official came out and looked for you to tell you. The reason given was because immigration felt they would not return when they were due to. Sounds entirely legitimate.

You must be a big Irish Times reader.

Never heard of long distance relationships?

tdf7187

tdf7187 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/twelve-days-in-an-irish-prison-the-most-stressful-period-of-my-life-1.4425572

What a ridiculous piece.

The Irish Times wants us to see illegal immigrants as poor little lambs, oppressed by our cruel immigration system, whereas in reality everyone knows that it is actually absurdly lax.

I actually doubt you read this article

Have you linked to the wrong article OP?

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

It is a private non profit charity I believe - I winder who sits on its board and who its real owners are?

Just look it up, for goodness' sake. It'd take you less time to find out than it did to whine about it at our expense.

tdf7187

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Even so, solitary confinement!?

There are a lot of people far more deserving in this country of solitary confinement!

Recklessly OTT in my opinion.

The article complains about a detainee being harassed by other detainees when in a shared cell. So solitary confinement is a good thing, yeah?

The liberals and social justice warrior brigade cannot have it both ways.

AlekSmart

tdf7187 wrote: »

The article complains about a detainee being harassed by other detainees when in a shared cell. So solitary confinement is a good thing, yeah?

The liberals and social justice warrior brigade cannot have it both ways.

Indeed....perhaps a photo of the Dochás "solitary" confinement cell might be appropriate here ?

http://www.irishprisons.ie/prison/dochas-centre/

V8 Interceptor

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Also, the article is written by Sorcha Pollak.



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/why-am-i-so-interested-in-refugees-i-am-descended-from-emigrants-1.3460799

Gach uair.

I'm glad I reached your post before I read the article. Looks like my subconscious defense mechanism to not waste time on these links kicked in appropriately.

I recall Ms Pollak once proudly saying how she attacked two elderly women having a private conversation on public transport bemoaning how Ireland had changed so suddenly and not to their liking.

One may not like other's opinions but it says something when someone not only feels they have the right to chastise senior citizens but feel confident enough to write an article in a daily newspaper boasting of it.

Wibbs

I doubt she'd be nearly as brave challenging a pair of hairy arsed builders expressing the same views.

Wibbs

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

If you bothered reading my post you'd see that I said I have no issue with the decision, it's the way people are treated.

That would be my take too. I have zero issue with border and immigration control, indeed would be far happier if it were increased, but it's how it's done is the thing in this case. And how variable it seems to be. Airport arrivals seem to be low hanging fruit to me.

V8 Interceptor

AlekSmart wrote: »

I still do regard the Irish Times as a valuable and trustworthy source of News & Information

:pac:

AlekSmart

Wibbs wrote: »

I doubt she'd be nearly as brave challenging a pair of hairy arsed builders expressing the same views.

Ah I dunno...she writ a buke about the forreners it seems..."New to the Country"

She is continuing a family Journalistic streak,with he Da being Andy Pollack,late of the Irish Times and her Ma,Doireann Ni Bhrian of Telefís Eireann fame.

Sorcha is also well travelled,and experienced in looking after deprived foreign folk from across a broad swathe of the exotic foreign World

https://ie.linkedin.com/in/sorchapollak

All far from the leafy environs of Muckross Park.

Jimi H

I do feel people should be treated fairly when they arrive but I have to say the standard of journalism seems to be declining. An article like that leaves more questions than answers and the reader seemingly has to fill in the blanks. Anyway, nothing to get angry about. Time for a beer.

Getoffmytrain

Dublin airport immigration has been a disaster since they civilianised it. The Gardaí stopped far less people when they were in charge, as they were looking for criminal elements and not young people to harass.
Nearly every case that has made it to Court has resulted in a rebuke for the department but they continue to ignore the problems.

Jamie2k9

Getoffmytrain wrote: »

Dublin airport immigration has been a disaster since they civilianised it. The Gardaí stopped far less people when they were in charge, as they were looking for criminal elements and not young people to harass.
Nearly every case that has made it to Court has resulted in a rebuke for the department but they continue to ignore the problems.

Not sure its civilians fault but rather intel has been greatly enhanced in recent years and has detected lots of well known scams/illegal entry.

English language schools were exposed as an illegal immigration entry into Ireland and resulted in a clamp down.

Considering over 15 million pass though immigration in DUB, not many are "detained".

Former Former Former

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm confused.

What's the point you are trying to make OP?

The OP didn't read the article.

That's probably where the confusion arose

Donald Trump

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Even so, solitary confinement!?

There are a lot of people far more deserving in this country of solitary confinement!

Recklessly OTT in my opinion.

If it was someone that you knew, would you prefer that they were put into solitary confinement or locked up with the general prison population?




Lets be realistic, lady who's Belgian or whatever visa was just about to expire, rocks up to the immigration desk on 2nd July, in the middle of a pandemic/lockdown and says "hi, let me in. I'm going to enroll later in a language school". Sure there were none open.


The page I linked to earlier clearly says

You must enroll on and pay for your course of study (in full) before you travel to Ireland.

Here is a document with all the requirements

Whether the student spends their time in study, playing golf or touring is not particularly relevant. What is important is;

(a) The stated reason for their visit is credible;

(b) The student/tourist has a return flight and leaves at the end of their stay;

(c) They can support themselves while here;

(d) They obey the law;

(e) They do not engage in work, and

(f) They are covered by private medical insurance.



Therefore it is proposed that applications from students who can demonstrate that they are enrolled on a short term language course of less than 90 days and that they have paid the course fees in full, will now be treated as educational tourists.

Who really thinks it was credible that she was landing on 2nd July, intending to sign up to a language school? I don't. I'm sure she meant no harm and she probably would have gotten away with it in normal times but it would have been difficult to give her the benefit of the doubt when the immigration officer would have known that everything was closed down indefinitely at that time.

Beechwoodspark

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah I dunno...she writ a buke about the forreners it seems..."New to the Country"

She is continuing a family Journalistic streak,with he Da being Andy Pollack,late of the Irish Times and her Ma,Doireann Ni Bhrian of Telefís Eireann fame.

Sorcha is also well travelled,and experienced in looking after deprived foreign folk from across a broad swathe of the exotic foreign World

https://ie.linkedin.com/in/sorchapollak

All far from the leafy environs of Muckross Park.

Just from reading that she did 1 month in morning ireland.

Wonder what the story there is

francois

Another strawman wearily appears on boards

tdf7187

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah I dunno...she writ a buke about the forreners it seems..."New to the Country"

She is continuing a family Journalistic streak,with he Da being Andy Pollack,late of the Irish Times and her Ma,Doireann Ni Bhrian of Telefís Eireann fame.

Sorcha is also well travelled,and experienced in looking after deprived foreign folk from across a broad swathe of the exotic foreign World

https://ie.linkedin.com/in/sorchapollak

All far from the leafy environs of Muckross Park.

Ah yes, well four legs good, two legs bad. Nepotism is bad everywhere except in the Irish Times/RTE circle of weasel. It's ok when we do it.

Getoffmytrain

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not sure its civilians fault but rather intel has been greatly enhanced in recent years and has detected lots of well known scams/illegal entry.

English language schools were exposed as an illegal immigration entry into Ireland and resulted in a clamp down.

Considering over 15 million pass though immigration in DUB, not many are "detained".

The point is Gardaí were keen to stop criminal elements, so prison wasn't seen as inappropriate as it is now.
Language school students are hardly a threat to the security of the state, which is meant to be the reason to stop them.

Still that's hardly the issue, sending non criminal people to prison is.
In 2015, when the change happened they said they would build a detention centre in the airport for people to wait in before they would be returned to their country of origin. The UK have facilities like these which are more like hostels than prisons, but they didn't bother.

Demanding to see the content of peoples phones and not giving them legal representation or written reasons for refusal makes it look like there's something rotten in the place.

Bonniedog

CountNjord wrote: »

I remember when the Irish times was a paper of intelligence, now they applaud negligence...

Conservative hippy here

Editor is a pretentious git who thinks he is the Irish Sartre.

d15ude

Donald Trump wrote: »

Who really thinks it was credible that she was landing on 2nd July, intending to sign up to a language school? I don't. I'm sure she meant no harm and she probably would have gotten away with it in normal times but it would have been difficult to give her the benefit of the doubt when the immigration officer would have known that everything was closed down indefinitely at that time.

Language schools were open during the lockdown using online learning methods.

Donald Trump

d15ude wrote: »

Language schools were open during the lockdown using online learning methods.

No need to move here currently then is there?



You can normally move to a place to mingle and practice the language. Which you can't do when under lockdown.


The visa free scheme is for 90 days as long as you have your tuition already booked and paid for. Someone landing in at start of July 2020 realistically isn't being serious. Especially with nothing booked.

Gervais08

Donald Trump wrote: »

No need to move here currently then is there?



You can normally move to a place to mingle and practice the language. Which you can't do when under lockdown.


The visa free scheme is for 90 days as long as you have your tuition already booked and paid for. Someone landing in at start of July 2020 realistically isn't being serious. Especially with nothing booked.

I would never give a visa to anyone coming to a language school - too easy for fraud and genuine learners can find other ways to learn. Like online.

Donald Trump

Gervais08 wrote: »

I would never give a visa to anyone coming to a language school - too easy for fraud and genuine learners can find other ways to learn. Like online.

I wouldn't be against genuine ones at all. There would be plenty of genuine ones. I think they tightened up on the language schools back a decade ago because at that time some were (allegedly) springing up as vehicles for bringing in cheap labour - the "student" could legally work 20 hours a week or something like that.



Someone arriving in the middle of a lockdown though with no booking or fees paid - not plausible IMO. If it had been someone who had organised and paid 6 months earlier, before corona, and couldn't get refund of their fees or flights then I'd have sympathy for them.

Gervais08

Donald Trump wrote: »

I wouldn't be against genuine ones at all. There would be plenty of genuine ones. I think they tightened up on the language schools back a decade ago because at that time some were (allegedly) springing up as vehicles for bringing in cheap labour - the "student" could legally work 20 hours a week or something like that.



Someone arriving in the middle of a lockdown though with no booking or fees paid - not plausible IMO. If it had been someone who had organised and paid 6 months earlier, before corona, and couldn't get refund of their fees or flights then I'd have sympathy for them.

Fair points tbh!

Strumms

Gervais08 wrote: »

I would never give a visa to anyone coming to a language school - too easy for fraud and genuine learners can find other ways to learn. Like online.

It’s better ok to learn a language in a city and county where you can immerse yourself in the language being spoken. I learned French in school and college and then lived and worked over there which was fine... EU to EU and I was given nominal yet valuable work experience in an EU organization with costs covered by my low wages ie. accommodation and living expenses... then I went home.

You can learn English in and city in the world, again, better to immerse yourself where it’s spoken but if you have no right to do that... tough.