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permeability/interesting challenge

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    And yet housing estates continue to be gated and built only with entrances that suit cars at the expense of pedestrians.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    And Residents Associations and Councillors put submissions in to get entrances removed from plans all the time.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    it's one of the issues - permeability - which is a flashpoint in regards to the placing of the greenway along the royal canal between the castleknock and coolmine railway stations. people in delwood do not want access to the greenway from the cul de sacs there; one reason is probably valid (woudl make the cul de sacs more attractive for people looking for free park and ride to the railway station), some less concrete (greater crime/antisocial behaviour).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭ McGrath5


    Not far from me, there are railings on the boundary between these 2 estates. If there was a even a gate to facilitate pedestrians it would help to alleviate the appalling levels of school traffic in the area. What could be a potentially 10 minute walk to the local secondary school is currently a 27 minute walk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,508 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    the planning guidelines have improved - most of the new estates around here have some permeability to local facilities, though not necessarily between different estates.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    McGrath5 wrote: »
    Not far from me, there are railings on the boundary between these 2 estates. If there was a even a gate to facilitate pedestrians it would help to alleviate the appalling levels of school traffic in the area. What could be a potentially 10 minute walk to the local secondary school is currently a 27 minute walk.

    According to Google that's a 2.5km journey from one road to the other - which is not even 10m away.

    "Shure why does that matter, don't you have your car anyway ?"

    Scandalous that backward bulls**t has been standard practice by developers and endorsed by our backward councils and planning authorities for decades.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,125 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    Theres a spot on the Snugborough Road not far from Weatherspoons in Blanch where you see people hopping a 2m high wall from an estate the other side. Not just children or teenagers, have seen adults do it too so they can get access to shops.Not sure how long the walkaround would be but probably a fair distance as the same wall runs all along the Snugborough Road for a good few hundred metres.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    yeah, worst case scenario for someone living in summerfield, it adds 1.5km to a walk to get to wetherspoons.
    i suspect the sheer number of people who would walk through the estate would be what would prevent a pedestrian gate from happening; especially people leaving wetherspoons at night and walking back to roselawn and the surrounding area. i can't see a gate being put in there any time soon.

    my mother walks through coolmine woods when she wants to walk to the shopping centre.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,125 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    yeah, worst case scenario for someone living in summerfield, it adds 1.5km to a walk to get to wetherspoons.
    i suspect the sheer number of people who would walk through the estate would be what would prevent a pedestrian gate from happening; especially people leaving wetherspoons at night and walking back to roselawn and the surrounding area. i can't see a gate being put in there any time soon.

    my mother walks through coolmine woods when she wants to walk to the shopping centre.

    yeah I think these things are always based on estate v estate politics. Those closest to where a pedestrian gate might go dont want it to the detriment of everybody else further away. It always seems to be a case of the desires of the few trumping the needs of the many.

    When you think of it its a bit mad that people in estates like Summerfield have 100+ shops in the shopping centre available to them but the best way to get there is by driving, not by walking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭ McGrath5


    Duckjob wrote: »
    According to Google that's a 2.5km journey from one road to the other - which is not even 10m away.

    "Shure why does that matter, don't you have your car anyway ?"

    Scandalous that backward bulls**t has been standard practice by developers and endorsed by our backward councils and planning authorities for decades.

    I agree its crazy, forgot to mention, in my example an anti climb paint is applied to the railings, meaning you're hands and clothes would get destroyed if you tried to traverse it!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,134 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    McGrath5 wrote: »
    What could be a potentially 10 minute walk to the local secondary school is currently a 27 minute walk.

    Anyone who won't do a 27 minute walk will not do a 10 minute walk either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,449 ✭✭✭✭ Stark


    Anyone who won't do a 27 minute walk will not do a 10 minute walk either.

    BS


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Anyone who won't do a 27 minute walk will not do a 10 minute walk either.

    It makes a big difference to a lot of people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,125 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    Peregrine wrote: »
    It makes a big difference to a lot of people.

    especially older people who would be able for a short walk but not a longer one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,449 ✭✭✭✭ Stark


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    especially older people who would be able for a short walk but not a longer one.

    Or people who simply do not have the time for a 54 min round trip to where they need to get to but do have time for a 20 min trip. I'm young, fit and healthy and enjoy walking places but quite often I'll choose the car instead of the 55 min walk due to time pressure whereas for a 20 min round trip walk, the car is not worth the hassle.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    placing this in a dublin context - anyone who wouldn't be willing to walk from fairview to o'connell bridge would also balk at walking from connolly station to o'connell bridge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,125 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    Stark wrote: »
    Or people who simply do not have the time for a 54 min round trip to where they need to get to but do have time for a 20 min trip. I'm young, fit and healthy and enjoy walking places but quite often I'll choose the car instead of the 55 min walk due to time pressure whereas for a 20 min round trip walk, the car is not worth the hassle.

    yeah thats very true, a 20 minute round trip is about the upper limit most people will walk before they decide to take the car instead. People are tied for time and dont have almost an hour to walk to the shops and back. Ultimately bad permeability results in more car use for what could otherwise be a 10 minute walk.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    it's one of the issues - permeability - which is a flashpoint in regards to the placing of the greenway along the royal canal between the castleknock and coolmine railway stations. people in delwood do not want access to the greenway from the cul de sacs there; one reason is probably valid (woudl make the cul de sacs more attractive for people looking for free park and ride to the railway station), some less concrete (greater crime/antisocial behaviour).

    Easy enough to test. Record the issues for 3 months before you open it up, then open it for 3 months and record any incidents. If there a increase in negative activity, (parking or antisocial or crime) let them close it again.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    well, you could directly compare crime rates in brompton with the delwood cul de sacs; the brompton cul de sacs are cul de sacs for cars, but open onto the green for pedestrians, so a good proxy for the potential issues in delwood.
    so if that *is* a genuine issue, you'd see burglars, etc., favouring brompton over delwood already.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    well, you could directly compare crime rates in brompton with the delwood cul de sacs; the brompton cul de sacs are cul de sacs for cars, but open onto the green for pedestrians, so a good proxy for the potential issues in delwood.
    so if that *is* a genuine issue, you'd see burglars, etc., favouring brompton over delwood already.

    Not the same. There really isn't any through traffic there in the same way you get by opening up the canal.

    You can sell the idea of opening up access in most of these situations by running a fair trial run. But most non resident won't agree to this, which is interesting.

    For sure the design of many new estates is poor they don't plan good cycling or walking routes. But if you want to avoid using the car why choose to live in a location with poor accessibility. It would make more sense to just move to somewhere with easy non car access to local amenities.

    Another solution is cycling. Have an old hack bicycle in the garden for popping to local shops. Shrinks all distances.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,134 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    yeah thats very true, a 20 minute round trip is about the upper limit most people will walk before they decide to take the car instead. People are tied for time and dont have almost an hour to walk to the shops and back. Ultimately bad permeability results in more car use for what could otherwise be a 10 minute walk.

    A 10 min walk is not a 20 minute round trip though, unless you're doing no more than posting a letter. At very least it's 25 mins, and that's assuming you can do whatever you're going for in 5 minutes. Usually it's more, and you're running the risk of meeting someone you know and simply cannot avoid having at least some chat with. So fior anyone who is time-poor, 10 min walk each way isn't viable either.

    And as soon as you start factoring age / fragility into it - a 10 minute walk for me is probably a sub-5 minute walk for many on here. I'm not even all that old yet, just careful of my knees and ankles. So what you'd see as perfectly acceptable permeability, I see as not as all. Case in point: there's a supermarket near one of my current offices. Others in the team get there in literally 5 minutes. I cannot manage the wall that needs climbing, so for me it's a 15 minute walk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    There's a cul de sac in my estate with a 4' high wall across the end, low enough to allow young lads or anyone "dodgy" to hop over but blocks anyone "respectable" or elderly or needing wheels

    Theres also houses facing about 20m of grass, or a 500m walk around to get to the shop, grand in summer, but a sloppy mess now


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭ PhoenixParker


    Shared route
    From Rathborne Walk to Ashington Dale via Glenbrook Rd.

    36 min (2.9 km)

    To see this route visit https://maps.app.goo.gl/NuJaCaizxAsKJjPF6

    As the crow flies it's a few hundred metres.

    They are finally putting in a bridge that will help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,125 ✭✭✭✭ Muahahaha


    A 10 min walk is not a 20 minute round trip though, unless you're doing no more than posting a letter. At very least it's 25 mins, and that's assuming you can do whatever you're going for in 5 minutes. Usually it's more, and you're running the risk of meeting someone you know and simply cannot avoid having at least some chat with. So fior anyone who is time-poor, 10 min walk each way isn't viable either.

    And as soon as you start factoring age / fragility into it - a 10 minute walk for me is probably a sub-5 minute walk for many on here. I'm not even all that old yet, just careful of my knees and ankles. So what you'd see as perfectly acceptable permeability, I see as not as all. Case in point: there's a supermarket near one of my current offices. Others in the team get there in literally 5 minutes. I cannot manage the wall that needs climbing, so for me it's a 15 minute walk.

    Not sure what your point is here on the topic of permeability. Whatever people are doing at the shops takes time regardless of whether they walked there or drove there.

    For people with mobility issues they currently take their car because climbing walls or long walks obviously isnt an option. But if there were pedestrian routes through housing estates instead of walls then they also have the option of getting a mobility scooter to go to the shops. Now they have two ways of getting to the shops whereas the car was the only option previously.

    Good permeability gives people another option that means they dont *have* to take the car. Without it people will always have to drive because there simply is no other viable way to do it without hopping walls like a teenager.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,392 ✭✭✭✭ Spanish Eyes


    Bring up the drawbridge quick!

    Seems to be a particular issue in D15, but it is everywhere. People want to be in their own bunker. TBH given the amount of ASB going on everywhere now, it is an issue.

    There must be ways around it.

    I remember years and years ago my parents lived on Sundrive Road prior to moving elsewhere. There was a huge concrete wall built to separate what they called the "purchase" houses from the council houses at the back.

    Is this still an issue or what?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Shared route
    From Rathborne Walk to Ashington Dale via Glenbrook Rd.
    to be fair, there *is* a canal in the way. often it's just a wall which is unnecessary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭ what_traffic


    Anybody aware of a Council in Ireland who CPO'd a house to knock to create permeability between estates?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    I find the attitudes in Ireland around mobility so backward.

    People don't want walkways / access between estates etc because they're afraid of attracting anti-social behavior. But anti-social behavior is driven away by regular circulation of regular people on the streets, which is eradicated when you start blocking off access and forcing people into their cars.

    People don't seem to get that cars going up and down the road don't provide the social presence necessary to deter anti-social behavior. I'm firmly of the belief that our car centric ways are one of the main reasons why we have much more severe and brazen levels of visible scumbaggery on our streets than other European cities where people are more present on the streets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭ beauf


    Duckjob wrote: »
    ... I'm firmly of the belief....


    You don't have to guess You can just open up a route beside, shops or a pub, nightclub and measure the statistics and and see does crime and anti social behavior increase with more footfall than with less. If it does close it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 284 ✭✭ PreCocious


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Good permeability gives people another option that means they dont *have* to take the car. Without it people will always have to drive because there simply is no other viable way to do it without hopping walls like a teenager.

    That's a point that often seems to be lost. Same in debates about cycling lanes and bus lanes. It's all about adding an option for those that can use that option, and, that modal shift will help - so if there a more pedestrians walking to the shops then that means fewer cars which will help parking at the destination.


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