How do we actually fix the rental market?

yer man!

I'm not a home owner yet (saving for it) and have the experience of renting in Ireland in multiple cities over the past few years. I'm just wondering, how do we fix the rental market in Ireland? The high cost, the low quality, the lack of supply, the overcrowding, the crap protections for both the landlords and the tenants, the only viable option being to house share....

How do we actually make it better? I've been contacting politicians for the past 5 years here and always get the same response of toothless policies they have mentioned they're using to fight the problem but clearly there's very little progress.

It honestly feels like we are where we are by design, i remember the time when we had thousands upon thousands of vacant properties all over the country, perhaps I am looking through rose tinted glasses but it definitely seems like we're not heading in the right direction.

Dav010

yer man! wrote: »

i remember the time when we had thousands upon thousands of vacant properties all over the country, perhaps I am looking through rose tinted glasses but it definitely seems like we're not heading in the right direction.

Are you talking about during the last recession where thousands of properties were available but nobody could afford to buy them?

daheff

Supply- much more needed
Rules on what should be provided as part of a tenancy by landlord
Rules on how much rent can be (function of renter's income)
Deposit held by 3rd party with defined rules on when it can be forfeited or returned.

Enforcement of rules & evictions after X number of days when rent has not been paid

boombang

daheff wrote: »

Supply- much more needed
Rules on what should be provided as part of a tenancy by landlord
Rules on how much rent can be (function of renter's income)
Deposit held by 3rd party with defined rules on when it can be forfeited or returned.

Enforcement of rules & evictions after X number of days when rent has not been paid

Agree, except for rent control. It causes problems. Plus you'd have people underdeclaring and doing funny sublets.

Idbatterim

Supply doesn't necessarily cause price decreases, insane supply during that boom and RIP off prices....

Cost of building is too high, government creaming off too much in taxes...

Graham

Idbatterim wrote: »

Supply doesn't necessarily cause price decreases, insane supply during that boom and RIP off prices....

Because demand was inflated due to excessive credit leading to.......

insufficient supply to meet the demand.

dotsman

Idbatterim wrote: »

Supply doesn't necessarily cause price decreases, insane supply during that boom and RIP off prices....

Cost of building is too high, government creaming off too much in taxes...

There was a ridiculous undersupply during the boom, hence the boom.

There has been a massive shortage of suitable property (both residential and office) in our cities since the nineties. Ireland, as a country may have begun to modernise over the last 30 years, but our cities did not, and continue to be based on industrial era small towns.

And with councils still displaying complete incompetence when it comes to planning, this will continue for decades to come. Even if/when they start doing proper planning, it will be 20+ years before it resolves the issue. Hence, the politicians (under pressure from the muppet mob) don't bother, instead always focusing on BS short term policies that either don't work, or often cause the problem to get worse.

handlemaster

If a contract terms were to be respected by tenants and enforceable automatically without two years going through the courts when rent is not paid or damage is done that would help. Because landlords would then be more comfortable in accepting lower rents.

Government accept that the private rental market is just that and not be used as a political punching ball with the sway of public opinion.

Lower taxes on rental property for landlords. I know people say why should there be etc ... Well the government is taking a very large portion of the rent received each month but renters only see lm to think its the landlord why buckets the cash

Wanderer78

yer man! wrote:

I'm not a home owner yet (saving for it) and have the experience of renting in Ireland in multiple cities over the past few years. I'm just wondering, how do we fix the rental market in Ireland? The high cost, the low quality, the lack of supply, the overcrowding, the crap protections for both the landlords and the tenants, the only viable option being to house share....

Thankfully the market is slowly making it's way to equilibrium, so this issue will be resolved soon!

Smouse156

I think it’s pretty simple, a massive increase in supply built by government (providing land etc) not just for social housing on their own land.

If we looked like we had an oversupply (not likely) then the Airbnb rules could be relaxed and some form of NCT for landlord properties to kick out the sub standard crap. I wouldn’t advocate the latter until we had an oversupply.

yer man!

Dav010 wrote: »

Are you talking about during the last recession where thousands of properties were available but nobody could afford to buy them?

There were obviously more during the recession yeah as ppl had no money to buy them and the bank was not lending. But in the boom time itself, we were building far far more houses than we are today I believe? I know this was fueled by unsustainable credit and was a defacto bubble but still. There seems to be pent up demand for houses in Ireland, from people that can afford them but there's just not much there to buy. Like I'm at the point of saying give the developer whatever that want, tax breaks, relaxed planning laws, anything, just feckin build!

Marius34

Rental market is in really bad shape, with rental prices worst than sales price. I'm afraid it will be disaster for someone looking for rental property by September next year.
The only way currently to get out of it, is build, build, build...
The other question, how to ramp up construction, and competition on Supply side.

Dav010

Smouse156 wrote: »

I think it’s pretty simple, a massive increase in supply built by government (providing land etc) not just for social housing on their own land.

Three questions about this, firstly, where would the money come from to build tens/hundreds of thousands of properties? Secondly, the new maternity hospital is an example of what happens when the government gets involved in large construction projects. Thirdly, would you be concerned about another Ballymun flats-type scenario if the Government got into a large scale housing project to provide free/affordable housing to those that need it?

Wanderer78

Dav010 wrote: »

Three questions about this, firstly, where would the money come from to build tens/hundreds of thousands of properties? Secondly, the new maternity hospital is an example of what happens when the government gets involved in large construction projects. Thirdly, would you be concerned about another Ballymun flats-type scenario if the Government got into a large scale housing project to provide free/affordable housing to those that need it?

oh ffs, the usual chestnuts, publicly funded via borrowing, baring in mind, it is possible to part self fund, but we re not into that stuff at all, we d rather borrow from others for some strange reason, public developments are generally done by private sector contracts, and why would we result back to failed developments such as ballymun!

Marius34

Dav010 wrote: »

Three questions about this, firstly, where would the money come from to build tens/hundreds of thousands of properties? Secondly, the new maternity hospital is an example of what happens when the government gets involved in large construction projects. Thirdly, would you be concerned about another Ballymun flats-type scenario if the Government got into a large scale housing project to provide free/affordable housing to those that need it?

Agree with this. And with Public projects comes corruption. You really need to have trustable and efficient government. I don't believe in this as a solution to fix rental market.
Some may point to Singapore, as an example, but I don't think it can be replicated here.

Dav010

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs, the usual chestnuts, publicly funded via borrowing, baring in mind, it is possible to part self fund, but we re not into that stuff at all, we d rather borrow from others for some strange reason, public developments are generally done by private sector contracts, and why would we result back to failed developments such as ballymun!

Offs?

The cost of building a 2-3 bed house in greater Dublin area is approx €300k, a little less when done by direct procurement by LA’s, so consider how much 30k properties would cost to build.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cost-of-building-homes-can-be-much-cheaper-1.4351897?mode=amp

Self fund with what?

The maternity hospital is a private contract with BAM.

Wanderer78

Dav010 wrote: »

Offs?

The cost of building a 2-3 bed house in greater Dublin area is approx €300k, a little less when done by direct procurement by LA’s, so consider how much 30k properties would cost to build.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cost-of-building-homes-can-be-much-cheaper-1.4351897%3fmode=amp

Self fund with what?

The maternity hospital is a private contract with BAM.

yes, so what? we re in a period of deflation, our economy needs money, and fast, money is created by borrowing, both in the public and private sectors, the majority being in the private sector, in the form of credit, and we all know what happens when you overly rely on that!

it is possibly to part self fund via public banks, but we have no interest in doing so, we d rather borrow from foreign entities, for some bloody reasons!

yes bam are one of our major public contractors, and you d be damn naïve to think no one knew it was gonna go miles over budget, before a shovel was used!

Turquoise Hexagon Sun

Reduce the number of student visas from non EEA areas.

Figures show that around 13,500 first residence permits were issued to students entering higher education in Ireland from non-European Economic Area (EEA) countries in 2017 – a 45% increase on the same figure from 2013
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/international-student-numbers-origin-ireland-2017-4643317-May2019/%3famp=1

It don't think its a coincidence that since 2013 there was nearly a 50% increase in non EEA student visas. Thats 13,500 Visas they gave out to students coming to Ireland. Where is this 45% increase of students going to live. I'll give you a clue. Its not student accommodation. Its normal rental accommodation. Locals are competing against a 45% increase in students. Its mental.

I'm all for students coming and studying. I think its great. Its not their fault. Its our sham government and politicans trying to make a quick buck and import a temporary cheap, working part-time working class and so their friends that own some English schools can get a influx of students for their English School businesses whilst screwing over local population.

Government gives out all the 3 year visas. They get cash from those student visas. They have to have 5000 euros in the bank to attain the visas to prove they can pay their way if there are problems. This money may or may not prop the economy a bit. 13,500 people putting 5,000 each into Irish bank accounts... But wait.

Government overcrowds rental market and guess who are the beneficiaries of an overcrowded rental market? All those politicians that own a second or third rental property. They arent going to want change anything.

Its rotten to the core.

So, how so we fix it? First of all stop giving out 13,500 visas when we don't have the infrastructure.

All these 13,500 are competing with locals on rental. That 13,500 is controlable. Its a decision made by our government.

That's only non EAA visas. It doesnt even account for anyone moving to Ireland within Europe.

This is not a critique of students or freely moving around Europe. This is a critique of greedy politicians.

genericgoon

In the long run, public (not social) housing on cost-rental (i.e. where rent set to cover development/maintenance cost) basis delivered by Approved Housing Bodies. Model works well in other countries and already has decent level of support in Irish political scene despite the greater political rewards of giving houses away on the cheap. Would be a natural complement to HAP going forward too to make that more circular in terms of public housing provision and g'tee a supply of tenants. But importantly scheme should be open to everyone w/o principal residence to ensure long-term broad support.

In short term, an aggressive tax credit approach may make an impact in RPZs. Offer tax credit equivalent to effective tax rate of 0-25% on rental income if a number of tenancy and rent value conditions met.

Opportunity to shake-up market by tying the credit to a "standard" contract which would have conditions such as deposits being held by a third party, remove the unilateral spurious reasons for termination (family, renovation) and longer eviction notice periods. In terms of rent levels, would set at X% (say 15-20%) of median income (per capita not household since renters disproportionately single) in that local authority with a ceiling amount compared to national median income (say 30%) to prevent too high divergences.

As quid pro quo (alongside the credit), could have a fast track RTB process for evictions with these tenancies (arguing is appropriate since contract fair & standardized) where rent is not paid. So landlords see a quicker resolution but tenants are getting the additional regulatory mechanism of Revenue clawbacks if the conditions of receiving the credit (as outlined in the "standard" contract) were not adhered to.

If you really wanted to juice things you could have credit be greater for early adopters and where rent pressure is highest and taper as time/improvement occurs but then have the grandfathered rate only being kept if stay in the program on a continuous basis without breaks (allowing for reasonable time to find new tenant). This whole contract approach can then be applied to the cost rental housing (with state subvention if cost rental > median income) thus bringing market hopefully to more mature rental model seen elsewhere.

Mad_maxx

incentivise all that money sitting in savings accounts earning next to nothing , direct it towards building houses , this means making it possible to evict rogue tenants

i dont mean that everyone with a fat savings account needs or wants to roll up their sleeves and become landlords but the money the thing could be done through some sort of pension plan

Smouse156

Dav010 wrote: »

Three questions about this, firstly, where would the money come from to build tens/hundreds of thousands of properties? Secondly, the new maternity hospital is an example of what happens when the government gets involved in large construction projects. Thirdly, would you be concerned about another Ballymun flats-type scenario if the Government got into a large scale housing project to provide free/affordable housing to those that need it?

Firstly money would come from European development bank or to increase borrowing now before the EU tightens up the borrowing rules.

Secondly, the development of the hospital by BAM should yield lessons, however, very few companies actually had the skills etc to build this project. Housing is a far simpler prospect.

Thirdly I’m not advocating for mass social, just mass building with a 90/10 or even 80/20 non-social/social mix.

They profits they could make on the sales would cover the costs and even make profits since their finance costs are close to zero. The only downside is they give up some useless land that isn’t doing anything currently

There are other issues clearly but if there was an actual will there to do this they would...sadly there isnt

ED E

Ireland has a hangup about evictions due to our past, fixing it is political suicide. Won't happen.

Dav010

Smouse156 wrote: »

Firstly money would come from European development bank or to increase borrowing now before the EU tightens up the borrowing rules.

Secondly, the development of the hospital by BAM should yield lessons, however, very few companies actually had the skills etc to build this project. Housing is a far simpler prospect.

Thirdly I’m not advocating for mass social, just mass building with a 90/10 or even 80/20 non-social/social mix.

They profits they could make on the sales would cover the costs and even make profits since their finance costs are close to zero. The only downside is they give up some useless land that isn’t doing anything currently

There are other issues clearly but if there was an actual will there to do this they would...sadly there isnt

And then wait for all the s**te when delays occur, costs overrun, people start objecting to planning, complaining that the prices are too high, that the Government is profiting from housing same as greedy developers, and that more housing should be used for social housing etc.

What happens if people don’t want to live there and they remain unsold?

But you are right, that is just what we need, to borrow another couple of billion and wait for the contractors to start screwing the State. Good plan.

Smouse156

Dav010 wrote: »

And then wait for all the s**te when delays occur, costs overrun, people start objecting to planning, complaining that the prices are too high, that the Government is profiting from housing same as greedy developers, and that more housing should be used for social housing etc.

What happens if people don’t want to live there and they remain unsold?

But you are right, that is just what we need, to borrow another couple of billion and wait for the contractors to start screwing the State. Good plan.

Despite your idiotic comments what I have suggested is the right thing to do! Houses unsold?? Have you seen the current supply? The whinging could be ignored in a similar way to the large developments that bypass the council.

If you read what I said, I claimed if the state this they would make a decent profit and repay those billions.

But as a delusional landlord like yourself that believes rents haven’t dropped in Dublin over the last year, is clearly someone that hasn’t a clue so no point in talking to you anyway.

Dav010

"Smouse156 wrote: »

If you read what I said, I claimed if the state this they would make a decent profit and repay those billions.

Cause that’s the way property speculation always works, when you are building tens of thousands of houses/apartments at €300k plus each.

Smouse156

Dav010 wrote: »

Cause that’s the way property speculation always works, when you are building tens of thousands of houses/apartments at €300k plus each.

They can borrow at zero percent. They can wait out any unsold houses or allocate to the massive social housing list. It would be great if an oversupply was our pressing issue

the_syco

daheff wrote: »

Rules on how much rent can be (function of renter's income)

How about rules on how much tax the landlord has to pay based on the renters income?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

why would we result back to failed developments such as ballymun!

The issues in Ballymun flats happened because the government stopped funding maintenance.

If no-one supplies tax to fund the maintenance in their locality, what do you think will happen?

Turquoise Hexagon Sun wrote: »

Reduce the number of student visas from non EEA areas.

The colleges get a lot of money from said students, as they have to pay the college the full amount of their fees.

Smouse156 wrote: »

Have you seen the current supply?

You mean "Have you seen the current supply near Dublin?"
Where the prices stay high.

Smouse156 wrote: »

They can borrow at zero percent. They can wait out any unsold houses or allocate to the massive social housing list. It would be great if an oversupply was our pressing issue

As Ireland has an issue evicting people who don't pay their mortgages, no-one will lend Ireland money to build houses at zero percent.

Meathman12

Changing rules in some local authorities where a brother and sister can't share a bedroom might help.

the_syco

Meathman12 wrote: »

Changing rules in some local authorities where a brother and sister can't share a bedroom might help.

If they're over a certain amount of years old, they must have separate bedrooms. Think it's 12 years old.

Or do you think a 9 year old girl and her 16 year old brother is totally okay in sleeping in the same bedroom?

Meathman12

the_syco wrote: »

If they're over a certain amount of years old, they must have separate bedrooms. Think it's 12 years old.

Or do you think a 9 year old girl and her 16 year old brother is totally okay in sleeping in the same bedroom?

It seems to be ok when the home is owned by the family.


How to solve housing problem
Incentivise owners of empty units to have them occupied. That might mean improved taxation or improved landlord rights.

Build highrise
Developers say financing is impossible.
Will private homeowners buy into high rise when they could have undesirable neighbours?
Benefits of high rise includes higher population density.
This may lead to better services in the area.

Better infrastructure outside the cities.

All have been mentioned in media before I think.

Government buildings

You would want to be insane to get into the rental property business in Ireland. If you do, you are really losing your control over your property. You can get into the business, but it's very hard to get out. You lose more control with each new rule imposed by Government. It will soon be that when you rent, you cede ownership.