BCMS opt in or opt out

silverwood

I have done a search for this but there doesn’t seem to be much up to date information.

I’ll be starting a new build in Cork early in the new year. My architect is trying to convince me to opt out of the BCMS process as it is a waste of money in his opinion. He says that over 80% of his clients opt out. I’m not so sure if this is the best course of action and I’m thinking of opting in as I’m concerned that not having the correct paperwork could affect me in the future. My engineer would be the assigned certifier if I go down this route (still waiting for a price for this).

My architect has said that if I opt out then the only paperwork he will provide at the end is an RIAI Opinion on Compliance which, he says, will be good enough for the future.

What’s the general consensus here?

mickdw

silverwood wrote: »

I have done a search for this but there doesn’t seem to be much up to date information.

I’ll be starting a new build in Cork early in the new year. My architect is trying to convince me to opt out of the BCMS process as it is a waste of money in his opinion. He says that over 80% of his clients opt out. I’m not so sure if this is the best course of action and I’m thinking of opting in as I’m concerned that not having the correct paperwork could affect me in the future. My engineer would be the assigned certifier if I go down this route (still waiting for a price for this).

My architect has said that if I opt out then the only paperwork he will provide at the end is an RIAI Opinion on Compliance which, he says, will be good enough for the future.

What’s the general consensus here?

Opt out.
It was specifically introduced for one off housing.
Ive certified a good few under opt out system and there is no issue in terms of mortgage or resale.
In my opinion, going assigned certifier route would be pointless.
You will still need to comply with all regs and will need engineer to detail structural aspects but I see no advantage in going for assigned certifier.

silverwood

Thanks for your input, that’s almost exactly what my architect says also.

ml100

silverwood wrote: »

Thanks for your input, that’s almost exactly what my architect says also.

That's interesting, my architect is the opposite to yours, he wants us to opt in, but then he would be the assigned certifier so he has skin in the game, he won't do tendering etc unless we opt in, if anyone knows a structural engineer that will be construction drawings and tendering etc in kildare, pm me!

dubrov

ml100 wrote:

That's interesting, my architect is the opposite to yours, he wants us to opt in, but then he would be the assigned certifier so he has skin in the game, he won't do tendering etc unless we opt in, if anyone knows a structural engineer that will be construction drawings and tendering etc in kildare, pm me!

The only reason to do it is if you think it will enhance the resale value of your house.

It won't

silverwood

ml100 wrote: »

That's interesting, my architect is the opposite to yours, he wants us to opt in, but then he would be the assigned certifier so he has skin in the game, he won't do tendering etc unless we opt in, if anyone knows a structural engineer that will be construction drawings and tendering etc in kildare, pm me!

Well my architect said he doesn't want to be assigned certifier if I chose to opt in so there is no financial benefit for him if I do so. He said that I would have to get my engineer to price for it if I insisted. The architect said he has no interest in doing it as the paperwork alone is apparently a nightmare for what is a one off private dwelling.

I think that I'm changing my mind and I'm leaning towards opting out at this stage.

sydthebeat

100% of our clients opt out.

If you've a certifying engineer for mortgage purposes, then your not getting anything more valuable with an opt in cert

ml100

silverwood wrote: »

Well my architect said he doesn't want to be assigned certifier if I chose to opt in so there is no financial benefit for him if I do so. He said that I would have to get my engineer to price for it if I insisted. The architect said he has no interest in doing it as the paperwork alone is apparently a nightmare for what is a one off private dwelling.

I think that I'm changing my mind and I'm leaning towards opting out at this stage.

I think my architect likes paperwork, well he likes to charge for it and get the young guy in the office to do it, I'm sure once they have done it a few times it's a lot of cut and paste!
If I could get a engineer to take over from him I will and opt out, it's hard to get people at the moment, not sure if I should want a few months until this covid backlog works it's way thru.

eoinzy2000

Opt in if you're happy to pay for the process of every material and designer involved in your building being documented and recorded and if anything goes awry, that you have a direct record of what is installed on file. It's the right way to go. Every material has to be compliant and approved before going into your building. Every house should be opt in, in my opinion. Opt out is a cop out. It just saves you a few grand. May cost you in the long run. May not, if your builder uses all certified products anyway. It may be legal, but theres nothing to stop banks preferring fully certified opt in building in future, for sales etc.

sydthebeat

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Opt in if you're happy to pay for the process of every material and designer involved in your building being documented and recorded and if anything goes awry, that you have a direct record of what is installed on file. It's the right way to go. Every material has to be compliant and approved before going into your building. Every house should be opt in, in my opinion. Opt out is a cop out. It just saves you a few grand. May cost you in the long run. May not, if your builder uses all certified products anyway. It may be legal, but theres nothing to stop banks preferring fully certified opt in building in future, for sales etc.

Use of non certified products is not allowed under part D.....

Nor allowed under part L certification

So no mortgage certifier is going to put their name to a opinion on compliance if non certified materials are used.

Assigned certificates are so watered down with ancillary certification so as to make any future redress a tapestry to be unwoven.....

eoinzy2000

silverwood wrote: »

Well my architect said he doesn't want to be assigned certifier if I chose to opt in so there is no financial benefit for him if I do so. He said that I would have to get my engineer to price for it if I insisted. The architect said he has no interest in doing it as the paperwork alone is apparently a nightmare for what is a one off private dwelling.

I think that I'm changing my mind and I'm leaning towards opting out at this stage.

How's it a nightmare if they are being paid accordingly. It's just work. If they don't want to do it, then drive on up the road.
Opt out is the same old 'self certified' Irish way of building like ****e and getting away with it. The old way is hard to kill off

eoinzy2000

sydthebeat wrote: »

Use of non certified products is not allowed under part D.....

Nor allowed under part L certification

So no mortgage certifier is going to put their name to a opinion on compliance if non certified materials are used.

Assigned certificates are so watered down with ancillary certification so as to make any future redress a tapestry to be unwoven.....

If it's 'opt out' you've no record of what is installed. When the screed is poured, you don't know what has gone in the floor. You can't inspect a dwelling every day. You can approve installation of materials before contractor buys.

sydthebeat

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

How's it a nightmare if they are being paid accordingly. It's just work. If they don't want to do it, then drive on up the road.
Opt out is the same old 'self certified' Irish way of building like ****e and getting away with it. The old way is hard to kill off

Opt in is the very definition of "self certification"

The old ways problem was the acceptance of "on the fly, visual basis only" certs that were done on competition. Those were the certs that caused the problems in priory hall and the like.

We're not taking about those kind of certs here.

eoinzy2000

sydthebeat wrote: »

Opt in is the very definition of "self certification"

The old ways problem was the acceptance of "on the fly, visual basis only" certs that were done on competition. Those were the certs that caused the problems in priory hall and the like.

We're not taking about those kind of certs here.

No its not. You know what I mean. The old way, where the builder could throw anything into the build. This way, it has to be approved before it's even bought. You have a level of protection here that you don't have with opt out. Listen, I'm no fan of the system and I see it's weakness. It's no substitute for and actual building control department with officers assigned to a project inspecting as it develops, but Ireland won't implement a good system such as that. At least with opt in, you have a full record of materials and subbies and designers that went into your house.

sydthebeat

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

No its not. You know what I mean. The old way, where the builder could throw anything into the build. This way, it has to be approved before it's even bought. You have a level of protection here that you don't have with opt out. Listen, I'm no fan of the system and I see it's weakness. It's no substitute for and actual building control department with officers assigned to a project inspecting as it develops, but Ireland won't implement a good system such as that. At least with opt in, you have a full record of materials and subbies and designers that went into your house.

I agree with all that. A fully funded building control system set up to do 100% inspections is the best system that we could have.... But we're Irish so we have an Irish solution to an Irish problem

I just don't see the premium you pay for the last part ever being worth the same value.
If you have a thorough set of construction drawings and specifications, you know and trust your builder, and you have a competent certifier, then opt out is more than sufficient in my eyes.

Gumbo

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

If it's 'opt out' you've no record of what is installed. When the screed is poured, you don't know what has gone in the floor. You can't inspect a dwelling every day. You can approve installation of materials before contractor buys.

That’s incorrect.
Your professional still needs to record the materials to demonstrate compliance with Building Regulations.

Opt in or Opt out only affects the statutory process and paperwork around the BCMS.
The building control regulations, the technical requirements of the building regulations still need to be met and demonstrated the same.

In Dublin, Opt outs are inspected by the building control authority to the same level of detail.

eoinzy2000

Gumbo wrote: »

That’s incorrect.
Your professional still needs to record the materials to demonstrate compliance with Building Regulations.

Opt in or Opt out only affects the statutory process and paperwork around the BCMS.
The building control regulations, the technical requirements of the building regulations still need to be met and demonstrated the same.

In Dublin, Opt outs are inspected by the building control authority to the same level of detail.

I see. I have been involved in no opt outs. If all the gathering of info is done anyway, there is no big difference in opt in and opt out. As a client, I would be asking for the compiled information to be submitted to the opt in system so. It future proofs against an arbitrary decision by a bank to prefer an opt in development to loan against, which I believe is happening

eoinzy2000

In Dublin, Opt outs are inspected by the building control authority to the same level of detail.[/quote]

When you say Building Control Authority, you mean the couple of officers that validate the commencement notice and check your compliance certs? How can they inspect the same level of detail, if you've opted out to giving them all the detail?

The chan chan man

Gumbo wrote: »

That’s incorrect.
Your professional still needs to record the materials to demonstrate compliance with Building Regulations.

Opt in or Opt out only affects the statutory process and paperwork around the BCMS.
The building control regulations, the technical requirements of the building regulations still need to be met and demonstrated the same.

In Dublin, Opt outs are inspected by the building control authority to the same level of detail.

I’m a structural engineer and have been working in Dublin and all over the country for almost 17 years on projects ranging from house extensions to schools to housing estates to multi storey office blocks etc. I've had “building control” on TWO sites (both BCAR) in all that time..

eoinzy2000

The chan chan man wrote: »

I’m a structural engineer and have been working in Dublin and all over the country for almost 17 years on projects ranging from house extensions to schools to housing estates to multi storey office blocks etc. I've had “building control” on TWO sites (both BCAR) in all that time..

I've had the same experience (few more than 17 years unfortunately!!), except you've had building control on site 2 more times than I have 😂. There is no BC system. My argument is basically that opt in is a bit more protection for client. As far as I can see, opt out is just a way of keeping the old dogs happy and not impose change. The argument that buildings have to comply was the same from priory hall days. Opt out system changes no bad habits. Keeps the cowboys in the game, both builder and professional

eoinzy2000

sydthebeat wrote: »

I agree with all that. A fully funded building control system set up to do 100% inspections is the best system that we could have.... But we're Irish so we have an Irish solution to an Irish problem

I just don't see the premium you pay for the last part ever being worth the same value.
If you have a thorough set of construction drawings and specifications, you know and trust your builder, and you have a competent certifier, then opt out is more than sufficient in my eyes.

I can agree with that, but "Joe down the road is 10k cheaper to build my house. I heard he was good." Or: "yer man down the road will give you your cert for 700/800 quid".
This is the old way, and Opt out does nothing to stop this and increase building quality. Money will always talk. In an ideal world, I can understand what your saying, but it hasn't, and doesn't work. I see it every single time I inspect structures in Ireland.
In my opinion, it is only a small percentage of your construction cost that allows you to ensure approved products are used and wcs help pinpoint faults/ liability, either products or contractor, into the future.

Gumbo

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

When you say Building Control Authority, you mean the couple of officers that validate the commencement notice and check your compliance certs? How can they inspect the same level of detail, if you've opted out to giving them all the detail?

In Dublin, the building control officers don’t validate the CN’s or check the Certs. There’s an admin team for that.

Gumbo

The chan chan man wrote: »

I’m a structural engineer and have been working in Dublin and all over the country for almost 17 years on projects ranging from house extensions to schools to housing estates to multi storey office blocks etc. I've had “building control” on TWO sites (both BCAR) in all that time..

Some are lucky. It may depend on the risk profile of your projects not warranting inspection. Generally, domestic extensions won’t be inspected.

New builds will.
All multiple dwelling builds are inspected.
Most FSC projects are inspected.
Single one offs are generally not inspected as much but they are randomly checked.

eoinzy2000

Gumbo wrote: »

In Dublin, the building control officers don’t validate the CN’s or check the Certs. There’s an admin team for that.

Building control officers don't check the certs? I would've thought that would be one of their primary concerns, that certification is correct.

Gumbo

The chan chan man wrote: »

I’m a structural engineer and have been working in Dublin and all over the country for almost 17 years on projects ranging from house extensions to schools to housing estates to multi storey office blocks etc. I've had “building control” on TWO sites (both BCAR) in all that time..

You may not have been involved in the inspection process. They will deal with the Assigned Certifier. Dublin City would be the most active.

No way all your housing estates, office blocks or schools went Non-inspected in Dublin city.

Gumbo

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Building control officers don't check the certs? I would've thought that would be one of their primary concerns, that certification is correct.

For clarity. What Certs are you talking about?

eoinzy2000

Gumbo wrote: »

For clarity. What Certs are you talking about?

Every single certification demonstrating compliance with a development really. I wouldnt be letting an admin in my office pass a subby or product cert without an engineer confirming it.

eoinzy2000

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Every single certification demonstrating compliance with a development really. I wouldnt be letting an admin in my office pass a subby or product cert without an engineer confirming it.

I suppose it gets down to how many officers the council has employed the. Though. I'd imagine it's pretty hectic in Dublin.

eoinzy2000

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I suppose it gets down to how many officers the council has employed the. Though. I'd imagine it's pretty hectic in Dublin.

I wonder how many BC officers there are in Dublin city council? Anyone know?

Gumbo

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Every single certification demonstrating compliance with a development really. I wouldnt be letting an admin in my office pass a subby or product cert without an engineer confirming it.

They wouldn’t get submitted as part of the Commencement Notice process.
You think a BCO sits there and checks every cert for every product?

That’s not how it works.

The AC will upload his/her CCC and any supporting documentation. There are only 3 forms that are statutory required, the ccc, the annex of documents and the inspection plan as implemented. These get checked to ensure they match the CN.

If the sites were been inspected then the BCO would have been dealing with the AC throughout the development and separate requests for information under Section 11 of the BCA would have been made at different stages of the build following each inspection. Inspections take place through the works.

I’ve spoke to some AC’s that upload hundreds of papers at CCC stage but these are not checked for compliance. They are required by the AC to satisfy themselves that they are comfortable signing the CCC.

Gumbo

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I wonder how many BC officers there are in Dublin city council? Anyone know?

The only list online is from 2017 and it doesn’t even list Dublin city.
But they have about 9 who would be out inspecting every day.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/building_control_officers_-_july_2017.pdf

mickdw

The chan chan man wrote: »

I’m a structural engineer and have been working in Dublin and all over the country for almost 17 years on projects ranging from house extensions to schools to housing estates to multi storey office blocks etc. I've had “building control” on TWO sites (both BCAR) in all that time..

Im working about the same number of years but here in mayo we get regular BC site visits.
Mostly since circa 2008 and looking at part L for the most part but once they take an interest, everything is open to query.

Gumbo

I’m relatively similar in that I started out in a Consulting Engineers in 2002. I didn’t see a Building Control Inspection until 2013. Now I see them every other day due to types of projects I’m on in Dublin City.

*I understand other counties may not get the exposure as the City.

sydthebeat

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I can agree with that, but "Joe down the road is 10k cheaper to build my house. I heard he was good." Or: "yer man down the road will give you your cert for 700/800 quid".
This is the old way, and Opt out does nothing to stop this and increase building quality. Money will always talk. In an ideal world, I can understand what your saying, but it hasn't, and doesn't work. I see it every single time I inspect structures in Ireland.
In my opinion, it is only a small percentage of your construction cost that allows you to ensure approved products are used and wcs help pinpoint faults/ liability, either products or contractor, into the future.

"Out out" commencement notices still are required to have building regulation compliant drawings and documents submitted to show how the build will comply with building regulations.

I have never uploaded an opt out application without at least a Prelim part L Report and detailed Drawings of construction.

The days of Joe soap the handyman builder building from planning drawings and working out of the cab of his van are long gone in my experience thankfully.
Builders that I encounter are proper professionals with established offices and staff. Data sheets for materials are easy enough to come by as the same materials are used over and over on one offs.

Personally I think the ancillary certification aircraft of the "opt in" is a complete red Herring. The only tradesman that is statutorily obliged to certify their work is the electrician. Anything else is on very shaky ground legally in my opinion.....and all it is useful for is the assigned certifier diluting their responsibility as the over arching certifier. Like I said previously, I don't think it actually gives the homeowner any real extra protection as the whole ancillary cert aspect is a web of pretty worthless paperwork

silverwood

OP here. So this is what I understand:

It seems the general consensus is that the ‘opt out’ process is the best way forward. Once the BCMS ‘opt out’ procedure is followed properly by my architect/engineer, and the required drawings/paperwork uploaded, I would have no future issues if I ever decided to sell my property (from a paperwork viewpoint of course). The required BCMS uploads and supervising architect’s final opinion on compliance would be sufficient?

Thanks for all advice and guidance. Some interesting debate to read.

edding4321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/115288858#Comment_115288858

Hi Syd, Im at the Opt-in\Opt-out stage - you said in a previous most you have done alot of these. Would you care to drop me a PM (I cant PM you) to see if we could use your services?. Thank you