LC "reform" to match the new JC "reform"?

gaiscioch

Having recently seen a sample new JC paper for my subject I'm much more concerned at how dumbed down the new "reformed" JC is, and I just don't want to imagine how dumbed down any new LC will be.

It would be inspiring to think any reformed LC would be academically more challenging, but given how academically emaciated the new JC is, it seems like wishful thinking.

The gulf between both standards is unsustainable - kids are going to drown in the leap into current 5th-year academic standards after this new JC academic standard.

I think we all should be very worried about how waffly and vacuous any matching new LC will have to be to complement the new waffly JC. I fear our voices will be lost, especially while we still have two unions for the government to implement divide and conquer strategies.

Does anybody know what the Dept. is planning to do to reduce the academic gulf between the LC standard and the new JC?

amacca

gaiscioch wrote: »

Does anybody know what the Dept. is planning to do to reduce the academic gulf between the LC standard and the new JC?

I don't know but tbh I think you have answered your own question in the rest of your post

The only feasible solution will be to "reform" the LC and dilute it similarly as well. I think the new JC is pile of horse****/reform for the sake of reform or reform because the boys at the top have to do or be seen to do something to justify their existence.

spurious

'Money, Money, Money' as the Swedish philosophers said.

The new common level JC papers should be interesting in a world where a sizeable number of children struggled with the OL paper and at the same time another large group rattled off almost perfect scripts at HL.

shesty

When I went to college in 2001, the college was seriously concerned about the jump from LC standard to college work (particularly maths -I did engineering).
Went back to do a Masters in 2012 and they had a dedicated maths centre in the college, basically a grinds resource centre with staff and resources to bring first years up to college level standards, as so many were struggling.It seems this is common in many of the biggest colleges now - the one I attended is one of the biggest in the country (if not the biggest).
I dread to think what state of an education my own kids are going to get by the time they make it to secondary school.

solerina

I have noticed that students in the main are less willing to actually put in the hours required to attain LC standard as we used to know it, you only have to look at recent marking schemes to see how front loaded the marks are (in many instances) just to bring up the numbers able to pass the paper. I don’t want to see the LC dumbed down to match up to the new Jc (which is a total joke) but I think it’s inevitable

RealJohn

gaiscioch wrote: »

Does anybody know what the Dept. is planning to do to reduce the academic gulf between the LC standard and the new JC?

You know the answer to that. You've already given it yourself.

Genuine question to anyone who can answer it: has it ever happened that they've "reformed" any secondary school subject, either are junior or senior level, where they actually increased the amount of material and expected a higher standard of the students? If so, when?

Smacruairi

The reformed JC gaeilge has significantly added material, particularly around the literature side of things. In the old course, you could technically do one poem, one short story, focus on theme and character for both and you'd be fine. Now however they want kids to do a drama, a novel, 2short stories and 6 poems or songs.

Not one colleague who teaches Irish, nor student or parent, asked for this loading up of literature. Shows how reform takes **** all feedback into account, someone decides at the top and then it's PR to make it stick. The optional oral for jc used to encourage kids to stick with the language and they enjoyed being able to speak it. It's patently clear that they didn't want to pay for examiners for orals, and thus it was removed.

I fear that in the future the oral and practical exams for the lc will be removed, anything that costs extra will have to go in place of self assessment or other cheap pieces of paperwork to verify work.

spurious

RealJohn wrote: »

Genuine question to anyone who can answer it: has it ever happened that they've "reformed" any secondary school subject, either are junior or senior level, where they actually increased the amount of material and expected a higher standard of the students? If so, when?

About 18 years ago, I was involved in the second phase of the 'rebalancing' committees of the NCCA where we spent years revising and updating a syllabus only for our work to be binned. We had added to the syllabus as well as removing some of the out of date sections. We had allowed for the use of new technologies and a presumed assessment task (externally moderated).

I won't name the subject as 'walls have ears' but it was a minority subject with an integrated and practical approach. This year is/was its last year and almost every single school involved in it bemoans its loss, as there is no replacement for it.

There was some very good work done by the NCCA, by people actually involved in education, but then the bean counters got their hands on things and threw it all out.

Here's the interim report of the first phase of subjects: https://ncca.ie/media/1804/junior_cycle_review_interim_report_on_the_rebalancing_of_subject_syllabuses.pdf (.pdf)

RealJohn

Smacruairi wrote: »

The reformed JC gaeilge has significantly added material, particularly around the literature side of things. In the old course, you could technically do one poem, one short story, focus on theme and character for both and you'd be fine. Now however they want kids to do a drama, a novel, 2short stories and 6 poems or songs.

Not one colleague who teaches Irish, nor student or parent, asked for this loading up of literature. Shows how reform takes **** all feedback into account, someone decides at the top and then it's PR to make it stick. The optional oral for jc used to encourage kids to stick with the language and they enjoyed being able to speak it. It's patently clear that they didn't want to pay for examiners for orals, and thus it was removed.

I fear that in the future the oral and practical exams for the lc will be removed, anything that costs extra will have to go in place of self assessment or other cheap pieces of paperwork to verify work.

I’d heard that alright (though it doesn’t apply to the whole thing, does it? It’s different, depending on whether you’re in a Gaelcholáiste or not, I thought?) but that’s a separate issue at play - make Irish as hated as possible, even for students with good Irish, so there’s little resistance when it’s made optional.

Smacruairi

RealJohn wrote: »

I’d heard that alright (though it doesn’t apply to the whole thing, does it? It’s different, depending on whether you’re in a Gaelcholáiste or not, I thought?) but that’s a separate issue at play - make Irish as hated as possible, even for students with good Irish, so there’s little resistance when it’s made optional.

The same among of literature to be covered by both gaelscoileanna and English speaking, just different (ie more difficult) pieces for the gaelscoileanna.

But you're right, FG wanted Irish as optional, this is the way they go about it alright. It's not a fun course to teach at all.

Treppen

From the 'teachers are terrible says chief inspector' article in the other thread.

The scramble to design a calculated grades system after the Leaving Cert exam was cancelled in May due to Covid-19, had shown “the vulnerability of relying on one exam,” Mr Hislop said.

“If we had other modules of assessment ... over the course of the two year period, you wouldn’t have been relying on a single three hour exam, which we had to cancel,” he said. The experience was “an important lesson for looking at the review of senior cycle in the years to come,” he said.

It would appear that the NCCA have very little input into Curriculum and Assessment. They're obstructed as to what to write and research into education can take a running jump.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/investigation-needed-into-bullying-complaints-at-ncca-byrne/

shesty

Pity they wouldn't apply the same logic (as that in that article's comment) to the Health System.:mad:


We don't appear to be scrambling to fix the vulnerabilities in that particular area. Despite the fact that it is really the one that is wide open to future events such as this.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

From the 'teachers are terrible says chief inspector' article in the other thread.



It would appear that the NCCA have very little input into Curriculum and Assessment. They're obstructed as to what to write and research into education can take a running jump.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/investigation-needed-into-bullying-complaints-at-ncca-byrne/

Yep. A new syllabus was introduced in one of my subjects last year. I learned that it wasn't the 12-14 people on the NCCA committee for that subject that put the syllabus together as you might think, but one woman who works in private industry in this area. She wrote the syllabus (and presumably got paid to do it), the NCCA went through it for wording, and she moved on to another project before it even got into schools. There are a couple of things in it that aren't factually correct, one experiment that makes no sense in doing whatsoever, and one experiment that involves plants which realistically can be only sourced from one plant breeder in America (and possibly are genetically modified so banned here). I shit you not. So I'm a bit confused as to what the role of the NCCA is now.

spurious

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So I'm a bit confused as to what the role of the NCCA is now.

They seem to have been sidetracked completely.
The 'rebalancing' never really happened and suddenly it was all about 'reform'.

I know a lot of what they did (do?) was airy fairy thinktank stuff, but at least it came from an informed educational background, with the objective of improving the system and childrens' experiences of it.

Mardy Bum

The most important reform principle is that it should cost less than it does now. This explains everything about education reform in Ireland.

TheValeyard

DoE: we have successfully destroyed the JC, now time to do the same to the LC.

Icsics

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The most important reform principle is that it should cost less than it does now. This explains everything about education reform in Ireland.

Yes and another reform principle is that it must generate as much extra work for the classroom teacher as possible, preferably pointless paperwork & meetings

2011abc

New JC Hons Maths .'Mary has 28 currants and wants to bake cookies which have 4 currants each how many can she bake ?' HONOURS!?

fed_u

The gap has really widened between the two. Third level is already a considerable jump before they go messing with it. I would love if some element could be done in 5th year and 20% or so awarded! I liked the idea of a CBA for my subjects but when they only get 10% for their reflection task it highlighted how wishy washy it was going to be. The sample papers were released and they get to write a letter in their Geography exam..

Grolschevik

2011abc wrote: »

New JC Hons Maths .'Mary has 28 currants and wants to bake cookies which have 4 currants each how many can she bake ?' HONOURS!?

It worries me that I don't know whether this is a joke or not.

2011abc

Grolschevik wrote: »

It worries me that I don't know whether this is a joke or not.

https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


Q2a

Grolschevik

2011abc wrote: »

https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


Q2a

Holy crap. Didn't that sort of stuff used to be done and dusted by about 4th class primary?

2011abc

Grolschevik wrote: »

Holy crap. Didn't that sort of stuff used to be done and dusted by about 4th class primary?

It still is I think!

amacca

2011abc wrote: »

https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


Q2a

My gf reckons they arent allowed teach them anything at primary given the way theyve been coming in the last couple of years

Imagine what 3rd level will be saying about the students they have coming in the gates a couple of years when LC reform goes through and if its similar to new JC.......no morevthan what they probably already say.

rainbowtrout

fed_u wrote: »

The gap has really widened between the two. Third level is already a considerable jump before they go messing with it. I would love if some element could be done in 5th year and 20% or so awarded! I liked the idea of a CBA for my subjects but when they only get 10% for their reflection task it highlighted how wishy washy it was going to be. The sample papers were released and they get to write a letter in their Geography exam..

WTF??????:eek::eek::eek::eek:

rainbowtrout

amacca wrote: »

My gf reckons they arent allowed teach them anything at primary given the way theyve been coming in the last couple of years

Imagine what 3rd level will be saying about the students they have coming in the gates a couple of years when LC reform goes through and if its similar to new JC.......no morevthan what they probably already say.

Ya I do wonder what exactly is going on at primary level that we are still teaching this stuff at second level. I'm not blaming primary teachers, they are delivering the course given to them, but what the fcuk is going on?

rainbowtrout

2011abc wrote: »

https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-4981496.pdf


Q2a

Lads, just looked up an old JC paper to check that I wasn't going mad.

This is from 2001.

Junior Certs would have a **** attack if they saw this. And it follows on from a whinge I had in my physics class today about logs.


Logs used to be on the JC maths course

https://www.examinations.ie/tmp/1605733536_9401367.pdf


Also remember, calculators were not allowed for JC maths back then.

2011abc

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya I do wonder what exactly is going on at primary level that we are still teaching this stuff at second level. I'm not blaming primary teachers, they are delivering the course given to them, but what the fcuk is going on?

Im a secondary teacher and feel its only fair to counterargue that many average to talented primary kids learn little or nothing new from us before JC

rainbowtrout

2011abc wrote: »

Im a secondary teacher and feel its only fair to counterargue that many average to talented primary kids learn little or nothing new from us before JC

I'd fully agree. I've said it on here several times, I reckon a decent 5th/6th class student could sit the JC science paper in its current format and pass it without ever having sat in a science class in secondary school.

The history teacher was showing me the new history paper at school today. Again another joke.

Blondini

I want you all to stand in order of your birthday, stick post-its to a flip chart, and look at the learning space through the lens of wellbeing.

Oh, and tick some boxes and make sure nobody "fails" (dirty word).

rainbowtrout

Blondini wrote: »

I want you all to stand in order of your birthday, stick post-its to a flip chart, and look at the learning space through the lens of wellbeing.

Oh, and tick some boxes and make sure nobody "fails" (dirty word).

Don't forget the ghost walk. :mad:

r93kaey5p2izun

Reformed History LC: The 2020 US Presidential election would have benefited from the use of Dotmocracy. Discuss.

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya I do wonder what exactly is going on at primary level that we are still teaching this stuff at second level. I'm not blaming primary teachers, they are delivering the course given to them, but what the fcuk is going on?

I think (without current experience so probably worthless but by listening to bits and pieces) teachers are less able to insist that students actually do what they are told. Its more about not hurting feelings and not fighting battles because the teacher is always wrong and theres f all real back up.

At least with a certain cohort that resist doing things like following instructions/procedure ....almost as if they have gotten away with it before and have an expectation of doing it again

Eg: take something like plotting a graph or bar chart, just the act of drawing a set of axes, scaling it appropriately, plotting coordinates etc......now you can do many and varied activities to help understand a graph etc but sooner or later students will need to be able to sit down and plot one accurately for themselves so you provide clear instruction and require each student to practice for themselves answer questions and give feedback

In the not so distant past that was mostly what happened with the odd issue you had to deal with but listening to whats coming back now theres are a much larger cohort of students that are more than capable of carrying out simple procedural tasks but choose not to or resist doing anything like what they are being asked to do for as long as possible......its boring, i dont have my copy, but you said, are we supposed to do that, I dont understand it (despite the fact I spent the entire time you explained it twice disrupting as many people as I could) etc.......the numbers that have some sort of an issue with doing what they are told, dont do it and use every excuse under the sun and continue to do so after interventions from disciplinary structures within school (with patents being called in etc) is just becoming overwhelming in a class situation and in my mind at least thats probably happening at primary..... its just too much something that could happen relatively efficiently if the teacher had more authority is being thwarted by a small (but I think the ranks are swelling) of students that do everything except what they should be doing because theres really f all you can do abput it without it having negative consequences for you rather than the students that have been let do what they want more or less unchallenged from when the behavioir first started.....multiply that by all the similar skills that require instruction and require the majority of students doing what they are told and exercising some self control....something thats becoming less common and you can see another reason for a new jc ....except I think if you lower the bar youll still find a group that will limbo under it rather than jump over it.

Going after the numbers involved is fast becoming unreasonable expectation to put on one person or even a school management but it was always going to be that way with the way autonomy, authority and standards have been slowly eroded/undermined.

Stuff like the new JC is just a symptom of a broader problem thats not going away no matter how hard its brushed under the carpet......

Either that or there are two streams in primary....the ones that actually do the work and the other one that spends it's time making paintings with potato halves while picking its nose and are told they are wonderful, never wrong and its character building to resist doing anything you are told to do.

r93kaey5p2izun

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd fully agree. I've said it on here several times, I reckon a decent 5th/6th class student could sit the JC science paper in its current format and pass it without ever having sat in a science class in secondary school..

Yes. And yet it is completely inaccessible to many students due to the literacy level required. It is the absolute worst type of exam - easy with zero effort for those with good natural academic ability and decent literacy, and far beyond many with literacy and learning difficulties no matter how hard they work.

Smacruairi

Too many spurious theories being pushed forward as a silver bullet.

Remember every guidance counsellor suddenly wanting us to teach to learning styles that don't exist.

Afl strategies like traffic lights and thumbs up rather than a teacher actually giving a proper blind test to see if students knew the material.

Wellbeing programmes to cater to anxiety issues caused by students worrying about never being confident about knowing anything fully because it's all self assessment or peer assessment.

Managing myself initiatives.... That are supervised by the class tutor.

Basically points to people not wanting to take responsibility for learning anymore - snakeoil salesmen like the JCT who push reflections rather than proper external assessments to quality control, and students and parents who don't want to sit down and do the boring grunt work of hard learning.

Polka_Dot

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd fully agree. I've said it on here several times, I reckon a decent 5th/6th class student could sit the JC science paper in its current format and pass it without ever having sat in a science class in secondary school.

The history teacher was showing me the new history paper at school today. Again another joke.

Agreed. The gap between JC science and any of the LC science subjects is ridiculous. I'm only a 2nd year PME but I gave my first year science class a test the other week where I asked for definitions. You should have seen the nonsense I got back from some of them. Now, it seems definitions are not a priority in the new JC as none of the sample/past papers have asked for them so in theory I shouldn't be worrying about it. But I'm of the opinion that in science, certain words mean very specific things, and when it comes to LC the marking schemes are so particular that it's best to drill this into them early. I'd hate for them to think they can get away with telling me that an organ is "a thing like your brain" only for them to get a shock in 5th year when they need to be much more specific.

gaiscioch

A DCU academic named Greg Foley wrote this very informative letter into The Irish Times earlier this month, highlighting the thinking behind the OECD view on education. The whole letter is worth reading, but it's fascinating that one person's educational philosophy could be so influential in how entire societies teach - especially a philosophy which doesn't prioritise knowledge as such.

Greg Foley, The OECD and Irish education

.... Obviously, the OECD looks at education from the perspective of economic development and growth but what else do we know about it? The first thing to know is that the key person in all of this is Dr Andreas Schleicher, director for the OECD directorate of education and skills, a statistician by training.

.... Dr Schleicher has a particular view of education that can be summed up in this quote from an interview in a Sydney newspaper: “We’re thinking about 2030, knowledge about maths and science is easy to digitise but the future is different, the modern world doesn’t reward us for what we know, we can get that from Google, but how we apply knowledge.”

The belief is that, in the age of Google, knowledge (retained in long-term memory) is rendered obsolete, and education should focus on developing the skills required to use knowledge that can be sourced from the internet in seconds.

Many eminent cognitive scientists and teachers disagree profoundly with Dr Schleicher’s view, including Daniel Willingham from the University of Virginia, Paul Kirschner of the Open University of the Netherlands, and countless others, including Daisy Christodoulou whose short book, Seven Myths about Education, is an essential read for all teachers. Indeed, I suspect that if you did a poll of third-level lecturers, you would find the vast majority would disagree with the premise that students don’t need to have lots of knowledge in their long-term memories because, as the saying goes, knowledge is what we actually think with....

am_zarathustra

gaiscioch wrote: »

A DCU academic named Greg Foley wrote this very informative letter into The Irish Times earlier this month, highlighting the thinking behind the OECD view on education. The whole letter is worth reading, but it's fascinating that one person's educational philosophy could be so influential in how entire societies teach - especially a philosophy which doesn't prioritise knowledge as such.

Greg Foley, The OECD and Irish education

Absolutely spot on. Without information that is learned to form complex frameworks or patterns to then apply to other situations critical thinking is impossible. Even in college the process by which scientist have made ground breaking discoveries is taught and hopefully learned, this is assimilated into a lens through which to view information over time. If your brain is full of opinions that are unfounded and memes you are unlikely to be able to critically assess health policy or decide if there lunatic you are listening to on youtube is a real expert. You have to have a feeling (and I use feeling as a shorthand for long, hard won judgement call based on experience) for what fits within the framework of knowledge you already possess to decide whether this new information may be confirmed or rejected. When it comes down to it I don't want my doctor deciding any drug dosage based on his opinion, I'd like him to follow the strict guidelines he learned how to apply and was accurately tested on being able to apply correctly.