Accountants Revenue and Covid.

berettaman

Hi, Just thought I would start a thread for Accountants and Revenue alike in relation to compliance issues and Covid.


Just to kick off, I work in practice. Some clients are brilliant, have their stuff in on time and we are working hard to file returns.


Some clients are devastated by Covid closures and we are struggling to get info in to complete returns for 2019 as they are just overwhelmed.



And some clients are using Covid as an excuse to drag their feet and not get their stuff together. (And not pay us!!):mad:



How are things on other side of fence?
A lot of Revenue working from home and My enquires is the only real link. They seem happy enough to be honest.

Thoughts?

Stratvs

In sole practice here.

On Revenue, resolutions to queries have never been faster. I've had MyEnquiries sometimes answered within hours, usually within a day or two. Also I feel Revenue had stepped up to the mark here. The getting of money to people via the TWSS, EWSS & now CRSS has been greatly enabled by their tech. I wonder what would have happened had PMOD not happened when it did as that system enabled a lot to be done.

On clients I have some that were not affected other than changes to comply with Covid regulations and are trading away ok through it all, a lot were hit by lockdown one but bounced back in the summer and while restricted now again seem to be managing and feel confident enough. Some though who've had to remain closed are a worry. I have had more conversations with people about early retirement than ever. Those that could never take a day off suddenly found in lockdown that they quite enjoyed the time off and have not reverted to 24/7/365.

On records, we've done ok in fact some are never so up to date as they've had the time to do stuff that might have been left slide in an ordinary year. Waiting for a couple to come back for filing and we're done with 2019. Companies all up to date with next ARDS not 'til the spring. A lot of work has gone into the various relief packages. Payroll & support for the TWSS/EWSS has been time consuming enough and also the compliance checks but they got done. Managed with almost no in-person discussions. Email/phone/Zoom sorted most of it. It was only recently I realised that a lot of it is because I didn’t get the usual holidays. Since Covid hit have had 8 workdays off and in fairness am feeling weary now.

On money well ok it's been slow but we're managing and not having to beg. Many of these people have kept us in business for 30 years so leeway is needed and to be fair I feel we got info to people as soon as possible on what was available to them and have kept the phone open throughout for support and I feel that has been reciprocated.

My story may or not be typical, will be interesting to see others experience. Thanks for starting this thread.

berettaman

Stratvs wrote: »

In sole practice here.

...
My story may or not be typical, will be interesting to see others experience. Thanks for starting this thread.

You make some excellent observations.
Most accountants have been on the go since March without much of a break. That said after the initial flurry of activity we got a nice rhythm going in terms of work flow.


Some clients are definitely using the time upskilling and looking at a change of direction which is fantastic I think.


By and large Revenue have been on the ball through my enquiries alright.

I’m a bit late to the thread but I would have a different perspective on this issue. To begin with, I think that registered tax agents should have a dedicated phone number to contact revenue rather than go through the same routine as the general public each time. There’s a poll on LinkedIn about this here https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brendanbrady_accountants-accountant-activity-6742455338370428928-uJnl
Revenue introduced 3 major interventions - TWSS, EWSS and CRSS and it was accountants who implemented and managed the changes on revenue’s behalf. Revenue appear to have quite successfully subcontracted alot of their work out to accountants in recent years with little objection from the profession. For example, how much tax is collected by tax agents processing and submitting payments on ROS, yet no direct number? PAYE modernisation is another example, it’s as though every time Revenue wants to implement a change they turn around to the accounting profession and say “ok Accountants, go ahead and implement these changes for us and if you have a question rise a query on MYEnquiries.

berettaman

I had an interesting exchange a few years ago with a Revenue official as we concluded an audit.

He said he couldn't believe that accountants kept taking the sh1te that they were being given by the Revenue. He was of the opinion that the Institutes were useless for letting it happen.


I make a point of letting the Institute know when the Revenue are trying to make our lives difficult such as bulk upload of subbies to 35% RCT without consultation.


What really irritates me is that they insist on writing to the client and not copying the agent in certain instances. When I queried this recently the Revenue person replied simply "We don't have to.":eek:


I asked her who was more likely to respond, the block laying client that doesn't open any envelope with a harp on it (Just sticks it in the VAT bag) or the Chartered Accountant working in practice? not her problem.

gudede

Sorry lads but I kinda have to disagree (I work in practice).

Yes, we clean up everything for Revenue, but we wouldn’t have a job without Revenue or the Companies Act. Yes, they are a pain, but its also a revenue stream.

Direct phone line is a great shout. Sure you can speak to someone in the PAYE section.

Generally, accountants need to improve their billing and actually charge client's for what we do. we don’t charge enough for all the little things we do. Solicitors would go to town and charge an arm and a leg.

Revenue is a state body and the Companies Act is a statutory instrument. I wouldn't consider them a source of income.

Do tradesmen consider Health & Safety Authority as a revenue stream?

gudede

They drive our business!!! People wouldn’t file tax returns or prepare financial statements without them. They do it because it’s law.

Mechanic’s give out about NCT’s but again NCT’s helps to generate income for them.

berettaman

gudede wrote: »

They drive our business!!! People wouldn’t file tax returns or prepare financial statements without them. They do it because it’s law.

Mechanic’s give out about NCT’s but again NCT’s helps to generate income for them.

Fair point. I got paid this week by a guy that owed me for a while..out of the blue like.


Turns out he has a letter from the Tax man..:rolleyes::D


So now you need me...€€€

berettaman

Happy New Year!!

Anyway, today in practice:

ROS slower than the month of January.:rolleyes:

Revenue gone missing? Several cases are awaiting replies on my enquiries for some time. Anyone else noticing that?

Also, due to lockdown I have more clients lobbing in their 2020 books early and pushing hard for fee reductions despite a lot of hand holding and form filling throughout 2020. I am bravely holding the line, for now.

anyone else seeing the same?

Stratvs

berettaman wrote: »

Happy New Year!!

Anyway, today in practice:

ROS slower than the month of January.:rolleyes:

Revenue gone missing? Several cases are awaiting replies on my enquiries for some time. Anyone else noticing that?

Also, due to lockdown I have more clients lobbing in their 2020 books early and pushing hard for fee reductions despite a lot of hand holding and form filling throughout 2020. I am bravely holding the line, for now.

anyone else seeing the same?

ROS was slower in Jan than now but seems ok.

MyEnquiries, yeah responses are a lot slower last 2 weeks. Also earlier ones were all coming back with "Hi Firstname". Now they're coming back with "Dear Mr Surname". What's with the sudden formality !

Books coming early yes, have enough in 'til near Easter at this stage.

Fees - no one has said anything yet and with all the (unbilled) time that went into emailing info on what aid was available, phone calls, bank requests, general "what are we going to do" issues, PUP/TWSS/EWSS/CRSS and any other XXSS that they're likely to come up with not to mention CORE changes I'm getting tired and cranky at this stage so am not planning on entertaining reductions. (rant over)

PS Happy New Year to you too !

berettaman

General observations and peeves for the week:

New Form 11 for 2020 are more detailed, will take longer to fill in.:rolleyes:

Professional clearance letters are not just for courtesy, they are an important safeguard for the incoming accountant.

Had a client move to an "accountant" who didn't seem to know of their existence.:rolleyes:

berettaman

berettaman wrote: »

General observations and peeves for the week:

New Form 11 for 2020 are more detailed, will take longer to fill in.:rolleyes:

Professional clearance letters are not just for courtesy, they are an important safeguard for the incoming accountant.

Had a client move to an "accountant" who didn't seem to know of their existence.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately there's not much that can be done about that until the term Accountant is protected and/or Revenue and the CRO conduct some type of due diligence/AML procedures on people they are issuing Agent ID's and CRO accounts to.

berettaman

brenbrady wrote: »

Unfortunately there's not much that can be done about that until the term Accountant is protected and/or Revenue and the CRO conduct some type of due diligence/AML procedures on people they are issuing Agent ID's and CRO accounts to.

Agree 100%

It was a mistake by the powers that be not tying up the term accountant prior to dispensing with the requirement for audit.

It is scandalous what is going on in some areas.

I had a person ring me up to ask me me CAT/CGT queries for a client that he had and he was not a qualified accountant, he was a web designer come book keeper.:eek:

There's a potential can of worms around TAIN's on several fronts - AML, GDPR, central bank regs.

Too much to go into now but I've touched on the AML issue here https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brendanbrady_antimoneylaundering-accountants-taxadvice-activity-6767776863243833344-g0Yv

berettaman

Practice life update.

2020 form 11s have the PUP amount received on them. very handy. However it is not always added to other DSP income received amount so don't take the first figure you see.;)

Lockdown ongoing; there has been a up tick in clients looking at options to close versus Pandemic supports only thing keeping some places going.

Getting harder to explain the Celtic Afro in zoom meetings as we are normally more clean cut individuals:D

UK businesses are (still) asking Irish exporters about Import/export rules.:eek:

berettaman

Practice life update:


What do you do when a UK company won't engage with UK authorities and certify that the goods they are selling are for export?:eek:


My guy, in Ireland wants to but the goods and is trying to fill in UK export forms for the UK company and HMRC site is blocking him as he is outside the jurisdiction.


Oh joy.


Also received a CV where fortnite is listed as both a hobby and an IT skill.:D

Stratvs

berettaman wrote: »

Also received a CV where fortnite is listed as both a hobby and an IT skill.:D

Is Super Mario no longer a thing so under IT skills ? Looks like I may need some upskilling

hjr

Stratvs wrote: »

Is Super Mario no longer a thing so under IT skills ? Looks like I may need some upskilling

Football Manager for sure is a required skill!

gudede

fortnite probably more believable than our current work loads.

PPA agreements for companies who are closed due to Covid are now taking up my time. How can Revenue and the client agree on a payment scheme, when the company has zero income (apart from CRSS). Never mind the impossible VAT questions and that fact everyone wants their audits done ASAP but using covid as an excuse for not providing information. Interesting times.

berettaman

gudede wrote: »

fortnite probably more believable than our current work loads.

PPA agreements for companies who are closed due to Covid are now taking up my time. How can Revenue and the client agree on a payment scheme, when the company has zero income (apart from CRSS). Never mind the impossible VAT questions and that fact everyone wants their audits done ASAP but using covid as an excuse for not providing information. Interesting times.

I had a similar friendly phone call.

Guy has an arrangement with the Sheriff and they have amended his tax credits to cover liabilities for other periods and now they want a PPA for a prior period as well!!?:eek:
I laughed and said that he would consider a PPA when the Sheriff is off the pitch.

berettaman

Okay, there is a certain advert on radio that does my head in. If you have to go into a dustbin to look for receipts I don't want you as a client.:mad:

Stratvs

berettaman wrote: »

Okay, there is a certain advert on radio that does my head in. If you have to go into a dustbin to look for receipts I don't want you as a client.:mad:

What are the strangest things you found in a box/bag of records that came in?

Here
1) part eaten bacon sandwich
2) draft of a love letter from an elderly bachelor farmer to ...?
3) not strange but certainly happens often - unopened Revenue letters

duffysfarm

Found a receipt for sexy lingerie about 15 years ago which was a hot topic of conversation in the office for a while.

Found maggots in another box of records. Partner in charge threw the records straight in the bin!!!

Stratvs wrote: »

What are the strangest things you found in a box/bag of records that came in?

Here
1) part eaten bacon sandwich
2) draft of a love letter from an elderly bachelor farmer to ...?
3) not strange but certainly happens often - unopened Revenue letters

capefear

berettaman wrote: »

Okay, there is a certain advert on radio that does my head in. If you have to go into a dustbin to look for receipts I don't want you as a client.:mad:

what add is it as havent heard it online, I would guess big red books or sage

berettaman

capefear wrote: »

what add is it as havent heard it online, I would guess big red books or sage

Nope..TaxA$$ist or some such

berettaman

Stratvs wrote: »

What are the strangest things you found in a box/bag of records that came in?

Here
1) part eaten bacon sandwich
2) draft of a love letter from an elderly bachelor farmer to ...?
3) not strange but certainly happens often - unopened Revenue letters

1. Maggots, between receipts-binned.
2 . Clients childrens homework-returned.
3. Animal tags-returned.
4. Shopping lists with money-returned.
5. Love poetry- admired and returned.
6. Twix and maltesers-not returned
7. Team sheet for a camogie team-returned
8. Rant letter to Revenue-admired, not returned.
9. Unopened Revenue letters-not returned but dealt with.
10 Unopened Revenue letter-marked deceased by living client, not returned but dealt with..;)

Stratvs

berettaman wrote: »

4. Shopping lists with money-returned.

You don't do click and collect so

Sunny Dayz

Stratvs wrote: »

What are the strangest things you found in a box/bag of records that came in?

This would actually be a good topic for a thread of it’s own!

One client’s records often come in stinking of smoke.
One client (sole trader) used to send us in receipts for EVERYTHING. They were frugal enough with money but receipts for grocery shopping, buying clothes in Dunnes, a loaf of bread and litre of milk in the petrol station - kept everything!
Scratch cards and lotto tickets - nothing on them bar one had the minimum amount, like €4 or something.
Kids artwork which is clearly not for us, admired and sent back with a note of compliments.
For preparing VAT returns I get people chancing their arm - personal hotel stays, household appliances, gardening and power tools, electronic devices in Aug (school/college) and Dec (Christmas).

Stratvs

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

This would actually be a good topic for a thread of it’s own!

One client (sole trader) used to send us in receipts for EVERYTHING. They were frugal enough with money but receipts for grocery shopping, buying clothes in Dunnes, a loaf of bread and litre of milk in the petrol station - kept everything!

I sometimes think it's better to have more than needed and discard the rest than be missing stuff that's needed. But it can be a pain. They probably use the FID system of filing which is still quite common among older folk. We also get biscuit tins with the receipts in. No biscuits, just receipts. Although usually they are Afternoon Tea tins, not those cheap ones:D

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

For preparing VAT returns I get people chancing their arm - personal hotel stays, household appliances, gardening and power tools, electronic devices in Aug (school/college) and Dec (Christmas).

Receipts/invoices with dates around Christmas week are often great fun to whittle out. Jewellers, off-licences, Smyths Toys, Curry's etc. Multiple PCs and iPads each year. How many of those does a carpenter really need !!


(FID = Fired Into a Drawer )

berettaman

In the practice I trained in I got all the farm accounts to do because I was "from the country". (I am not from a farming background as such).

Anyway, I was given a file to look at while the manager was explaining what type of farming the client did. After a brief look I told him that last years accounts were wrong. He told me I was a cheeky ba$tard.:rolleyes:
Eventually he asked why and I said where I come from hoggets are not classified as pigs! (red faces all round).

Fast forward a few years and I have my eye on the exit door and I am training two ladies from the city. They will be taking over a lot of my clients. I had them sorting invoices from a farmer and one complained that the invoices were stuck together with weird blackish green clay.
I said "That's not clay...":D

berettaman

Stratvs wrote: »

Receipts/invoices with dates around Christmas week are often great fun to whittle out. Jewellers, off-licences, Smyths Toys, Curry's etc. Multiple PCs and iPads each year. How many of those does a carpenter really need !!


(FID = Fired Into a Drawer )

Construction client had invoice for a "mixer" from Harvey Norman. €900 coffee machine!!

Stratvs

berettaman wrote: »

Construction client had invoice for a "mixer" from Harvey Norman. €900 coffee machine!!

I suppose mixing coffee with water qualifies as a mixer of sorts. I'm sure his intentions were honourable.

hold my beer

berettaman wrote: »

Okay, there is a certain advert on radio that does my head in. If you have to go into a dustbin to look for receipts I don't want you as a client.:mad:

I absolutely despise that stupid ad. Fingers crossed it only attracts the worst type of clients to said bunch of chancers.

It's up there with Eddie Hobbs and his countermeasures ad - absolute chancer.

gudede

Had a good giggle reading these.

Once asked a doctor where was he income from a certain sports team. Told me he does nothing for them.

Replied, never know you had a twin, who was running onto the pitch last week.

berettaman

Once worked in a practice where we would sometimes have lunch at our desks during busy times. (I know, I know..)

One lunch time the phone rings and a junior answers it. A client was asking about getting the VAT back on a chainsaw.
The junior went through what was allowable and "wholly and exclusively", S.80 TCA etc A beautiful text book answer about 8 mins long.
Audit manager came in, heard the last 30 seconds and asked for the phone.
" Hi Mr X, you are not Vat registered, so the answer is no.."

Still makes me smile to this day..:D

Stratvs

The current file on my desk brought this incident back to me which happened a good few years back (retired farmer). He was in the office and said he was looking at setting up a 5yr land lease to get the relevant tax reliefs and would I draw up the lease for him. Said no we don't do that you need to go to your solicitor. His answer ......"but he'd charge me". It taught me a big lesson about how much stuff does get done for nothing.

berettaman

Once worked in a thriving decent sized practice in a city outside Dublin.

The partners had the Reception area repainted and a general spruce up. Very nice.
I was in reception one day and a "small farmer" ambles up with his books. He was notoriously mean and religiously slow to pay his fees. He invented fee resistance even though he had more money than he knew what to do with. His fee was always on the low side and always late.

He casts his eye around the new reception and says "I suppose I am paying for this..":D

berettaman

berettaman wrote: »

Practice life update.

2020 form 11s have the PUP amount received on them. very handy. However it is not always added to other DSP income received amount so don't take the first figure you see.;)

Well, don't take the first figure you see.Indeed!
The Preloaded Form 11s often have incorrect PUP amount on them.

Some have the first/second payment of 2021 included on them depending whether the client has ceased PUP claim or not.

berettaman

Stratvs wrote: »

... Said no we don't do that you need to go to your solicitor. His answer ......"but he'd charge me". It taught me a big lesson about how much stuff does get done for nothing.

I have been thinking about this post.
There is a tonne of stuff that we do for clients as accountants in practice that we don't charge for.
Met an accountant a few years ago that mapped everything he did for clients in a year on an excel sheet and he used to have a menu of fees for clients. CSO survey form €30, salary cert for employee, €30 etc
It all adds up!

Jim2007

berettaman wrote: »

I have been thinking about this post.
There is a tonne of stuff that we do for clients as accountants in practice that we don't charge for.
Met an accountant a few years ago that mapped everything he did for clients in a year on an excel sheet and he used to have a menu of fees for clients. CSO survey form €30, salary cert for employee, €30 etc
It all adds up!

Why are you still going on about this? Charge your clients what you are worth, if they don't want to pay show them the door. And if you can't afford to show them the door then perhaps a salaried job might suit you better.


I spent 30 years doing consulting for various financial institutions, I charged per hour for every minute I was on the clock, did not do freebees nor give discounts. I always considered it my problem if I failed to charge the client enough. If you don't value yourself no one else will. You can always do something more useful with the time you spend dealing with time wasters.

berettaman

Jim2007 wrote: »

Why are you still going on about this? Charge your clients what you are worth, if they don't want to pay show them the door. And if you can't afford to show them the door then perhaps a salaried job might suit you better.


I spent 30 years doing consulting for various financial institutions, I charged per hour for every minute I was on the clock, did not do freebees nor give discounts. I always considered it my problem if I failed to charge the client enough. If you don't value yourself no one else will. You can always do something more useful with the time you spend dealing with time wasters.

Respectfully, this is the first time commenting on this..so not "still going on" about it. Check the posts.
And thanks for the free advice.:D (See what I did there!);)

Jim2007

berettaman wrote: »

Respectfully, this is the first time commenting on this..so not "still going on" about it. Check the posts.
And thanks for the free advice.:D (See what I did there!);)

You have been rabbiting on about this since early last November.... and no it’s not free advice it’s common business sense, if one of your clients was under charging for their services and giving stuff away for free, while at the same time complaining that he was no making money, how would you advise him?

I work to live not the other way around. I don’t do overtime because it not only impacts me, but my wife, kids, family and friends, the people I want spend my time with. So when I work, I concentrate on the stuff that generates income, I work for clients that appreciate my services and are willing to pay for it, the rest I kick to the curb PDQ.

There are many deserving charities out there, worthy of our time and efforts and mean tight fisted clients don’t met the bill.

It’s embarrassing to hear a business advisor complaining about his inability to manage his own business. Do you really thing it attracts clients or for that matter helps the rest of the profession attract clients?

berettaman

Jim2007 wrote: »

You have been rabbiting on about this since early last November.... and no it’s not free advice it’s common business sense, if one of your clients was under charging for their services and giving stuff away for free, while at the same time complaining that he was no making money, how would you advise him?

Respectfully, I do not see how I have been rabbiting on this topic since November.

hold my beer

Such an agressive manner Jim. I get your point, but it's nice to be nice.

gudede

berettaman wrote: »

I have been thinking about this post.
There is a tonne of stuff that we do for clients as accountants in practice that we don't charge for.
Met an accountant a few years ago that mapped everything he did for clients in a year on an excel sheet and he used to have a menu of fees for clients. CSO survey form €30, salary cert for employee, €30 etc
It all adds up!

Menu of fee’s is a good idea, especially for the smaller stuff. I might borrow that idea. Thanks

Do think, the younger generation will force accountants to be more transparent on fees. Bookkeeping can be done cheaper and cheaper. Clients don't see value and it’s up to us to justify our fees.

On the plus side, audit fees should increase.

barneystinson

I don't have time to read back through all the posts, but I see Jim's in. Have we reached any or all of the following yet:

- that he trained in one of the Big 4,
- that it was 30 years ago and he then moved on to bigger and better things
- how great it is living in Switzerland
- a general smug air of self satisfaction and superiority / condescension.

Jim2007

barneystinson wrote: »

I don't have time to read back through all the posts, but I see Jim's in. Have we reached any or all of the following yet:

- that he trained in one of the Big 4,
- that it was 30 years ago and he then moved on to bigger and better things
- how great it is living in Switzerland
- a general smug air of self satisfaction and superiority / condescension.

Of course you didn't.

But if you are running your own practice and you decide to under charge and do freebees then that is on you, no one else. There is no point blaming the clients, they are doing exactly what they should be doing - trying to get the services they need as cheaply as possible.

So except it or change it, it's up to you....

DmanDmythDledge

Don't agree with all of Jim's posts here but the last one is spot on. There's an outrageous amount of firms that do stuff FOC for clients - CT returns, tax affairs letters, payroll returns, small income tax returns. Many that are afraid to charge don't because of lack of confidence of the quality of services they're providing. There's a reason there's firms of similar size and staff numbers that turnover <€1m and some that are >€2m

Jim2007

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

Don't agree with all of Jim's posts here but the last one is spot on. There's an outrageous amount of firms that do stuff FOC for clients - CT returns, tax affairs letters, payroll returns, small income tax returns. Many that are afraid to charge don't because of lack of confidence of the quality of services they're providing. There's a reason there's firms of similar size and staff numbers that turnover <€1m and some that are >€2m

I’m direct, it’s a habit I picked up over 30 years working in environments where people are direct. Some people don’t like it, I get that, but at this stage I’m not going to change. So use the ignore button, that’s what its there for.

Clients are business people and they are doing what you would expect then to do - keep their costs to a minimum and you can’t blame them for that. You are not the only one they are going hit up for free stuff and you are not the only one telling them no, it’s the answer they are expecting, because they are not in the habit of giving their stuff away for free!

Your skills and time are valuable, if it was not so, clients would not be asking for it for free. If you want to succeed you need to be cold and calculating about it. Loss making clients cost you twice - they won’t pay and they take up time that would be better spent on working for profitable clients, looking for new business, doing some deserving charity work or personal time.

Nobody forced any of us to go into business nor give stuff away for free, it’s a situation that we are responsible for and only we can change it. So I don’t see the point in complaining about a situation that you are responsible for and only you can change.

The world over

A bit late to the discussion, sole practitioner here.
I agree that Accountants need to be more diligent when they arrive at charging fees. Its a hard earned qualification and we need to learn from solicitors in how we charge. Solicitors are excellent at detailing and charging out for every item of so called work.
On the work front Revenue have certainly improved their MyEnquiries response times which is reassuring. Hopefully we wont have to deal with Wage subsidies for a while again.
It will be interesting to see how the accountancy profession develops over the next 10 years. I still find it difficult to get some small clients to pay for a simple book-keeping online package. Some of them prefer to keep it manual, obviously the slightly extra cost is their main sticking point.