Change to charter that is highly offensive and provocative

Smee_Again

Panch18 wrote: »

There is no such thing as cruelty free sausages or burgers or whatever

Isn't that the issue?

Panch18

anewme wrote: »

I think your problem Panch is that you are aligning everyone's views with Peta and their definitions.

Other posters have posted links of where foods and other products are described as cruelty free.

Our local Animal Rescue sells cruelty-free eggs. Basically, these are hens rescued from battery farms now left to roam. The money received from the cruelty-free eggs feeds and looks after the hens. I get what she means by cruelty free and I don't have a problem with them being described as such. I am happy to support and eat the eggs.

There is so much cruelty to animals in our Country, even dogs now are farmed commodities, that sometimes the cruelty free choice might just be the less cruel option.

Everyone is on a different stage of their journey, there is no right and wrong answer, there is no set definition. I think you will find that the majority of people in the V&V forum are not extremeists and just trying to live their life a bit better, according to their own moral compass.

Just on your point of no right and wrong, no set definitions.

Actually there are - they is a whole host of rules and laws that are introduced by Irish government, EU, US agencies etc etc that limit and prohibit what you can and call food iems.

The most commonly used example is that nobody can produce champagne unless they are in the designated geographical area of France

Things like cruelty are clearly defined in law - and people can be prosecuted as such against this law - not just farmers but anybody inflicting cruelty on an animal.

So it is totally wrong to say there are no definitions.

You should note that the current thread in the V&V forum on Oat Milk/Drink is breaking the law by referring to it as Milk, along with all the other substitutes such as Almond, soya or whatever.

The EU is crystal clear on this and has a specific regulation on it and these items are not allowed to be called milk. (Regulation 1308/2013 if you don't believe me).

FYI the EU defines "Milk" as meaning exclusively the normal mammary secretion obtained from one or more milkings without either addition thereto or extraction there from.

So really that thread should be cleaned up to remove all references to milk. Even the common brand referred to in the thread, Oatley" is called drink and not milk (much to their disgust)

It's easy to play fast and loose with language and say it's part of our beliefs - but your beliefs don't trump the laws of the land - no matter how much you want them to

Referring back to Cruelty Free - I have yet to see a brand of sausage or burger (or whatever really) openly promote themselves as "cruelty free" and have it on their packaging as cruelty free

Would be great if someone could show us a link to such a product and the term cruelty free on the package

osarusan

Panch18 wrote: »

Referring back to Cruelty Free - I have yet to see a brand of sausage or burger (or whatever really) openly promote themselves as "cruelty free" and have it on their packaging as cruelty free

Would be great if someone could show us a link to such a product and the term cruelty free on the package

Took me literally 30 seconds:

anewme

But that is actually the point. Many of the people subscribing to the forum are not interested in all that crap.

They are just people wanting to look into a healther lifestyle and are exploring their options.

Being force fed (pardon the pun) all of this aggressive, you are this that and the other, you are a dog hater, is not helpful.

If I deem Denny sausages to be cruelty free, then that is my perrogative.

I drink Oat milk and I call it oat milk. The fact you are saying having a thread on Oat milk calling it oat milk is breaking the law is bizarre.

Who cares - live and let live.

Not everyone is hung up on definitions.

And one size does not fit all.

The V&V thread will never be allowed as a knowledge bank for those with an interest in it if there is the constant stop calling Oat Milk, Oat Milk childish tantrums.

Its like when Jake Stephens (in his jobsworth character) went into the Bakery in Ballyfermot and told them they could not call Vienna Rolls, Vienna Rolls, because they were made in Ballyfermot, they must be called Ballyfermot Rolls.

anewme

This shop calls itself the Cruelty Free Shop.

https://www.thecrueltyfreeshop.co.nz/what-is-cruelty-free

Mickeroo

Ok guys, i think this thread is at the point where it's served its original purpose.

A compromise has been reached and the V&V charter will be reworded which will hopefully allow the rehabilitation of the forum to continue on track.

I hope folks will realise the original wording in the charter was made with the best intentions and insulting or denigrating anyone was never the plan.

Thanks for the feedback everyone, regardless of which side of the fence you are on.

Boards.ie: Niamh

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to this thread, in particular to the Cmods and Admins who bore the brunt of a lot of anger from both sides.

It is never an easy situation to get in the middle of two groups who are at odds with each other and to try to find a reasonable resolution which I think has been reached now as regards the charter in the V&V forum. It would be wonderful if both sides could embrace the resolution with the goodwill that was intended. As always, if you see something that goes against a charter or site rules in any forum, report it and give the mods a reasonable amount of time to deal with it, they are not online all day every day.

Although I am neither a vegan/vegetarian nor a farmer, I do see both sides of this issue. I can see why there can be anger on both sides and in particular why some would feel attacked by discussions or words used in certain contexts.

It is natural when setting up a new forum charter to take into account the wishes and viewpoints of the regular users, in this case vegans and vegetarians, however now that outside opinions have been heard as well it has been updated to reflect a wider audience.

I understand that some people feel that some cards or infractions given during discussion of this issue should be rescinded now that it is resolved. Users are infracted for breaking the rules and I don't see that reaching a resolution on an issue will have negated posts that contravened site rules or a charter but anyone who wants to is welcome to appeal their card or forum ban in the Dispute Resolution forum in the usual way if they feel it was unfair.

In addition, if you have any other feedback to give about a forum and how it is being moderated or run the very first port of call is the forum mods. If there is no resolution and you need to speak to someone else, you can contact the Cmod of the forum and/or you can post in Help Desk about it. This is the site procedure and always has been, it is there for a reason so please follow it.

Hopefully the Vegan & Vegetarian forum can exist in a harmony of sorts now, particularly with the extra mod hands to keep things on track. Many thanks again to those who gave a huge amount of their time to this issue and to everyone who contributed their suggestions and ideas.

Thanks for reading,
Niamh.