2019 Masters 40 RR Champ doping ban

Doc07

https://the42.ie/5254972

That’s a bit disheartening

Daroxtar

What an absolute arsehole. That's not some pressurised youngster or domestique trying to make it or survive in the pro ranks. That's a 47 year old, out and out cheating ****. Pure vanity. Disgusting.

lawrencesummers

You have to wonder how a person at that age is psychologically made up.

Having a willingness to put that stuff into your body and cause untold harm to yourself for the sake of a cheating your way to a medal at what is essentially a Micky mouse competition takes the personality of a strange strange person.

I can half understand the pros that cheat, There is a huge amount on the line financially, they have dedicated full time professionalism to their sport and feel the need to go outside the rules to be successful.

Just being able to compete at that age on a national level is an achievement in itself, the need to cheat to win is sad. Now the riders name is out there in national press, that’s someone who probably has a job and a family and has to face those people.

I pity the guy tbh.

C3PO

Bizarre!

velo.2010

So he took Anavar and Equipoise... a steroid favoured by women bodybuilders and a steroid originally developed for horses! Mad stuff indeed. You'd wonder about masters events and what some of these guys could potentially be taking to maintain their strength and fitness in the face of declining testosterone levels.

CramCycle

Not casting aspersions but some of the ICVA league performances are, hmmm, inspirational. There are some people who'd dope to win a local athletics meet or a GAA division 3 league match in Longford. This is hardly the strangest thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm competitive but I want to know it was me who bet you. Doping has to be so mentally empty. At that level it's not a survival thing.

On the same note, not sure I care anymore. As for the Rugby comment. All I'll say is a 120kg, north of 200cm, travelling at a sprint speed that would be competitive at a national, possibly European level in athletics, says all it has too.

Taxuser1

velo.2010 wrote: »

So he took Anavar and Equipoise... a steroid favoured by women bodybuilders and a steroid originally developed for horses! Mad stuff indeed. You'd wonder about masters events and what some of these guys could potentially be taking to maintain their strength and fitness in the face of declining testosterone levels.

I’m a master, strongest racing years of my life age 41 to this year when I turned 43 even with restrictions in place I was competitive. Stronger than when in my Late teens and 20s. There’s plenty of really good riders who train hard and live smart just to be competitive, be they normal weekend races in CI or IVCA races. this is shocking today. I know the lad from racing a few times so in shock. I’m full sure he has cost me a medal that same day, he steamrolled up a 7% hill with a 500 metre sprint closing down a move i was in close to the line. We now know how he was able to do it.

Large bottle small glass

velo.2010 wrote: »

f declining testosterone levels.

At least he didn't drag in some innocent business into his mess with some Mickey Mouse/ Fred Flintstone scientific test like the last clown caught doping in Wexford

CramCycle

Taxuser1 wrote: »

I’m a master, strongest racing years of my life age 41 to this year when I turned 43 even with restrictions in place I was competitive. Stronger than when in my Late teens and 20s. There’s plenty of really good riders who train hard and live smart just to be competitive, be they normal weekend races in CI or IVCA races. this is shocking today. I know the lad from racing a few times so in shock. I’m full sure he has cost me a medal that same day, he steamrolled up a 7% hill with a 500 metre sprint closing down a move i was in close to the line. We now know how he was able to do it.

And that's the really gauling thing. I'm in the same boat (fitter now than 20years ago) but a misspent youth mean I was fitter and faster last year then I'd been ever. Thankfully for me, losing races has been due to stupidity or being too weak, but I'd be wretching if I was beaten like this. I can take been beaten because I made an error, or because half the field is better than me but what you describe is theft in my mind.

Won a club league race once, and I gave it everything that day, everything just worked. I broke off on my own, emptied the tank and when I was spent 3 lads went again with me. I gave orders, I got it working and we were like a fuc*ING pro level TTT. I could barely breathe. Last time up Boston Hill, one broke ranks and went for it and my legs were dead, 2nd guy thought we had another lap and asked what the f*ck. We let him know and he tore off. My comrade in arms told me to go for it and I told him I was gone, legs could barely move. He looked at me and said I earned it, go get it.Then it happened the second wind, 600m from the line. As I get out of the saddle and gun it, I think, I'm so glad they insist on an ambulance for the club league. I can't feel my legs anymore. I pass the SDCC rider like it was a dream, I pass my clubmate like we are on a club spin and taking the piss. My body can't feel anything. I come round the final bend and realise it, I'm there, I've won a race, it's happened.

I go to raise my arms for the photo and I barely raise one and the bike barely stays standing. It was no glamorous photo but I earned that win.

This isn't in anyway related, I was just reliving my glory days that only happened 2 years ago :pac: without drugs (bar insulin)

Bambaata

@CramCycle any excuse to drag that out :rolleyes:

People will always cheat, the report issued was funny reading, seems he spiked the supplement he was taking so as to try blame it probably not realising Sport Ireland had bought an untampered version and didnt find some of his tubs ingredients. It will be interesting if he tries to come back, will people give him any respect or might he be shunned into stopping completely. I know i wouldnt work with him if i was in a break in a race with him, which i could be by the time he's back as ill be 40 then

daragh_

CramCycle wrote: »

Not casting aspersions but some of the ICVA league performances are, hmmm, inspirational.

Ah here - stop stalking my Strava

Seriously though - from observation a lot of the top tier IVCA Racers are people who've been racing at the pointy end of Irish competitive cycling for decades and still maintain the training regimes to support that - as Taxuser mentions.

average_runner

CramCycle wrote: »

Not casting aspersions but some of the ICVA league performances are, hmmm, inspirational. There are some people who'd dope to win a local athletics meet or a GAA division 3 league match in Longford. This is hardly the strangest thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm competitive but I want to know it was me who bet you. Doping has to be so mentally empty. At that level it's not a survival thing.

On the same note, not sure I care anymore. As for the Rugby comment. All I'll say is a 120kg, north of 200cm, travelling at a sprint speed that would be competitive at a national, possibly European level in athletics, says all it has too.

Probably a ego or self image thing.

Large bottle small glass

It's been my experience people are very critical/indignant/take high moral ground when a cheat is remote from them be that some amateur they don't know or a professional(even then exciting racers are a step up from the less stylish ones).

The bar isn't quite as high when it's closer to home.

My memory from last time is a circling of the wagons in certain quarters but it might be my old age

TGD

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

It's been my experience people are very critical/indignant/take high moral ground when a cheat is remote from them be that some amateur they don't know or a professional(even then exciting racers are a step up from the less stylish ones).

The bar isn't quite as high when it's closer to home.

My memory from last time is a circling of the wagons in certain quarters but it might be my old age

Yes indeed. We have a guy in Cycling Ireland's Hall of Fame who was caught twice!

Chips Lovell

I don't think you can get any more close to home than someone you've raced against?

dahat

I've also had a one place bump as a result of this!!!

It is also the best result i had this year.

Large bottle small glass

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't think you can get any more close to home than someone you've raced against?

A clubmate/friend or someone who sponsors cycling

CramCycle

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

It's been my experience people are very critical/indignant/take high moral ground when a cheat is remote from them be that some amateur they don't know or a professional(even then exciting racers are a step up from the less stylish ones).

The bar isn't quite as high when it's closer to home.

My memory from last time is a circling of the wagons in certain quarters but it might be my old age

I would disagree, having been there on the day. both IADA and CI supported the last rider I know of but only in so far as they would any rider in that they treated him as innocent until proven guilty as anyone should be but there was no circling of the wagons and he got in other less publicised trouble for taking part in events, even social ones without insurance and CI came down hard on him for that as he was on suspension at the time. In fact there case on the day had every corner covered and they had repeatedly given him the out to accept the findings on multiple occasions.

I think the only thing that went was in poor form there was the other side went after everyone involved after the fact even though they were simply doing a test and not taking a side, in fact the lab analyst pointed out flaws in there own test and issues with the chain of custody with the meat provided for testing, and that they them selves were not satisfied with it if they had been asked to do anything other than test the meat provided.

The independent judge of the investigation was the now famous for less admirable reasons Seamus Woulfe who I found a nice person to deal with in the past. In the room on the day of the appeal, both IADA and CI went for him with knives drawn, and anyone who he had hired in the same fashion. He deserved it but i thought trawling through the lab analysts social media profiles and using the fact that he referred to himself as a scientist and a cyclist as some how an implication he was pro doping was disgraceful considering he was very mush a known advocate of anti doping.

Macy0161

On more US based forums, there's quite a lot of discussion of people being medically prescribed testosterone, and whether it's doping, impact on performance etc. I've no idea whether medical prescription of it is common here, and whether that is an impact in masters/ vets racing?

However, on this guy, some of the comments around behaviour at the end of the race were interesting.

CramCycle wrote: »

On the same note, not sure I care anymore. As for the Rugby comment. All I'll say is a 120kg, north of 200cm, travelling at a sprint speed that would be competitive at a national, possibly European level in athletics, says all it has too.

All pro sports, and high profile amateur sports have the same questions around them for me. Or rather, I never understand "cycling is dirty I'd never watch that, move over while I watch this rugby/ football/ tennis/ golf".

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

All pro sports, and high profile amateur sports have the same questions around them for me. Or rather, I never understand "cycling is dirty I'd never watch that, move over while I watch this rugby/ football/ tennis/ golf".

Indeed but you are looked at with disdain if you point out the clear unbelievably low body fat % of some of our national sports heroes, Tennis and the "holidays" that many of the top players had to take and so on. But as I said before, its not at that level only and it has permeated most levels of most sports, from chess with concentration enhancers, to the lad in A4 down at the Frank O'Rourke who was sucking on an Asthma inhaler like it was a bottle of water in front of the comms (as if he was Team Sky in their hay day) and team cars calling out for POMs across the race radio at stage races up North.

This said, I am of the opinion now that unless I see it in the rider beside me, I am ignoring it because if you go down that rabbit hole, for me at least, you can enjoy nothing.

fat bloke

CramCycle wrote: »

This said, I am of the opinion now that unless I see it in the rider beside me, I am ignoring it because if you go down that rabbit hole, for me at least, you can enjoy nothing.

For me it's very simple. If I'm faster it's thanks to my training. If they're faster, they're clearly doping.

CramCycle

fat bloke wrote: »

For me it's very simple. If I'm faster it's thanks to my training. If they're faster, they're clearly doping.

Some weekends everyone is doping, other weekends I am only suspicious of one or two :P

MangleBadger

CramCycle wrote: »

Indeed but you are looked at with disdain if you point out the clear unbelievably low body fat % of some of our national sports heroes, Tennis and the "holidays" that many of the top players had to take and so on. But as I said before, its not at that level only and it has permeated most levels of most sports, from chess with concentration enhancers, to the lad in A4 down at the Frank O'Rourke who was sucking on an Asthma inhaler like it was a bottle of water in front of the comms (as if he was Team Sky in their hay day) and team cars calling out for POMs across the race radio at stage races up North.

This said, I am of the opinion now that unless I see it in the rider beside me, I am ignoring it because if you go down that rabbit hole, for me at least, you can enjoy nothing.

There are sports out there where doping is prevalent. Or we have seen exposed, cycling, mma, baseball, swimming. And definitely in mma we find people getting caught all the time

Why do we never see rugby/football players caught? Or it is very rare if we do. Do you think it's just the level of money involved allows for better doping plans?

CramCycle

MangleBadger wrote: »

There are sports out there where doping is prevalent. Or we have seen exposed, cycling, mma, baseball, swimming. And definitely in mma we find people getting caught all the time

Why do we never see rugby/football players caught? Or it is very rare if we do. Do you think it's just the level of money involved allows for better doping plans?

I was at a conference many years ago where the Chelsea team doctors were describing infusing Didier Drogba with his own stored blood to increase healing time and help with an injury and to keep his energy levels up. What they had described was plain as day blood doping. When my colleague pointed this out, they seemed genuinely confused, and most of those at the conference seemed shocked at the suggestion. In this regard, how many players are doping without realising it as their own team doctors are misinforming them. Wilful ignorance as much as anything. Brian O'Driscoll admitted taking painkillers to get through the matches and that if you didn't, you wouldn't make it, this is doping and fair play to him for admitting it but no one made a big deal about it.

Bambaata

The public and media dont seem to care about the likes of soccer etc. There was a very interesting article about Leicester Citys medical programme for their premier league title and how others have also done similar. From memory it suggests Liveroool did it last year and hence wont win the premier league this year as the toll on players is too much to keep it going through another season. I think it largely was to do with extreme levels of caffeine amongst other things

Captain Havoc

Not related to this but I have a friend, he's a nice guy but waaaay too competitive. I won't play him in anything because he will cheat, he can't stand losing and cheating is a compulsion. I even caught him cheating in top trumps FFS, he just can't help it. On the other hand, away from anything involving competition, he'd do anything for you.

Macy0161

MangleBadger wrote: »

Why do we never see rugby/football players caught? Or it is very rare if we do. Do you think it's just the level of money involved allows for better doping plans?

A number of reasons...

• Don't test don't find. Or don't effectively test, don't find
• In some cases, like Operación Puerto, don't bother investigating the footballers and clubs, tennis players implicated. Just focus on the easy fall guy sports like cycling.
• Things that are doping in cycling, aren't considered doping in other sports. Cram mentions an example. In a football context, they mention injections all the time in press conferences without an eyebrow being raised. Cycling has a no needles policy! It's an old Robert Millar quote "a footb
  aller takes a cortisone injection to play he's a hero, a cyclist does it he's a doper".

The Juventus team in the 90's have pretty much confirmed to have "thick blood".

Personally, as someone who has been watching football since the 80's - the game now is far more predicated on aerobic capacity than it used to be. Notwithstanding the number of matches won in injury time, the effect of being less tired on mental and skill capacity, the fact that the trend is away from squad rotation (compared to the 90's).

Cycling fans search for often often non-existant dots to join - football fans can't see them in front of their eyes. Mainly because "game of skill".

wpd

Doping is cheating, just because it may go on unpunished in other sports doesn't make it
any more acceptable in cycling.

Let football, tennis and rugby look after their own sports, their failings arent an excuse for practices uncovered in cycling since the 1980s by numerous teams on a systematic basis.

there are still many practices in cycling that need looking at
Barne Riis an admitted doper running a team??
Lotto Jumbo using Ketones? UCI report on high usage of tramadol in pro cycling?

And that is just the ones we can see.

What are the current preferred methods or is it the usual old reliable's and fools thinking they can get away with it in the short term, it's been a while since I've done any reading on the subject.

If I recall one young lad was done for EPO earlier in the year, could have be Mexican and had signed for EF if I recall.

Haven't heard what came about after the raid on Arkea's hotel at the tour that time.

Is the testing able to catch everything currently being done in terms of doping, have my suspicions it isn't and is only going to catch the fools or the ones without big bucks.

Large bottle small glass

CramCycle wrote: »

but only in so far as they would any rider in that they treated him as innocent until proven guilty as anyone should be .

Except the butcher it seems.

Ignoring the Mickey Mouse analysis the amateur hour around the chain of custody you could hardly make up.

The entire defence was based on evidence gathered by the Accused. No receipt, wrong bags....

A customer in the shop who I don't know but who works in department told me the meat comes from...

For years since I read report but it was enjoyable over lunch

CramCycle

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

Except the butcher it seems.

Ignoring the Mickey Mouse analysis the amateur hour around the chain of custody you could hardly make up.

The entire defence was based on evidence gathered by the Accused. No receipt, wrong bags....

A customer in the shop who I don't know but who works in department told me the meat comes from...

For years since I read report but it was enjoyable over lunch

It was a weird event, the analyst said it during examination that he told him (the athlete) that it was a waste of time unless he gave him the name of the butchers and he went and got the meat himself, therefore creating a chain of custody. The athlete would have been better of if he had let the analyst do that and when it was negative shrug and say, well I tried. There was no actual analysis other than the sample was tested and showed positive.

Macy0161

wpd wrote: »

Lotto Jumbo using Ketones? UCI report on high usage of tramadol in pro cycling?

And that is just the ones we can see.

Both of which are not actually banned substances! They're not doping.

Deleted User wrote: »

Haven't heard what came about after the raid on Arkea's hotel at the tour that time.

I've no doubt those that want to are ahead of the testers, but in that case I think that's because there was nothing in it. Saline in the room of someone with road rash?

wpd

Macy0161 wrote: »

Both of which are not actually banned substances! They're not doping.


I've no doubt those that want to are ahead of the testers, but in that case I think that's because there was nothing in it. Saline in the room of someone with road rash?

I never said they were doping i said they were practices that need looking at.

TGD

Macy0161 wrote: »

On more US based forums, there's quite a lot of discussion of people being medically prescribed testosterone, and whether it's doping, impact on performance etc. I've no idea whether medical prescription of it is common here, and whether that is an impact in masters/ vets racing?....

I think it's very difficult to get a TUE for it. You must have a very obvious medical condition - a problem with the pituitary gland or testicle, a tumor some congenital disorder. Having naturally-low testosterone is not enough. But these things change so don't take my word for it.

magicbastarder

lawrencesummers wrote: »

untold harm to yourself for the sake of a cheating your way to a medal at what is essentially a Micky mouse competition takes the personality of a strange strange person.

i'm not in any way trying to justify what he did, but it can be strange what can be important to people.

i'll see if i can dig out the article, but there was one a couple of years ago about a growing demand for a loose bunch of marathon investigators due to an increasing amount of cheating in marathons.
people would pay others to run marathons for them, and cheat in other ways, and not at a competitive level. sometimes just so they could brandish a cert showing they'd run a marathon in a sub four hour or three and a half hour time, etc.

lawrencesummers

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not in any way trying to justify what he did, but it can be strange what can be important to people.

i'll see if i can dig out the article, but there was one a couple of years ago about a growing demand for a loose bunch of marathon investigators due to an increasing amount of cheating in marathons.
people would pay others to run marathons for them, and cheat in other ways, and not at a competitive level. sometimes just so they could brandish a cert showing they'd run a marathon in a sub four hour or three and a half hour time, etc.

It’s just terribly sad that people think such things matter.

I’ve competed around Europe in a sport that isn’t regulated for drugs at the lower levels, some days I came back with medals, other days nothing and I was never disappointed to lose, I was happy to be able to compete, to learn and have a chance to improve, to have the ability to put myself forward for it. I’ve come back with injuries requiring surgery, lost decisions to home town refs and stood on a few podiums. Happy with all of it and the results were never the motivation, the need to win at that level should only exist at pro level.

I competed here and lost to someone I know was using roids, a polish lad living here for years that was thrown out of his club because he was caught injecting them. That loss doesn’t bother me in the slightest, I know I was clean and did my best, he went onto medal but the guys a cheat and everyone knows it, the medals I have thrown in a drawer somewhere are honestly earned and that means much more to me.

magicbastarder

there's are family friends of hours, three siblings in the family; one made it to elite level and competed in the olympics, one nearly made it to olympic level, and the third has competed at pretty much the top level in his sport. and they're the most relaxed bunch of people you could meet.

my wife described a conversation with their parents as like being at an entmoot.

eeeee

I think it's incredibly and indefensibly pathetic. A middle aged man doping to win a championship that means nothing, in a sport that is not nor can it ever be a career for him. And to win what?! A 40+ champs?
He wasn't some young rider trying to catch selectors or pro teams eyes as they embark on a pro career,* but a pathetic, middle aged 40 something doper with nothing to gain but his own twisted vainglory.
The last doper was the same.

It's just so pathetic.

I think in these cases where there were no mitigating circumstances they should be banned for life. They deliberately and intentionally cheated, without any justification or mitigating factors. Why have the likes of that kind of arsehole back? They're proven to be pathetically useless and damaging to the sport.

In response to the why aren't rugby, GAA and others aren't seeing loads of doping evidence, CI/cyclists test more than any other NGB or sport: https://www.sportireland.ie/sites/default/files/media/document/2020-04/antidoping-review-2019.pdf


*ETA not that this is justifiable but at least the motivation to do it is vaguely understandable

CramCycle

I recall that being suggested before, under a certain age the ban would be 5 years, over a certain age, it's for life. The 5 years would be reduced if they named anyone who brought them into it and could give evidence. It would require more thought.

G1032

eeeee wrote: »

I think it's incredibly and indefensibly pathetic. A middle aged man doping to win a championship that means nothing, in a sport that is not nor can it ever be a career for him. And to win what?! A 40+ champs?

So this isn't the first time in this thread that the assertion has been made that the M40 means nothing.
Ask G Boland who came 4th if it meant nothing.
Ask all the riders who took to the start line of a 133km race after a long seasons training and racing that would have started back the previous November if it meant nothing.
It does mean something.. It's a National Championship RR that most racing riders in Ireland would never have a hope of winning because they're just not good enough.
The race itself seems to be getting very unfairly belittled here a bit by some posters.

Eamonnator

eeeee wrote: »

I think it's incredibly and indefensibly pathetic. A middle aged man doping to win a championship that means nothing, in a sport that is not nor can it ever be a career for him. And to win what?! A 40+ champs?
He wasn't some young rider trying to catch selectors or pro teams eyes as they embark on a pro career,* but a pathetic, middle aged 40 something doper with nothing to gain but his own twisted vainglory.
The last doper was the same.

It's just so pathetic.

I think in these cases where there were no mitigating circumstances they should be banned for life. They deliberately and intentionally cheated, without any justification or mitigating factors. Why have the likes of that kind of arsehole back? They're proven to be pathetically useless and damaging to the sport.

In response to the why aren't rugby, GAA and others aren't seeing loads of doping evidence, CI/cyclists test more than any other NGB or sport: https://www.sportireland.ie/sites/default/files/media/document/2020-04/antidoping-review-2019.pdf


*ETA not that this is justifiable but at least the motivation to do it is vaguely understandable

I agree with most of what you say.
The phrase, that I put in bold, is pathetic.

eeeee

I agree that I was too harsh on it meaning nothing, apologies for that.
I meant it as in the M40 champion isn't going to go on to a pro career or launch themselves into a career as a cyclist, in the way the elite national road race would.

lawrencesummers

eeeee wrote: »

I agree that I was too harsh on it meaning nothing, apologies for that.
I meant it as in the M40 champion isn't going to go on to a pro career or launch themselves into a career as a cyclist, in the way the elite national road race would.

In the greater scheme of things it’s pretty meaningless, it doesn’t mean nothing but winning it doesn’t mean a great deal to be honest.

It’s being competitive at a hobby.
It’s second division league of Ireland level soccer. If even.

CramCycle

I wouldn't dope but I'd ride over your corpse to get points in a club league race :eek: everyone's competitive edge is different.

Taxuser1

lawrencesummers wrote: »

In the greater scheme of things it’s pretty meaningless, it doesn’t mean nothing but winning it doesn’t mean a great deal to be honest.

It’s being competitive at a hobby.
It’s second division league of Ireland level soccer. If even.

i'd agree with the lad before you who said it does mean a great deal. its the same amount of sacrifice and hard work as young lads are doing against their age group and to do well in a National Champs does mean a lot.

when you take into account the fact many of us work 40+ hour weeks, have kids, have to do our training before they get up or have gone to bed, sacrifice drinks with the lads or just watch the food and weight, slowing metabolisms, that's what makes it so much more special in my opinion, we're not sitting around on our playstations recovering for Mondello. every spare minute counts because there are no easy ways to win what is essentially an A1 race. i think it's belittling it by calling it a hobby - sounds to me you're not a racer yourself.

eeeee

Well if you're not a professional cyclist it's definitely a hobby. And I say that as someone who races and has 2 gold elite national medals and a few of other colours. It's a very involved hobby, but a hobby nonetheless, and will never be anything else for 99% of us unless you're a teenager/early 20's and good enough to make it professionally.

lawrencesummers

Taxuser1 wrote: »

i'd agree with the lad before you who said it does mean a great deal. its the same amount of sacrifice and hard work as young lads are doing against their age group and to do well in a National Champs does mean a lot.

when you take into account the fact many of us work 40+ hour weeks, have kids, have to do our training before they get up or have gone to bed, sacrifice drinks with the lads or just watch the food and weight, slowing metabolisms, that's what makes it so much more special in my opinion, we're not sitting around on our playstations recovering for Mondello. every spare minute counts because there are no easy ways to win what is essentially an A1 race. i think it's belittling it by calling it a hobby - sounds to me you're not a racer yourself.

I don’t doubt the dedication that goes into it, which is commendable but it’s still essentially being very dedicated to a hobby and makes the compulsion to cheat your way to a medal particularly sad.

It’s not any different to the hundreds of people in many other amateur sports sacrificing a lot in the pursuit of success. GAA, athletics, boxing, Soccer, Golf etc etc.

No I’m not a racer, but I understand the commitment and requirements to be successful, for a long number of years was competitive at another sport that required hours of training, strict diet, no alcohol, training through multiple injuries and putting many other aspects of life on hold, but I can recognise that it was still a hobby.

Taxuser1

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I don’t doubt the dedication that goes into it, which is commendable but it’s still essentially being very dedicated to a hobby and makes the compulsion to cheat your way to a medal particularly sad.

It’s not any different to the hundreds of people in many other amateur sports sacrificing a lot in the pursuit of success. GAA, athletics, boxing, Soccer, Golf etc etc.

No I’m not a racer, but I understand the commitment and requirements to be successful, for a long number of years was competitive at another sport that required hours of training, strict diet, no alcohol, training through multiple injuries and putting many other aspects of life on hold, but I can recognise that it was still a hobby.

Yeah fair enough. I suppose I personally have treated it as a mark to aim for for a few years so it means more to me. Fairly sad to see it become the stuff of humour because of one coconut.

buffalo

Taxuser1 wrote: »

Yeah fair enough. I suppose I personally have treated it as a mark to aim for for a few years so it means more to me. Fairly sad to see it become the stuff of humour because of one coconut.

I think 'hobby' is a pretty all encompassing term, from something you might do for a couple of hours a month to a passion that consumes your every waking hour outside of your actual job. (Probably have to have some time for family too, but only if they're doing your hobby too.)

CramCycle

I think the point that everyone is in agreement with though is that it is a sh1tty thing to do, it is cheating as they aren't playing to the same rules as everyone else and is essentially theft if they win.

This is my view regardless of it being A4 or the Vuelta, cheating is cheating, and winning while cheating is theft.

I give some minor leeway to the young who are manipulated into it by managers, parents and coaches but even they deserve punishment, although a time limited one as to judge me as the person I was at 21 compared to who I am now I think would be unfair.

After a certain age though, it is inexcusable, no matter the level. If your 35+ it should be a lifetime ban from competitive sport. 25 - 34, a 10 year ban, 18 - 25 a 5 year ban and under 18, a 2 year ban with your name protected and a full investigation to how it happened.

MangleBadger

Sailing would be my main sport. And one of the greatest sailors of all time, Paul Elvstrom made the following quote...

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

Which I think would be pretty apt in this scenario. I want to compete against the best people I can compete against. And I want to win. But I want to have earned that victory.