New (used) car in bad shape - next steps?

Bawnmore

Looking for some opinions here as not sure what the smart next move is.

We bought used Qashqai from a garage a few weeks ago which has turned into a nightmare. It wasn't massive money (3.5k) and they had taken it as a trade in and given it a look over. No warranty - as good as a private sale I guess. He mentioned that they took it in, gave it a good look over and replaced tyres (which are new) and a few suspension parts to bring it up to good order before selling.

When I was driving the kids to school yesterday morning I noticed there was no power going up a hill and after driving it a little longer it felt like the turbo wasn't engaging. Brought it to my mechanic yesterday who checked it out this morning and reckons the turbo is gone. He also mentioned that he's not sure if it's worth replacing as there are so many other things wrong he can see with it from jobs that have been bodged (no cover on timing belt from when it was changed last, a sponge (:() cable tied somewhere to collect oil, oil all over the timing belt and surrounding area that wasn't there when we bought it etc). I'm going up to him to talk through it later, but trying to figure out what our next steps are. So my questions are:

1. Is there any point in talking to the garage that sold it? It wasn't sold with warranty (not that it was mentioned specifically or anything) so is it just a case of tough **** on our part?
2. Is there any responsibility on the garage for selling a car that went bad 2 weeks later? I guess this is almost the same question as above and I really just don't know.
3. In the same situation, is there any merit in trying to source a replacement engine? What would we be talking here? 2k to source and replace?

I have a feeling it might just be caveat emptor and a hard lesson learned, but just looking for opinions on if it's any different as a garage sold it. Also trying figure out what we do (fix or start fresh) as we're down to only a classic car that I won't bring the kids to school in at the moment for safety reasons.

Any opinions at all welcome.

colm_mcm

Aside from any warranty, you have consumer rights.

Bawnmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

Aside from any warranty, you have consumer rights.

Without meaning to sound like a simpleton, what would that mean for us in this scenario?

clintondaly

Have a read here

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/cars/your-rights-if-things-go-wrong/

Bawnmore

clintondaly wrote: »

Have a read here

https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/cars/your-rights-if-things-go-wrong/

Thanks - I've had a read through that. Is there a way to know if it was sold through the garage or privately? I bought it at the garage, signed the log book inside the reception etc. but I'm assuming these don't mean anything really.

clintondaly

Have you a signed or company headed receipt ?

colm_mcm

Bawnmore wrote: »

Without meaning to sound like a simpleton, what would that mean for us in this scenario?

It means that if a garage was giving 3/6/12 months warranty, it’s usually to cover any issues the car might develop. This is in addition to your consumer rights.


Your consumer rights would mean you should be buying something that is fit for purpose and as described etc.

I would suspect the garage would say you don’t have a warranty, which is why you need to be ready to counter that statement and argue that the car has a heap of preexisting issues that should have been sorted presale. Tell them that the car is not to an acceptable standard, you have no interest in them attempting to repair it and at this point you’d be happy to get a refund and move on.

Bawnmore

clintondaly wrote: »

Have you a signed or company headed receipt ?

No - the only thing I signed in this case was the log book.

pm1977x

Don't accept being sold a lemon, give it back and get your money back.

Bawnmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

It means that if a garage was giving 3/6/12 months warranty, it’s usually to cover any issues the car might develop. This is in addition to your consumer rights.


Your consumer rights would mean you should be buying something that is fit for purpose and as described etc.

I would suspect the garage would say you don’t have a warranty, which is why you need to be ready to counter that statement and argue that the car has a heap of preexisting issues that should have been sorted presale. Tell them that the car is not to an acceptable standard, you have no interest in them attempting to repair it and at this point you’d be happy to get a refund and move on.

This is pretty much what I was hoping/expecting, but I didn't know if it was just tough luck on our part or not. Is this only the case if the deal was done with the garage (e.g. signed on headed paper as above) or is it assumed that the deal was done with the garage because it was at the garage and with the owner of the garage?

colm_mcm

I’d go on that basis.


One thing to note is that the garage has the right to try and repair the issues rather than refund.

Smee_Again

Bawnmore wrote: »

This is pretty much what I was hoping/expecting, but I didn't know if it was just tough luck on our part or not. Is this only the case if the deal was done with the garage (e.g. signed on headed paper as above) or is it assumed that the deal was done with the garage because it was at the garage and with the owner of the garage?

If you bought the car at the physical garage and were dealing with the garage owner, paid there etc then I think it would be safe to assume you were buying from the garage unless it was clearly stated it was a private sale.

The fact that it was stated there was no warranty instead of it being a private sale would add more weight to that too.

How did you pay? Cash, card cheque, bank transfer etc and did you get any receipt?

Bawnmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

I’d go on that basis.


One thing to note is that the garage has the right to try and repair the issues rather than refund.

Do we have the right to refuse? Or do we need to let them if offered?

biko

What year is the car you bought?

It is definitely worth speaking to the dealership. Give them a chance to fix the issues found.

Bawnmore

biko wrote: »

What year is the car you bought?

It is definitely worth speaking to the dealership. Give them a chance to fix the issues found.

I'd be open to them being fixed for sure - I just want to have all my ducks in a row before I speak with them. It's not a new car by any means - 2010.

biko

Bawnmore wrote: »

Do we have the right to refuse? Or do we need to let them if offered?

They have the right to repair. Once you have told them about the issue there could be repair, refund or replace, or neither.
It depends on if the issue falls within scope where they must act.




^^^ this is not legal advice nor is any advice you get on boards. We all just do best guesses.

Bawnmore

Smee_Again wrote: »

If you bought the car at the physical garage and were dealing with the garage owner, paid there etc then I think it would be safe to assume you were buying from the garage unless it was clearly stated it was a private sale.

The fact that it was stated there was no warranty instead of it being a private sale would add more weight to that too.

How did you pay? Cash, card cheque, bank transfer etc and did you get any receipt?

Paid in cash, no receipt. Seems stupid now, but never for a second would have occurred to me at the time.

colm_mcm

Bawnmore wrote: »

Do we have the right to refuse? Or do we need to let them if offered?

To my knowledge it’s up to them which to do.
I would go on the basis of
“Look I think ye got caught out on this car,
there’s obviously a lot wrong with it that ye missed.
ye can sell it in the trade or fix it up and retail it again,
it’s probably not worth your while fixing all the issues with it by the book,
but I don’t want it, given what I’ve seen.
I don’t want to have to go down the legal route for a €3500 car,
I bought this because you’re local etc etc”

drunkmonkey

Bawnmore wrote: »

Paid in cash, no receipt. Seems stupid now, but never for a second would have occurred to me at the time.

Are you in the motor trade? If not a garage can not trade sale you a car, i.e no warranty. They have to stand over it. They can fix it or give you the money back.

Bawnmore

OK thanks folks - I'm certainly a little more informed now that I was an hour ago - appreciate the quick responses too.

As a starting point, I'm going to meet my own mechanic this evening for a run through of the issues so I know what I'm looking at. I'll then call the garage that I bought it from and see what they say. Hopefully they're reasonable - he didn't strike me as shady, but could certainly be wrong there I guess. The garage has nothing but good reviews on Google/Facebook so hopefully that's indicative of how they operate in general.

Bawnmore

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Are you in the motor trade? If not a garage can not trade sale you a car, i.e no warranty. They have to stand over it. They can fix it or give you the money back.

No, I'm not in the motor trade at all. I'm in web development. That's good to know.

biko

When you buy a car from a person whose profession it is to sell cars you are covered by the consumer rights for car sales.

Bawnmore

Thanks again - I'm going to speak with my mechanic this evening and call the garage tomorrow morning. Will update here in any case when I know more.

Bawnmore

Bawnmore wrote: »

................Brought it to my mechanic yesterday who checked it out this morning and reckons the turbo is gone. He also mentioned that he's not sure if it's worth replacing as there are so many other things wrong he can see with it from jobs that have been bodged (no cover on timing belt from when it was changed last, a sponge (:() cable tied somewhere to collect oil, oil all over the timing belt and surrounding area that wasn't there when we bought it etc). I'm going up to him to talk through it later, but trying to figure out what our next steps are. So my questions are:....................

Bawnmore wrote: »

....................... I'll then call the garage that I bought it from and see what they say. Hopefully they're reasonable - he didn't strike me as shady, but could certainly be wrong there I guess. The garage has nothing but good reviews on Google/Facebook so hopefully that's indicative of how they operate in general.

Call down in person would be my advice. Too easy to be told "I'll ring you back later" or something like that. A call in person is best.
€3500 for a 2010 qashqai is plenty to expect it to be tip top.

ba_barabus

Turbo issue actually sounds more like the turbo actuator has failed, not a big job at all but I appreciate the question relates to other issues

colm_mcm

Augeo wrote: »

Call down in person would be my advice. Too easy to be told "I'll ring you back later" or something like that. A call in person is best.
€3500 for a 2010 qashqai is plenty to expect it to be tip top.

€3500 is very much on the low end, especially from a dealer.

Bawnmore

I spoke with mechanic more yesterday evening - without pulling it apart further, he reckons it's the turbo that's gone alright. There's play in the turbo and the oil which is all over the belts and surrounding area is oil from the turbo that's made it's way through the piping and into the intercooler.

His bigger concern is with other bits and pieces that have been bodged together like:

- Timing belt tippex (I know) says timing belt was done 8k ago, and belt cover was never replaced. So timing belt itself is exposed.
- Sponge cabled tied to the lower part of the engine (his best guess to catch oil).
- Wrong length bolts used and bolts missing from the head of the engine (could be using wrong term here but the top part of the engine). One case of a bolt that's too long with a nut underneath it to make up for extra length.

I checked the log book and it's just over a month since we bought it - assuming consumer rights still apply? Also one thing that's worth checking is that it wasn't from a dealer (I see dealer mentioned above), it was from a garage e.g. who's main business would be fixing cars, not selling cars - does this matter? Going to call later this morning - they're an hour away so dropping in isn't as easy for initial contact at least.

Cordell

If there's oil on the timing belt it needs to be replaced even if it's new.

Wrong length bolts used and bolts missing from the head of the engine

That, if true, is absolutely nuts.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

€3500 is very much on the low end, especially from a dealer.

Low end no doubt but it's still plenty to expect it to be perfectly roadworthy and without major issue, IMO.

Asking prices on 10 year old stuff from dealers is usually delirious and as many on here say there's little point in buying from dealers at that age point.

Bawnmore

Thanks folks - so 3 questions before I call:

1. Does it being a month ago rather than 2 weeks mean anything in relation to consumer rights?
2. With the garage being a garage (rather than a dealer), should we still be covered?
3. I've checked the original ad and the account is on Donedeal as a private seller. There are still some active ads, some for parts and some for vehicles. Does being noted as a private seller here mean anything or is a garage a garage regardless?

Apologies if any of the above seem like stupid questions - just want to get as much straight in my head before calling.

Bawnmore

Bawnmore wrote: »

.........

1. Does it being a month ago rather than 2 weeks mean anything in relation to consumer rights?.........

Nope

Bawnmore wrote: »

.........
2. With the garage being a garage (rather than a dealer), should we still be covered?....

Yes, and he's much better placed to sort the car also although he sounds like an ape so I'm not sure I'd want him to

Bawnmore wrote: »

.........
3. I've checked the original ad and the account is on Donedeal as a private seller. There are still some active ads, some for parts and some for vehicles. Does being noted as a private seller here mean anything or is a garage a garage regardless?
..........

I'm sure revenue wouldn't think so

I reckon he'll try and fob you off tbh so best to expect the worst.
- car is an unacceptable POS
- needs to be sorted or refunded
Stand your ground.

Bawnmore

OK so I spoke with the garage that sold it. Expectedly enough, he said that turbo's go and it's not really possible to tell when these things will happen. That's fair enough I think.

He said that they gave it a quick look over, but pretty much just sold it as they received it and weren't looking out for issues. Of the issues listed, he feels like there could be a valid reason for most, but he doesn't know without seeing them - timing belt cover taken off as they rattle sometimes (?), sponge to stop some rattling also possibly, he can't speak for wrong bolts).

But the general theme was he feels he sold it as seen, it was driving grand when he sold it and that our mechanic should just replace the turbo to get it going again. He said that if our mechanic didn't want to replace the turbo, he'd be happy to sort it for us. I told him our mechanic was suggested handing it back based on what he could see in a 2 hour check and he brought it back to being just a car they received in that they sold on immediately. Where I left it is that I'd take photos of the concerns and send them on to him, but I'm definitely not comfortable it's going a good direction.

clintondaly

It seems like it may get messy so.

Have you got a quote from your own mechanic on what's required to make it right ?
Maybe get a quote and see if you can get some money back off him that way if it seems its not going to be easy to resolve.
You are above small claims court threshold too.

Bawnmore

clintondaly wrote: »

It seems like it may get messy so.

Have you got a quote from your own mechanic on what's required to make it right ?
Maybe get a quote and see if you can get some money back off him that way if it seems its not going to be easy to resolve.
You are above small claims court threshold too.

No, I hadn't gone down that route yet. It's currently parked up at his garage waiting on whatever the next step might be. He's happy to continue to work on it but he just wanted to stop and flag that from what he can see, it hasn't been looked after and he has concerns that it's not a good indication for things to come. I'm not sure what my next move is to be honest.

Yeah, this unfortunately has disaster all over it.

bazz26

Dealers selling cars of this age and price range generally don't spend money on them for resale. They take them in, wash and hover them and sell them on for profit. I'd put money that they never lifted the bonnet once it drove and stopped ok when buying it.

Its of little help now to the OP but might be helpful to others reading this thread, people need to have their mechanic check the car over before they buy rather than afterwards. In the OP's case their mechanic would have prevented them from buying this car rather than not having to battle the dealer to fix it or give you your money back now. People also need to educate themselves around asking questions about warranties before buying. A dealer selling a car to the general public "sold as seen" tells me that they have no confidence in the car nor do they want you coming back to them with it.

The OP also now has to think about how much time and effort they want to spend on pursuing this through the legal/consumer rights route which can be a complete grey area around getting any sort of satisfactory result out of this. Alot of these small time Charlie type dealers even when they have court rulings against them, can be very slow to resolve issues, they will drag their heals and frustrate you even more hoping that you just give up and go away eventually.

Bawnmore

Thanks again for the opinions - certainly feeling less hopeful now than yesterday. Going to get some photos this evening and take it from there I guess.

Bawnmore

Here's the photos for anyone interested:

Bolt with Nut

Not sure if this shows enough to understand what it is. It shows the bolt, the nut and the gap with the threaded part of the bolt underneath.



Sponge

Would there be any legitimate reason for this to be here? The seller mentioned possibly to stop a rattle.



Sponge Again



Timing Belt with No Cover



Bolt Missing

emeldc

That second pic with the sponge shows a broken casing of some sort. WTF. :eek:

Edit: and is the mount cracked in the last pic, whatever about the missing bolt.

Bawnmore

emeldc wrote: »

That second pic with the sponge shows a broken casing of some sort. WTF. :eek:

I'm not sure what that is actually, just that it was taken from underneath. Looks to be plastic casing possibly from the way it's sheared there, but I've no idea as it wasn't on the lift when I saw it in person.

mickdw

I dont know who sold it but they have not a leg to stand on there.
Its thrown together. I suspect you are dealing with absolute dodgy dealer who will claim he never sold it

ba_barabus

First pic looks like an engine mount bolt, they possibly threaded it and added the extra nut to close the gap.

To me the sponge looks like its there to stop the plastic (engine cover?) hitting off the engine creating the rattle he was talking about. Oil on the belt, no excuse for that tbh, nor the rest for that matter.

Missing bolt, I've no idea tbh.

All looks like it can be rectified but at what cost I've no idea. I fear you've been done.

You need to figure out how much this will cost now and go from there but I suspect if you fight it it'll take a while to sort.

There was a thread here from someone who bought a cheap Saab and brought it all the way out of principle. I think they outlined what they did, might be worth a search.

Toyotafanboi

Lord Jaysis that's a henhouse, the timing cover missing, that engine mount is shocking. Every inch of the engine soaked in oil, bumper held on with cable ties. Looks like it was absolutely ****ed back together at some point in it's life.

Bawnmore

OK so here's where I am - the seller isn't willing to just take the car back as it is. As far as he's concerned, turbo's fail sometimes and it's unfortunate but ultimately not his problem. I don't disagree with this in fairness, it could just be bad timing but I have no reason to believe that he shifted it on intentionally as a ticking timebomb.

He can see where I'm coming from with the rest of the issues - his side is that he just took it in as a trade in and sold it off immediately as seen. I'm probably too trusting in general, but I don't get the feeling that he tried to, or is trying to, screw me intentionally. I could be wrong here, but it doesn't feel like that.

What he's offered (and I haven't accepted, just looking into it) is that he'll give me what I paid for it if I return it driving the same as it was, which means replacing the turbo. I asked him based on his experience what would it take labour wise and he reckoned €100 - €200 which seems low to me, but I don't know. He also said he'd split the difference of the total cost (parts + labour) with me. This might sound stupid, but to me it sounds tempting - it's causing us an unreasonable amount of stress at the moment (kids out of school for the 2nd half of last week and needed to rent a car this week) and it feels like an opportunity to get most of our money back and buy another car.

So my 2 options as I would see it are:

1. Go down the route above - I've called all of the salvage yards I know and there's surprisingly few around. There's one in a 4x4 breakers in Tuam for €200, otherwise €280 for reconditioned and we provide our broken one. Our mechanic could do it Thursday, but isn't sure how long it will take as it's located at the back of the engine, so likely needs subframe dropped. Is there any way to get any idea of what it would take in labour even? Is it a few hours/days?

2. See if the seller would entertain my buying the part and him doing the labour. I have a feeling he won't, as it would be him making the assumption that it is the turbo gone based on what our mechanic has said. It would also mean trailering the car an hour away which I can do but is an additional pain.

I'm not sure what I'm looking for here - there seems to have been some knowledgeable opinions up to here, so just a sounding board I guess.

Cordell

sold it off immediately as seen

Sold as seen is something that can be claimed in a private sale, you got it from a garage.

What he's offered (and I haven't accepted, just looking into it) is that he'll give me what I paid for it if I return it driving the same as it was, which means replacing the turbo. I asked him based on his experience what would it take labour wise and he reckoned €100 - €200 which seems low to me

Maybe suggest getting your money back less 100-200 for the turbo, surely it's all the same to him?

Bawnmore

Cordell wrote: »

Maybe suggest getting your money back less 100-200 for the turbo, surely it's all the same to him?

Might be worth suggesting, but again he'd be assuming that the turbo being gone is what's wrong based on our mechanics diagnosis which leaves him open. That's a guess on my part, not something he said.

Bawnmore

Cordell wrote: »

Sold as seen is something that can be claimed in a private sale, you got it from a garage.

I guess so, but again that's really only related to the other pieces which have been pointed out after the turbo went.

I assume it's fair to say that a turbo could be fine, and then die a month later with no way of knowing it was going to happen - is that a fair statement? And if so then should it be his problem, just because he sold it? I'm not meaning to defend him here, I just don't know the answer so trying to play devils advocate to myself.

What I think I want is the easiest way out without getting burned entirely. If the cost of labour was going to be roughly €200 then:

- €200 for parts
- €200 for labour

€200 quid each and I can go back to looking forward to Christmas. But if it was going to €600 for labour then I need to stop going down this route and think of something else.

ba_barabus

If you could bodge it and get it over to him running i would and take your money.

You've no obligation to fix it for him.

He's making a mug out of you for a second time.

clintondaly

As hard as it sounds I agree with the statement above

What if you taking on the turbo opens up more issues, what do you do then ? Something to be considered.

I also think if you interfere with the car it gives him more reason not to take it back.

bazz26

He is seeing you as a soft touch OP because you probably want to avoid getting tough with him. He sold you a car with a turbo that was on it's way out (they don't just go sometimes as he claims) and now he wants you to spend money on a replacement so that he can give you your money back and sell the car on with the problem sorted to someone else.

The way I see it, you have a few choices:
1. Get the car fixed yourself, keep it or sell it on and learn from this experience.
2. Spend money on a second hand turbo and return the car and hope he gives you your money back or doesn't try to knock anything off for things he magically finds wrong with it that were not there when he sold it too you.
3. Be prepared to for a long battle trying to get some satisfaction in the small claims court for he to cover the repair work. It costs €25 to lodge a claim through the small claims court but worth getting some free legal advice first from the citizens advise bureau about where you stand legally before taking this option.

Any turbo replacement is ideally done knowing what was the root cause and fixing that also.

Is your mechanic confident that it's the turbo and only the turbo that needs doing? Could easily be 400 labour.... If so you are down the guts of a grand. I'm not sure your mechanic is overly interested in getting involved in this mess either as he could do the work but car might still run like sh1t..

I'd be going back to the seller saying its unacceptable for him not to stand over the car he sold a month ago.... Ask him what's his best offer to take it as is.... If it's 3k or more I'd take it unless you fancy the legal route. Personally the legal route is a non runner IMO due to pain in the hole factor.... Time cost & inconvenience etc etc.

There's no easy and legal way to sort this without you losing money.... If the car is in good physical condition is might be worth fixing & keeping but impossible to gauge how much is wrong with it really.